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Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos


sevrick

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

Advantages are summed' date=' never multiplied.[/quote']

Which is kind of a bummer, IMO. I've thought for a long time that the system would benefit by multiplicative Modifiers. But that's a whole different subject; I agree that--short of a fundamental change to the whole system--it should be kept consistent and simple and this requirement of buying Resistant as a Naked Advantage if you want Hardened Defenses against KAs is ridiculous.

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

I would've preferred that if Damage Resistance were removed from the game' date=' it simply be removed completely since it is redundant.[/quote']

If you read the section in "Defensive Powers" on the Resistant Defense advantage, it's obvious the Resistant Protection power could have been (and I agree should have been) completely removed with little effect. The only purpose Resistant Protection has in 6E is to allow you to buy specialty defenses at +50% cost in Power Frameworks, since Steve decided that you can't buy basic specialty defenses in Frameworks by making them Special Powers (RP is a Standard Power).

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

I believe this screwy little rules exception WILL produce similar or identical costs. That's because Resistant Protection has the "Resistant" as part of its Base Cost' date=' to which [i']Hardened[/i] will apply. However, the more fundamental question might be why we still have both the Resistant Advantage and the Resistant Protection Power. I would've preferred that if Damage Resistance were removed from the game, it simply be removed completely since it is redundant.

 

P.S.: NOW we're wandering off-topic. :P

 

Except that it doesn't. Well, depending on what you call "similar".

 

20PD/20ED with Resistant (+1/2), Hardened (+1/4) costs 70.

20PD/20ED Resistant Protection with Hardened(+1/4) costs 75.

 

To me at least that is a significant difference.

 

The Resistant Advantage exists to allow you to add resistance to your innate PD and ED, as well as adding it to other types of protection that do not innately have resistance and which aren't covered by Resistant Protection.

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

Except that it doesn't. Well, depending on what you call "similar".

 

20PD/20ED with Resistant (+1/2), Hardened (+1/4) costs 70.

20PD/20ED Resistant Protection with Hardened(+1/4) costs 75.

 

To me at least that is a significant difference.

Yeah, but if we "correctly" apply the exeption, your first example has to be bought as:

 

20 PD/20 ED [40 Active]

Hardened (+1/4) on 20 PD/20 ED [10 Active]

Resistant (+1/2) on 20 PD/20 ED [20 Base]; Hardened (+1/4) [25 Active]

[75 Total]

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

The Resistant Advantage exists to allow you to add resistance to your innate PD and ED' date=' as well as adding it to other types of protection that do not innately have resistance and which aren't covered by Resistant Protection.[/quote']

So "sell back" your "innate" PD and ED and "re-buy" Resistant Protection instead if all of your defenses are going to be Resistant. As stated on 6E1 p. 275, Resistant Protection can be used to buy any of the Defense types (PD, ED, Mental Defense, Flash Defense, Power Defense), so what exactly wouldn't be covered by it again? The PD and ED of Barriers and Entangles are already Resistant, Damage Negation is considered Resistant, Damage Reduction has it's own cost structure for Resistant versions....

 

The only place I can see your arguments holding up is the difference between the application of Adjustment Powers to the PD/ED characteristics vs. the Resistant Protection Power, and that's a really, really silly reason to keep a redundant system component.

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

Yeah, but if we "correctly" apply the exeption, your first example has to be bought as:

 

20 PD/20 ED [40 Active]

Hardened (+1/4) on 20 PD/20 ED [10 Active]

Resistant (+1/2) on 20 PD/20 ED [20 Base]; Hardened (+1/4) [25 Active]

[75 Total]

 

Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying. Yes, buying PD and ED with the workaround comes out as the same cost as if you were to buy Resistant Protection instead, because you are effectively buying the PD and ED with the Resistant Advantage, and then applying other Advantages to the new total. And since the cost of PD and ED with the Resistant Advantage is the same as the Resistant Protection power, the total will be the same.

 

I though you meant that simply buying PD and ED and applying the Resistant Advantage along with other Advantage(s) as per normal was the identical or similar cost. Sorry 'bout that. :)

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

Nothing has changed since 5th other than how you track it. It's either 3pts for 2 rPD or rED or 1 pt to make 2 PD or ED Resistant. Now, instead of being a power, it is an Advantage, which is more consistent with how defenses are priced. Just like FF now is 2 real points for 2 rPD or rED or *gasp* 1 pt for 1 rPD or rED..

 

I'm not sure why people have gotten so bent about this change - the points are the same (at the base), but how they react to power modifiers is far more consistent. At least that's how I see it. I, for one, welcome our 6E overlords.

