The Hero System is bland and over complicated

[Escafarc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

That right there is the key to pretty much every system in existence. It can be the best game system ever devised' date=' but a bad GM can leave you with a horrible impression of the game. The really sad thing is that there appear to be far more bad GMs than good GMs, at least in my experience. My CoC experience has always been really good, because the GMs I've had understand the genre, and know the points that Mark made to be true. You don't play CoC to combat mythos creatures, you play CoC to "'live' the Lovecraftian experience."[/quote']

I hated CoC. We only played because 2 of our group were fanatical about the game. As soon as they were no longer regular players with our group we never considered ever playing again.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Wait! Can I play a guy who's insane already? He welcomes horrors from beyond our normal reality, because it provides him with a challenge and will cull out the ignorant, weak-minded masses. BRING IT ON!!!

[Nolgroth]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Wait! Can I play a guy who's insane already? He welcomes horrors from beyond our normal reality' date=' because it provides him with a challenge and will cull out the ignorant, weak-minded masses. [b']BRING IT ON!!![/b]

I think you just described my GM style.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Well' date=' maybe the genre just doesn't resonate with me, then. In theory it sounds fun, but in practice I guess I just didn't see that opportunity to stave off anything, and I can't identify with a "hero" who goes insane at the drop of a frickin hat. I can't imagine my own ego being nearly so fragile (but then, I guess I've had a lot of roleplaying to bolster my "well of course there are mutant monsters ready to devour your soul" experience; hey, maybe I should've built a CoC character who was a rolplayer--immune to Sanity loss!), so playing a "heroic" PC who I can't even control as I would my own actions.... I'm used to a character who steps in and makes a [i']little bit[/i] of a difference, no matter how small, not one who sits in the spectator seat, makes no difference whatsoever no matter how hard he tries, and is lucky to survive the experience or even remember to tell of it.

 

I guess what it really comes down to is that at the end of the day I want to sit down to some fictional roleplaying in which I can be more heroic than in my mundane, everyday life, not less so.

Again, sounds simply like a case of bad GM. If a GM running a Champions game constantly put you up against Dr. Destroyer, Takafones, and the other mega-villains and wiped out your characters every other session would you declare Hero System a horrible system?

CoC is more lethal than many systems (and isn't everyone's cup of tea, no game is), but it should still always offer a chance (one might even say a substantial chance) of success. I know I've played games where half the PCs died or went insane, but we saved the world in the process.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Again, sounds simply like a case of bad GM. If a GM running a Champions game constantly put you up against Dr. Destroyer, Takafones, and the other mega-villains and wiped out your characters every other session would you declare Hero System a horrible system?

CoC is more lethal than many systems (and isn't everyone's cup of tea, no game is), but it should still always offer a chance (one might even say a substantial chance) of success. I know I've played games where half the PCs died or went insane, but we saved the world in the process.

 

Ah. Okay. Well, maybe I could handle that. It was off-putting enough I doubt I'll actively look for an opportunity to try any time soon or anything though.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I'd love to see an unofficial "Call-O-THU-2" scenario for Paranoia. I mean, the Computer is already insane...and the cultists would seem to be yet another secret society...

[TSandman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I see Susano beat me to it. Starting SAN was 5x Power in CoC, at least way back when I played it. It was not a primary attribute.

 

CoC is a different game, and it appeals to fans of Lovecraft's horror because it maintains a lot of faith to that genre. It doesn't convert it into heroic monster bashing. It is bleak and dismal. Combat is quick and deadly (weak creatures being only a bit more powerful than tough PC's). Sanity loss is a major part of the source material. Maximum SAN is, IIRC, 99 less your Cthulhu Mythos skill. The more you understand about the way the universe really works, the more fragile your sanity becomes.

 

CoC is also one of the few games where the Player *wants* to retire his character instead of having him going raving mad in the middle of an adventure (and keep him as an NPC for the GM..)

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I'd love to see an unofficial "Call-O-THU-2" scenario for Paranoia. I mean' date=' the Computer is already insane...and the cultists would seem to be yet another secret society...[/quote']

 

And who knows what's in the depths of R&D.

[TSandman]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

and who knows what's in the depths of r&d.

 

 

traitor!

[Toadmaster]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Chaoism even states that having the PCs encounter mythos creatures all the time isn't in the spirit of the game. I recall them stating you could run for a long time just using cultists and criminals and crazy priests and scientists long before the investigators ever really encounter anything truly out of the ordinary. And when they do, they recommend you make it something minor -- Deep Ones, for example.

 

The "you see a monster, you go insane, everyone dies, game over" is a cliche that doesn't seem to reflect how they want you to play the game.

 

and in fact one of the rules frequently overlooked by the go "insane and die" crowd is the ability to gain SAN, in particular by defeating the minions of the mythos, but also through receiving psychological help. In a well run game SAN will go up and down, not just a slow death spiral to certain insanity. I particularly liked the connecion between Cthulhu Mythos skill and SAN, it was one of those things that kept everyone from becoming an expert about th mythos, bettr to have an unstable academic (possibly a retired PC) who can fill in the gaps for the more stable field investigators.

