Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

[Susano]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Should I edit the ridiculous post I did? Would that be cowardly?

 

You could, but it won't affect the quoted replies, so it really won't matter in the long run.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Good on ya. Way to man up.

 

I'm fond of the skill level approach, but my games have always been saturated with higher point levels than would seem obvious by the caps, thus freeing us from slavish devotion to point efficiency. I prefer broader more realistic write ups myself.

 

That said, I have no problem with super agents being at or above spec ops levels.... these guys train to fight freaking superheros

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

What the heck is it about some people's inability to modify published characters. Is it conditioning from D&D where the characters in the Monster Manuals were always seen to be somewhat sacrosanct?

 

This is HERO where one can take apart any NPC or PC and rewrite them to fit your fancy and psych Complications. If an NPC's dex is too high then just lower it. There's no Hero Police that shows up to games to make sure that published characters are unchanged.

 

Tasha

 

Abosutely no published NPC survives intact to appear in my game. If I use them at all I tailor them to my universe.

[Payback]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

What the heck is it about some people's inability to modify published characters. Is it conditioning from D&D where the characters in the Monster Manuals were always seen to be somewhat sacrosanct?

 

This is HERO where one can take apart any NPC or PC and rewrite them to fit your fancy and psych Complications. If an NPC's dex is too high then just lower it. There's no Hero Police that shows up to games to make sure that published characters are unchanged.

 

Tasha

 

I think for the people I game with Tasha that you hit the nail on the head. Dnd, This way. DONE. NO changing.

I think personally this RULES strick adhearance came about during a wargaming phase that we all went through. And with table top war gaming, there is NO option to change, modify etc if you wish to participate in a tournament.

This lead us to getting really sticky about rules, stats etc.

 

For myself the reason I am honestly giving up on all those up there systems (That I have two book shelves 8 feet high 4 feet wide full of), is because the players have all forgotten the GOLDEN RULE! All rules are actually guidelines to be worked with by all parties involved until you are all happy.

Hero system IMO is about modifying, and making and using this set of rules from this book but not that book and one rule from this book to add to this THING.

 

One thing I like to do is read other peoples write ups.

Like reading a good book that gives you idea's and insights and some things you can use for your own works.

I have lots to take away from this thread already. Already starting modding my own team even more then I did before because of some of this discussion.

 

OH and Escafarc.

Isn't is awesome to unveil a villain or group\monster and they are not what some"perhaps they had a peek" of the players expected.(Original write up..)

I have actually had one player in recent memory exclaim that, I was doing it wrong. I didn't know if I should get angry or just laugh.

[Susano]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

For myself the reason I am honestly giving up on all those up there systems (That I have two book shelves 8 feet high 4 feet wide full of), is because the players have all forgotten the GOLDEN RULE!

 

When you choose to get rid of all of those books, feel free to send them to me. I'll find a good home for them!

[Tasha]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

To me the rules are a covenant between the Gm and the Players. Sometimes the GM has to interpret the rules to keep game play moving. I hope that in that case the GM will choose whatever is the most fun for the Players (Not the "will it allow me to win this combat" option).

 

Monsters/Scenarios/Magic Items/NPCs/Dungeons/Adventures/Published Game Worlds etc are all there for the GM to personalize to better accomodate their gaming tastes and needs of the adventure. So personalize away, it makes it more fun when we run into the electrical Zombies that are steam powered and aren't effected by Holy spells. Yeah, I DO like to fight the normal zombie and skeleton, but it doen't mean that I will be upset if you make something new or jigger an old writeup to make an old fave more fun to fight.

 

IMHO what many GM's forget is, They are taking on the role of host for that night's fun. The GM's overriding purpose is to provide a fun/ entertaining spot of gaming for the players. It isn't about the GM's skills at winning combat scenarios, or about the GM's knowledge of the Japaneese Tea Ceremony, or any thing else that has to do with promoting the GM's ego. /rantoff

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

When you choose to get rid of all of those books' date=' feel free to send them to me. I'll find a good home for them![/quote']

 

...right after you've created HERO character sheets for everything in them!

 

Which I'm guessing will take you about 45 minutes.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Payback,

 

Regarding your 9/9/10 response to me:

 

*That's* the kind of maturity and civility the Hero Boards pride ourselves on! Welcome, and don't worry about it. We all get frustrated and take it out on the wrong target sometimes.

 

So, let's talk about great shooters with lower DEX...

 

...on one hand, it's a points efficiency issue; if one way to make a combat-effective build costs significantly less than another, there's a natural tendancy to go that way. On the other hand, you want to remain true to character concept. Ideally these two balance out, but not so much in the real world.

 

One concept I apply in my games is how do 'normal' humans compare to trained individuals (say, a policeman), and a policeman to an elite soldier (SEAL, VIPER agent, etc.) and the elite soldier to PCs (and so on). Establishing a 'typical human' scale up through the ranks helps define SPD, DEX, CV, levels, and so on.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

One concept I apply in my games is how do 'normal' humans compare to trained individuals (say' date=' a policeman), and a policeman to an elite soldier (SEAL, VIPER agent, etc.) and the elite soldier to PCs (and so on). Establishing a 'typical human' scale up through the ranks helps define SPD, DEX, CV, levels, and so on.[/quote']

 

There's a table like that on 6e1 48.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

What the heck is it about some people's inability to modify published characters. Is it conditioning from D&D where the characters in the Monster Manuals were always seen to be somewhat sacrosanct?

 

Tasha

 

I can tell you, I ws one of those people. Not due to Dnd per se, it was, if it was printed then it is the pofficial version, and who am I to agrue with that? (Even though in all books I have, there is a caveat that they tell you to change anything that you want for your games.)