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

Nothing has changed since 5th other than how you track it. It's either 3pts for 2 rPD or rED or 1 pt to make 2 PD or ED Resistant. Now, instead of being a power, it is an Advantage, which is more consistent with how defenses are priced. Just like FF now is 2 real points for 2 rPD or rED or *gasp* 1 pt for 1 rPD or rED..

 

I'm not sure why people have gotten so bent about this change - the points are the same (at the base), but how they react to power modifiers is far more consistent. At least that's how I see it. I, for one, welcome our 6E overlords.

 

Because it means that there is an Advantage (Resistance) that is applied in a different fashion than all of the other Advantages in the game.

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

But they did... it's an Advantage. I guess taking it to the extreme would be to eliminate the Resistant Protection power altogether. That would be purity.

That or the opposite: eliminate the Resistant Advantage. Since they chose to muck with Damage Resistance, I'm assuming that's the one they would've done away with if they had dumped one or the other. As-is, the change is kind of half-assed.

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

That or the opposite: eliminate the Resistant Advantage. Since they chose to muck with Damage Resistance' date=' I'm assuming that's the one they would've done away with if they had dumped one or the other. As-is, the change is kind of half-assed.[/quote']

 

Hey I just had this conversation: If there is one thing we do well here in the USA it's "Half-Assed" and "Ass-Backward"rolleyes.gif

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

How so? You apply it just like you might apply Autofire to STR. How is it different? Or Reduced END on your base Running. Same thing.

 

Only if it is being applied by itself. If you are applying it with another advantage it works very differently. Buying:

 

70 20PD/20ED Resistant (+1/2), Hardened (+1/4)

 

Gets you 20 PD and 20 ED that is hardened vs normal attacks, works against the body from a killing attack, but isn't hardened vs a killing attack. To get all 20 PD and 20 ED resistant and hardened vs both normal and killing damage you need to buy:

 

20 20PD

20 20ED

10 Hardened (+1/4) on 20PD/20ED

25 Resistant (+1/2) on 20PD/20ED (Hardened +1/4)

 

75 Total

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

That's not what the rules say. They say you must buy it on both your resistant and non-resistant PD, not that you must buy it twice on your resistant PD. Those are most definitely not the same thing.

 

So what? It has always been true that "Power X" and "Power X + Advantage Y" are separate powers. It does not then follow that buying "Advantage Z" for "Power X + Advantage Y" means you must buy "Advantage Z" on both "Power X" and "Advantage Y". Advantages are summed, never multiplied.

 

I tell you what, take it up with Steve Long. I'm simply passing on what I've seen.

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

Only if it is being applied by itself. If you are applying it with another advantage it works very differently. Buying:

 

70 20PD/20ED Resistant (+1/2), Hardened (+1/4)

 

Gets you 20 PD and 20 ED that is hardened vs normal attacks, works against the body from a killing attack, but isn't hardened vs a killing attack. To get all 20 PD and 20 ED resistant and hardened vs both normal and killing damage you need to buy:

 

20 20PD

20 20ED

10 Hardened (+1/4) on 20PD/20ED

25 Resistant (+1/2) on 20PD/20ED (Hardened +1/4)

 

75 Total

 

Couple of interesting things about this:

 

1. It costs exactly the same points as the Resistant Protection Power with the same Advantages

75 Resistant Protection (20 PD/20 ED), Hardened (+1/4) (75 Active Points)

 

2. Hero Designer does not allow Hardened to be applied to the Resistant Protection Advantage purchased as a Naked Advantage (reason given: Hardened can only be applied to abilities of type defense).

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

It does indeed appear that you need to buy Hardened for both your PD and ED and also on the Resistant Advantage if you want to apply to both your normal and Resistant defenses.

 

As has been borne out above, if you can just put both advantages on PD and ED, it is cheaper than hardening Resistant Protection. It should not cost different amounts to buy the same ability.

 

EDIT: Upon further reflection' date=' I'll have to say that it appears as though Resistance should have been kept as a separate power, rather than being turned into an Advantage. Because it appears as though you are still required to buy it as a separate power (as a Naked Advantage), unless it is the only Advantage you are buying on your defenses.[/quote']

 

But they did... it's an Advantage. I guess taking it to the extreme would be to eliminate the Resistant Protection power altogether. That would be purity.

 

I think the best approach would be to eliminate the Resistant advantage, and change Resistant Protection to be a power that reduces the BOD damage done by a Killing Attack, and costs 1 point for 2 points of Defense. It might also note that this is typically purchased to be equal to or lower than the character's non-resistant defenses, but that this is not required (ie you could have more defenses against KA BOD than against KA STUN).

