The Hero System is bland and over complicated

[Markdoc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I guess I don't quite follow. Is it a problem with adding three dice together in their heads? I know people who have a little trouble with that (heck' date=' on my off days I can have trouble with that!). I guess I don't quite understand what's going on. Does the person say, "I have a 12- skill roll, I rolled a 10... I'm not sure if that's lower or not"? How does it become different when a person says, "I have an 8+ skill roll, I rolled a 10..."?[/quote']

 

It's never been a problem with skills - at least in my experience. Rolling under a target number pretty much everyone seems to understand. It's only with combat, where you want to roll low, but a higher CV is better. For some people the idea that you need a bigger number and want to hit a "bigger number" and you do it by taking away a number, so the smaller the taking-away number, the better ... that makes some people go

 

OK, it can be - and I can - explain it better than that, but at core I suspect it's why people who have proven they can add dice rapidly, or do advanced math stumble over this in-game. It's a conceptual thing, I think. And to be fair, I'm always surprised at the degree of maths illiteracy shown on the boards in these discussions: some people seem to think that moving from roll low to roll high will alter combat somehow even though statistically the system remains exactly identical: the bell curve is the same shape, the probabilities are the same. I suspect that difficulty is also conceptual: it's what people are used to thinking about.

 

Saying "It's never been a problem for me" doesn't treally advance the discussion because ... it's never been a problem for me either. In fact, I played Hero for 8 years without it ever occurring to me that it even could be a problem (I should note I was one of those sad individuals who had memorised the THACO tables too ). Buuuut .... during those 8 years I played primarily (almost exclusively, really) with gamers. People who played other systems. Who knew what a "to hit roll" was. People who didn't have to have the concept "player character" or "roleplaying game" actually explained to them. These days half my group is composed of people in their late 30's and 40's who have never played any sort of wargame or roleplaying game before - and the other half are almost all D&D players who are only familiar with D&D tropes. To some of them, I really did have to explain what a "player character" or "roleplaying game" actually were.

 

It's those people I want to make thing easier for and I have introduced "newbie house rules" for my game to make it easier to bring those people in. 'Cos the thing is, once introduced many of them become good and enthusiastic players - they even go out and buy the rules. But I have learnt (and this applies to far more than just gaming) that if you want people to learn how to do something mechanically, it is far, far easier, if you can sell them a simple concept first, so that they not only know what they are doing, but why.

 

Edit: and the "16- instead of OCV 5 approach" strikes me as a good one, not least because it unifies combat and skill rolls. It was suggested on these boards when we had this discussion years ago (maybe even by you) and I must confess I haven't tried it. Partly because we had already switched to roll high and that works fine (and in addition I didn't want to change partway through a campaign) and partly also because most PCs have a lot of OCV/DCV modifying manuevers. Still, maybe I'll try it next campaign and see if it works.

 

cheers, Mark

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

RuneQuest had a POWer stat instead of SANity. It was used with magic' date=' and there was no risk of insanity (as far as I am aware)[/quote']

 

COC uses both POW and SAN.

[dmjalund]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

COC uses both POW and SAN.

Its been a while, but I was sure that the systems had the same number of primary attributes. If SAN didn't replace POW, I couldn't tell you what it replaced.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

RuneQuest had a POWer stat instead of SANity. It was used with magic' date=' and there was no risk of insanity (as far as I am aware)[/quote']

 

I see Susano beat me to it. Starting SAN was 5x Power in CoC, at least way back when I played it. It was not a primary attribute.

 

CoC is a different game, and it appeals to fans of Lovecraft's horror because it maintains a lot of faith to that genre. It doesn't convert it into heroic monster bashing. It is bleak and dismal. Combat is quick and deadly (weak creatures being only a bit more powerful than tough PC's). Sanity loss is a major part of the source material. Maximum SAN is, IIRC, 99 less your Cthulhu Mythos skill. The more you understand about the way the universe really works, the more fragile your sanity becomes.

 

I recall an early CoC adventure indicating it was designed for "experienced investigators", then described as a group of PC's no more than half of whom were brand new.

 

In high school, I recall a player describing the three games we played at the time, Champions, D&D and CoC, as:

 

In Champions, it's pretty much certain your character will survive, and if you play half decently, you'll probably succeed in the scenario.