[Greywind]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

and in fact one of the rules frequently overlooked by the go "insane and die" crowd is the ability to gain SAN' date=' in particular by defeating the minions of the mythos, but also through receiving psychological help. In a well run game SAN will go up and down, not just a slow death spiral to certain insanity. I particularly liked the connecion between Cthulhu Mythos skill and SAN, it was one of those things that kept everyone from becoming an expert about th mythos, bettr to have an unstable academic (possibly a retired PC) who can fill in the gaps for the more stable field investigators.[/quote']Like the Joker?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I'm pretty sure the Joker does not qualify as an "unstable academic"...

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I'm pretty sure the Joker does not qualify as an "unstable academic"...

 

Well, he is unstable, so that's a start.

[prestidigitator]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I think you just described my GM style.

 

Touché! EDIT: Darn! Can't rep at the moment. Heh heh.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Yeah' date=' his primary attack power is 1d6 Investigators per Round are snatched up and horribly devoured. Note there's no "to-hit" roll required.[/quote']

 

Well, in theory he makes a to hit roll, but IIRC, his skill with his attacks was 135% or so, so missing? Not going to happen.

 

Short of having a dozen Doc Savage caliber* heroes on hand, all equipped with BARs, anti-tank rifles, hand grenades and maybe a protective totem or three, any direct encounter of pulp-era investigators with the big C is likely to end badly.

 

*--and that would have to include a few occult types with substantial Mythos knowledge, and maybe an inventor with some kind of improvised atomic device...

 

Running and ramming his head with a ship worked long enough for the characters in the signature story to escape. I did like one scenario's description of protection against Cthulhu that suggested even the Elder Sign was of limited imact - an unscathed portion of the character's body in the shape of the Elder Sign might later be found on close investigation.

 

Horror' date=' to be properly done, needs atmosphere. Which tends to be hard to come by.[/quote']

 

Especially in a room full of cheeto-munching, soda-swilling couch potatoes who don't try to add to the atmosphere. "I wade through the pool of writhing zombie arms". Achieving the atmosphere for a horror game really requires buy-in, including appropriate role play, by all the players. One wisecracking player wrecks the mood for everyone.

[dmjalund]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

try having the main light off with only the gaming table lit up, maybe have mood music at the GMs fingertips

[Netzilla]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

try having the main light off with only the gaming table lit up' date=' maybe have mood music at the GMs fingertips[/quote']

 

With my group that just leads to complaints of not being able to see when they head to the bathroom or fridge or hear the GM or other players talk (or if the music's quiet enough, be annoyed by the unintelligible white noise). Some groups simply aren't built for horror/suspense gaming. I say this as one (of several) in the group that can never resist an obvious joke/pun.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

try having the main light off with only the gaming table lit up' date=' maybe have mood music at the GMs fingertips[/quote']

 

We sacrificed a random player before every play session.

[dmjalund]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

With my group that just leads to complaints of not being able to see when they head to the bathroom or fridge

Have a torch available

[Guest Celt]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

We sacrificed a random player before every play session.

 

I hated the days it was my turn....

[Netzilla]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Have a torch available

 

I'm not trusting SCUBAHero with an open flame!

[Markdoc]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

Especially in a room full of cheeto-munching' date=' soda-swilling couch potatoes who don't try to add to the atmosphere. "I wade through the pool of writhing zombie arms".[/quote']

 

And that's why you have SAN rules - because, quite frankly, anyone who tells you they would not be deeply shaken by coming into contact with zombies is lying, delusional or a total psychopath. In real life, things like combat or exposure to a lot of death stress out even relatively well-balanced individuals embedded in organizations designed to help them cope. Soldiers get PTSD, emergency medics burn out, etc. And that pales into insignificance with what gets thrown at your average CoC investigator. It's hard to imagine what it'd be like to learn that everything you believed about .... well ... everything is a lie and that evil monsters really are coming to get you and everyone you know. It's a pretty safe bet, however that you wouldn't laugh it off.

 

Thus, the SAN rules, which will penalize any investigator stupid enough to try to laugh it off. If the player has any investment in the PC at all, he'll try to avoid putting himself in that position - just like any real person would.

 

cheers, Mark

[archermoo]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

and in fact one of the rules frequently overlooked by the go "insane and die" crowd is the ability to gain SAN' date=' in particular by defeating the minions of the mythos, but also through receiving psychological help. In a well run game SAN will go up and down, not just a slow death spiral to certain insanity. I particularly liked the connecion between Cthulhu Mythos skill and SAN, it was one of those things that kept everyone from becoming an expert about th mythos, bettr to have an unstable academic (possibly a retired PC) who can fill in the gaps for the more stable field investigators.[/quote']

 

The rules for gaining SAN back were not part of the original CoC rules. They were added in later editions. A much needed change.

[megaplayboy]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

My superhero campaign has a therapeutic drug called detromazine, a neurochemical which isolates the portion of the brain where recent trauma registers, and effectively "mutes" the effects of such trauma by about 70-80%. Hyperdetromazine is even more effective(up to 95%), but is indicated only for extreme trauma (such as witnessing the suicide of a spouse, being sexually assaulted by a tentacle beast, encountering one of the many-angled ones, etc.), because it can cause mild brain damage and permanent memory loss. The existence of such drugs does of course have secondary effects on society as well.

[Susano]

Re: The Hero System is bland and over complicated

 

I hated the days it was my turn....

 

Well, if you didn't scream and twist around so much, we'd been able to get the knife in on the first try!