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

I think the best approach would be to eliminate the Resistant advantage' date=' and change Resistant Protection to be a power that reduces the BOD damage done by a Killing Attack, and costs 1 point for 2 points of Defense. It might also note that this is typically purchased to be equal to or lower than the character's non-resistant defenses, but that this is not required (ie you could have more defenses against KA BOD than against KA STUN).[/quote']

THAT'S a nice idea! Rep if I can.

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

THAT'S a nice idea! Rep if I can.

 

Got him with the rep!

 

Though I am not completely sure that I LIKE the solution. I need to think about it and see if there are bad implications to doing it that way.

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

Well it might sound goofy, but it has to be that way to make the math work out the same to Harden defenses regardless of whether they're PD/ED or Resistant Protection.

 

Character A buys 20 PD / 20 ED Resistant Protection (60 Base Points), Hardened (+1/4) (75 Active Points). In effect, he's paying for Hardened on a +1/2 Resistant Advantage on the base PD / ED.

 

Character B buys 20 PD / 20 ED [for accounting purposes, assume he sells back the base 2 PD and ED and buys the 20/20 as Characteristics as Powers] (40 Base Points), then buys Hardened (+1/4),and Resistant (+1/2) (70 Active points). He then has to buy Hardened (+1/4) on the 20 Resistant points (+1/2 Advantage on 40 Base Points) (5 Active Points). The total cost is 75 Active Points, same as for Character A.

 

I say the RAW are correct; you have to pay the same amount for the same effect.

 

As far as being called out in the rules, see Hardened on 6e147. I think it would be clearer to explicitly state that if a Defense Power is Hardened and Resistant that Hardened needs to be bought again on the Resistant points in order to make the Resistant part of the Defense Power Hardened, however.

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

As far as the OP...

 

After getting over my amusement at a post criticizing Hero Games for excessive typos that itself contained four typos, two words incorrectly not capitalized and three sentence fragments, I noticed that the complaint was actually math errors rather than spelling. As others have pointed out, the example given in the OP was itself in error. I agree with Steve that neither typos nor math errors are excessive, and I wonder how many of the other perceived 'math errors' are in fact mis-understanding of the rules.

 

I do think that the Resistant Advantage listed in the HSB (and other products) is a normal Advantage rather than a Naked Advantage, as a Naked Advantage costs Endurance (unless otherwise ruled by the GM).

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

Well it might sound goofy, but it has to be that way to make the math work out the same to Harden defenses regardless of whether they're PD/ED or Resistant Protection.

 

Character A buys 20 PD / 20 ED Resistant Protection (60 Base Points), Hardened (+1/4) (75 Active Points). In effect, he's paying for Hardened on a +1/2 Resistant Advantage on the base PD / ED.

 

Character B buys 20 PD / 20 ED [for accounting purposes, assume he sells back the base 2 PD and ED and buys the 20/20 as Characteristics as Powers] (40 Base Points), then buys Hardened (+1/4),and Resistant (+1/2) (70 Active points). He then has to buy Hardened (+1/4) on the 20 Resistant points (+1/2 Advantage on 40 Base Points) (5 Active Points). The total cost is 75 Active Points, same as for Character A.

 

I say the RAW are correct; you have to pay the same amount for the same effect.

 

As far as being called out in the rules, see Hardened on 6e147. I think it would be clearer to explicitly state that if a Defense Power is Hardened and Resistant that Hardened needs to be bought again on the Resistant points in order to make the Resistant part of the Defense Power Hardened, however.

 

I think we all understand WHY the goofy rule was made, but it doesn't mean that we have to like it. I really hate systems where things work in a certain way, except for this one instance. It means that most people who assume that hardening a defense that has the Resistant Advantage on it will do it wrong. For that reason alone the push to turn power to advantage should have been abandoned. We all understand it, but again everyone who has not read this thread will get it wrong. Heck HD allows you to write this up wrong and it goes out of it's way to be annoying about writing things up "correctly". I don't like it and I think that it's sloppy rule design. It's published and there's really nothing we can do about it.

 

It's really too bad that the Playtest before release was so limited. We MIGHT have been able to catch little things like this and other things (ie OMCV).

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Re: Hero System Books Have Way to many Typos

 

I think we all understand WHY the goofy rule was made, but it doesn't mean that we have to like it. I really hate systems where things work in a certain way, except for this one instance. It means that most people who assume that hardening a defense that has the Resistant Advantage on it will do it wrong. For that reason alone the push to turn power to advantage should have been abandoned. We all understand it, but again everyone who has not read this thread will get it wrong. Heck HD allows you to write this up wrong and it goes out of it's way to be annoying about writing things up "correctly". I don't like it and I think that it's sloppy rule design. It's published and there's really nothing we can do about it.

 

It's really too bad that the Playtest before release was so limited. We MIGHT have been able to catch little things like this and other things (ie OMCV).

 

What's wrong with OMCV?

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