 

In D&D, if you play half decently, your character will probably survive, and if you play well, you'll probably succeed in the scenario.

 

In CoC, if you play very well, your character has a shot at surviving, and if you play perfectly and get really lucky, you have a shot at success in the scenario.

 

Funny...he was also the guy who always wanted to spend a bit more time researching.

 

If you want a game of heroism where good generally triumphs over evil, that's neither Lovecraftian horror nor CoC.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Its been a while' date=' but I was sure that the systems had the same number of primary attributes. If SAN didn't replace POW, I couldn't tell you what it replaced.[/quote']

 

As Hugh said, it doesn't replace anything. It's an attribute used just for CoC.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

If you want a game of heroism where good generally triumphs over evil, that's neither Lovecraftian horror nor CoC.

 

Chaoism even states that having the PCs encounter mythos creatures all the time isn't in the spirit of the game. I recall them stating you could run for a long time just using cultists and criminals and crazy priests and scientists long before the investigators ever really encounter anything truly out of the ordinary. And when they do, they recommend you make it something minor -- Deep Ones, for example.

 

The "you see a monster, you go insane, everyone dies, game over" is a cliche that doesn't seem to reflect how they want you to play the game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I liked the Cthulhgu writeup. They provide his stats, of course, but the narrative discussion notes that the question is not whether he can kill the PC's, but how many he can snatch up in a combat round. CoC was definitely a departure from the RPG norm at the time (still is, I suppose) in that few significant problems could be successfully solved by combat.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I liked the Cthulhgu writeup. They provide his stats' date=' of course, but the narrative discussion notes that the question is not whether he can kill the PC's, but how many he can snatch up in a combat round. CoC was definitely a departure from the RPG norm at the time (still is, I suppose) in that few significant problems could be successfully solved by combat.[/quote']

 

Yeah, his primary attack power is 1d6 Investigators per Round are snatched up and horribly devoured. Note there's no "to-hit" roll required.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Short of having a dozen Doc Savage caliber* heroes on hand, all equipped with BARs, anti-tank rifles, hand grenades and maybe a protective totem or three, any direct encounter of pulp-era investigators with the big C is likely to end badly.

 

 

*--and that would have to include a few occult types with substantial Mythos knowledge, and maybe an inventor with some kind of improvised atomic device...

[Markdoc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Chaoism even states that having the PCs encounter mythos creatures all the time isn't in the spirit of the game. I recall them stating you could run for a long time just using cultists and criminals and crazy priests and scientists long before the investigators ever really encounter anything truly out of the ordinary. And when they do, they recommend you make it something minor -- Deep Ones, for example.

 

The "you see a monster, you go insane, everyone dies, game over" is a cliche that doesn't seem to reflect how they want you to play the game.

 

It's also not how we ever played the game: chances are good that if you encounter mythos creatures in game a) you're going to die and you've already failed.

I think the goal - certainly how published adventures are written - is that the players know that over time their PC's sanity will degrade and that if you take too many risks, degrade faster. The overall feeling this gives is a kind of "against the clock" feeling, without any actual clock. It's just that the players know that they only get get so many shots at the ring. It's not like D&D, where if things are going bad you can always pull out, heal up and come back for another go. In addition, there's often the temptation that you can try to use mythos magic, which offers the possibility of blasting your way through the opposition ... but also the certainty that if you do it'll cost you dearly. The only question is how dearly.

 

CoC is not, I think a game for long-term campaigning, where characters develop over years of play. It's more a defined story arc game where you play a scenario through. If you survive ... you win and get to retire. If not ... well, not. properly GM'ed though it can be a blast and quite a different feel from most other games - though it's years since I have played.

 

cheers, Mark

[torchwolf]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Short of having a dozen Doc Savage caliber* heroes on hand, all equipped with BARs, anti-tank rifles, hand grenades and maybe a protective totem or three, any direct encounter of pulp-era investigators with the big C is likely to end badly.

 

 

*--and that would have to include a few occult types with substantial Mythos knowledge, and maybe an inventor with some kind of improvised atomic device...

...and then he reforms, 10 minutes later, only now he's radioactive. [overused CoC joke]

 

I actually played one Call of Cthulhu investigator with a happy end. He had POW 6 so SAN 30, went insane mid-way through first scenario, fell in love with a nurse at the institution he spent the next year, retired from the Mythos forever, and got married, living happy until the Stars Are Right when everything ends anyway.*

 

I think Trail of Cthulhu does the bleak and terrible insights even better, separating it into losing Stability (how close to mental breakdown you are getting) and losing Sanity (how far away from the human perspective you are getting).

Cultists, of course, may have great Stability (passing for normal) but very little Sanity (hey, they think the End Times is a bright future).

 

In a Cthulhu Horror Hero game, there should really be a Sanity Char (similarly to STUN/BODY) and something akin to either acquired Psychological Limitations/Complications of "Alienation vs Humanity" maybe coupled with a KS: Things Man Doesn't Really Want To Know.

 

*or maybe he was snatched away by monsters later in his life to start a scenario for new PCs

[RPMiller]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

properly GM'ed though it can be a blast and quite a different feel from most other games

 

That right there is the key to pretty much every system in existence. It can be the best game system ever devised, but a bad GM can leave you with a horrible impression of the game. The really sad thing is that there appear to be far more bad GMs than good GMs, at least in my experience. My CoC experience has always been really good, because the GMs I've had understand the genre, and know the points that Mark made to be true. You don't play CoC to combat mythos creatures, you play CoC to "'live' the Lovecraftian experience."

[archermoo]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Saying "It's never been a problem for me" doesn't treally advance the discussion because ... it's never been a problem for me either.

 

Sorry for not making it clear enough. When I say that it has never been a problem for me I don't mean that I never suffered from it personally. I mean that I've never had anyone that I've ever gamed with in Hero over the last almost 30 years have a problem with it. Anywhere from newbies at con games that had never played an RPG before, to died in the wool D&D fanatics. I've had people who didn't like having to roll 3 dice and add them together to find out if they've hit or not. But I've never had anyone confused by needing to roll low to hit.

[archermoo]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Now' date=' where's that mocking font when I need it ?[/quote']

 

Ah, the old "Do as I say, don't do as I do" bit. Timeless.

[RexMundi]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Heh, if it works, it never goes out of style.

 

~Rex

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

...and then he reforms' date=' 10 minutes later, only now he's radioactive. [overused CoC joke']

 

I actually played one Call of Cthulhu investigator with a happy end. He had POW 6 so SAN 30, went insane mid-way through first scenario, fell in love with a nurse at the institution he spent the next year, retired from the Mythos forever, and got married, living happy until the Stars Are Right when everything ends anyway.*

 

I think Trail of Cthulhu does the bleak and terrible insights even better, separating it into losing Stability (how close to mental breakdown you are getting) and losing Sanity (how far away from the human perspective you are getting).

Cultists, of course, may have great Stability (passing for normal) but very little Sanity (hey, they think the End Times is a bright future).

 

In a Cthulhu Horror Hero game, there should really be a Sanity Char (similarly to STUN/BODY) and something akin to either acquired Psychological Limitations/Complications of "Alienation vs Humanity" maybe coupled with a KS: Things Man Doesn't Really Want To Know.

 

*or maybe he was snatched away by monsters later in his life to start a scenario for new PCs

 

Alternatively, I could even see a scenario where "superheroes" emerge as "antibodies" to the "infection from Beyond the Stars", and their prospects of success essentially set the tone for the campaign.

[casualplayer]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Never played RuneQuest. Did a few sessions of Call of Cthulhu and hated it, though I did find the skill advancement interesting.

 

My recollection of the play experience:

 

"Something moves in the shadows. Roll to see how much Sanity you lose."

"You see a fish with legs. Roll to see if you go insane."

"You learn an ancient spell that you're not even sure will work. Roll to see if you go insane."

"You learn that the First Mate is trying to summon demons. Roll to see if you go insane."

"Oh. You DO go insane. You black out and the world is a blur for a while. You finally become coherent in a mental hospital, and can only vaguely remember everything that transpired before you lost a grip...."

 

Yeah. Barrel of fun.

 

You must be able to use "squamous" in a complete and meaningful sentence before being allowed to run CoC. Your GM didn't get it. Desperately in need of reading some Lovecraft or at least some REH.

 

The 80's were very condusive to horror and horrible thoughts. Barely staving off the destruction of the world kinda resonated.

[torchwolf]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The 80's were very condusive to horror and horrible thoughts. Barely staving off the destruction of the world kinda resonated.

Alternatively' date=' I could even see a scenario where "superheroes" emerge as "antibodies" to the "infection from Beyond the Stars", and their prospects of success essentially set the tone for the campaign. [/quote']

Do check out Zenith by Grant Morrison if you haven't already...

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Edit: and the "16- instead of OCV 5 approach" strikes me as a good one' date=' not least because it unifies combat and skill rolls. It was suggested on these boards when we had this discussion years ago (maybe even by you) and I must confess I haven't tried it. Partly because we had already switched to roll high and that works fine (and in addition I didn't want to change partway through a campaign) and partly also because most PCs have a lot of OCV/DCV modifying manuevers. Still, maybe I'll try it next campaign and see if it works.[/quote']

 

OK, I follow you now.

 

The reason I do it the way I do (tell the players that their OCV is not 5, it's 16-) is because I consider the whole 11+OCV thing to be part of the chargen math, which rarely needs to come up in play. I don't tell players "Take your OCV, add it to 11, subtract your opponent's DCV, and try to roll that number or less on 3d6" any more than I tell them, "Your armor piercing EB costs 5 points per 1d6 times 1 + 1/2, therefore your 10d6 AP EB costs blah blah blah." Most of the time, they don't need to know that during play. They just need to know that they can do 10d6 of AP damage, and they just need to know to roll low on 3d6.

 

Check out the combat worksheet that I posted up-thread, if you haven't already. Putting together something like that for your players (or having them to it for themselves) can be very useful in the game, especially for characters who have a lot of different options in combat. I've done it that way at con games forever, and it works really well even for the rawest newbie.

[teh bunneh]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

When you go to a Con and you see a few really obscure RPG being demoed' date=' it is sometimes played by fans of that RPG, but mostly by curious gamers who likes to try stuff.[/quote']

 

When I go to a con (especially a big one, like Gencon), I love trying out new systems. Rarely do I sign up for games that I already know and love (which is why I rarely sign up for Hero games at Gencon). I've found quite a few gems this way (Hollow Earth Expeditions, for one). I've also found a number of stinkers as well, but you take the good with the bad.

[archermoo]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Heh, if it works, it never goes out of style.

 

~Rex

 

Eh, it's more of a case that people like to make rules they think that people should follow, but often feel that it is okay if they don't bother following their rules.

 

And actually it doesn't generally work. People tend to notice and point it out. Kind of like I and a few others have done.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Do check out Zenith by Grant Morrison if you haven't already...

 

Dang time-travelling Brits, stealing my ideas again...

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

The 80's were very condusive to horror and horrible thoughts. Barely staving off the destruction of the world kinda resonated.

Well, maybe the genre just doesn't resonate with me, then. In theory it sounds fun, but in practice I guess I just didn't see that opportunity to stave off anything, and I can't identify with a "hero" who goes insane at the drop of a frickin hat. I can't imagine my own ego being nearly so fragile (but then, I guess I've had a lot of roleplaying to bolster my "well of course there are mutant monsters ready to devour your soul" experience; hey, maybe I should've built a CoC character who was a rolplayer--immune to Sanity loss!), so playing a "heroic" PC who I can't even control as I would my own actions.... I'm used to a character who steps in and makes a little bit of a difference, no matter how small, not one who sits in the spectator seat, makes no difference whatsoever no matter how hard he tries, and is lucky to survive the experience or even remember to tell of it.

 

I guess what it really comes down to is that at the end of the day I want to sit down to some fictional roleplaying in which I can be more heroic than in my mundane, everyday life, not less so.

[Markdoc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Do check out Zenith by Grant Morrison if you haven't already...

 

Love that series. Indeed, it influenced the last champions campaign I ever ran

 

cheers, Mark

[Greywind]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Horror, to be properly done, needs atmosphere. Which tends to be hard to come by.