 

Also Payback I believe that also some of the stats are higher because in the beginning, the normal human started out as a 10, so if you want to have a higher ability, then it goes up.

 

As for Viper, I still think of them as goons with technology (sorta like the cartoon version of Cobra), so the vast agents have

10 STR, 11 DEX, 3 PD, 2 SPD 2 CLS and superior arms and armor to have a chance to hit a super with. Also Im running another solo game, so I keep an I towards effectiveness of agents.

[Vondy]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Combat skill levels were always the way for me. It seems more accurate to what is trying to be done anyway. HERO has always been more flexible to me than many others seem to think it is. forget official writeups if you don't like them and create your own.

 

Oh, I agree. I have long built characters to my own standards, with lower dex scores and more skill levels and maneuvers, as opposed to the norm established in published products. But, as GM, I had the luxury of setting the standard for my group. Many players didn't have that luxury, and many GMs simply emulated what was in published products as "boiler plate," hence my comment about "established custom."

[Vondy]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

Should I edit the ridiculous post I did? Would that be cowardly? I admit I did it but don't want to flame this.

I am not even sure I have the strength to come back to read any more responses.

I originally came here to get away from this stress, and in stead I carried it with me.

 

And honestly thanks for the kind way almost all of you handled this. It really does show the caliber of people you are.

 

You owned it, which is admirable. Just move forward and post anew. We all have bad days. Welcome to the boards.

[Vondy]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

What the heck is it about some people's inability to modify published characters. Is it conditioning from D&D where the characters in the Monster Manuals were always seen to be somewhat sacrosanct?

 

I think its a question of use. Most gamers are, despite their personal politics politics, conservative as cats when it comes to habit of mind. They see a set standard and it becomes iron-clad and build to it, evaluate by it, and live by it. With most systems where the game and setting are intertwined like a gordian knot this makes sense. You measure yourself against the monster manual, so to speak. Or, you measure yourself against the write-up of canonical characters. You look at standards for the game and setting and get with the program so you can come out on top. Hero, and other universal systems that allow / require the gamemaster to set all those baselines operate on a different paradigm and allow for more than one habit of mind. This takes some getting used to and, like a student learning abstract mathmatics, some bending of the brain. As a result, especially when you are new to hero and on that steep learning curve, which is steeper for game-masters, there is a tendency to hew to published products and let them set the standard while you get used to the system - and while realization of its full implications set in. As a result, CKC is viewed more as a monster manual - canonical boiler-plate of challenge and design - and one potential iteration. This is compounded by the fact that, once you are ready to the training wheels off, the group has been indoctrinated with the published standard and a gamemaster, unless he is particuliarly convincing, may well be faced with revolt if they pull a crazy ivan and impose a new standard. This is doubly true if the new standard is less powerful, or less efficient, or deemed "wimpy" compared to what's in the books. It took me years of dogged stubborness to convince some of my players the games they were in weren't underpowered because the published books and their standards were irrelevant. Once people twig on X as a benchmark they DO NOT LIKE readjusting their brain to Y.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

There's a table like that on 6e1 48.

Yes, like that table, but scaled to my own vision of whatever Hero campaign I'm running at that time.

[SCUBA Hero]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

As far as modifying published characters/standards, I think it comes down to custom, ease of use, and time.

 

Custom: When starting a new system, most folks tend to play it as written. Once familiar with the system, unless something bugs you enough to change it, inertia tends to keep you using RAW.

 

Ease of use: If I use Standard Superhero guidelines, most published books will tend to work well without much modification. Scrutiny to ensure game-unbalancing elements stay out is reduced.

 

Time: Even if you do enjoy tinkering with rules and characters (as many Herophiles, including myself, do) real life intrudes with other time demands. Sometimes you just can't devote enough time to do your vision justice.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

You are playing at a little lower power level that standard supers in Champions. I like the idea, but in Hero terms, it's much more like Weird Dark Champions than Champions. You are modeling something like Watchmen or Hellboy, rather than something like the JLA or the Avengers. I envy your players, as the game sounds like it could be fun.

 

In most comics, everything is just bigger and more. Saying that someone is an Olympic level athlete is code for he's in really good shape and can play in the big leagues. People like Batman and Daredevil do things that are clearly superhuman physically, but they are said to be normal human beings. The average person does not even figure as an impediment for them. Hell, Daredevil fights a dozen or so Hand ninja at a time, and each of them could take out a squad of conventional soldiers or cops by themselves. It really is just apart of that subsection of the genre. When a Champions book has write-ups where the basic supers package for a non-MA/speedster is DEX 20, SPD 5, that's what they are modeling. I used be irritated by this too, but I handled it on eof two ways.

 

1. Played along and made my characters and NPCs on the same scale using the published material as a guide.

 

2. Took the published characters and lopped off 3-5 points of DEX, a point of SPD, and maybe a few combat levels and played them on my scale.

 

You also may want to take a look at Dark Champions: The Animated Series. It is intended to mod DC Animated universe shows and has some write-ups that seem to align with your way of thinking. It's 5th Edition, but the characters and NPCs are built on fewer points in general, and the stats are in the sweet spot between high-powered heroic and low-powered super. Some of the backstories and concepts are on the silly side, but you can file that stuff off and take the numbers for conversion purposes. I also recommend Dark Champions 5th edition Predators book for that same purpose. It is very grim and gritty and is more high heroic in flavor.

 

If you are deep into this way of thinking, track down 4th Edition Dark Champions and its supplements, especially the ones by Chris Avellone. Again, some work in conversion, but I think right in your wheelhouse. 4th Edition Dark Champions was about vigilantes and low-powered supers taking it to the street and being all Iron Age.

[Checkmate]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

I am a huge fan of low SPD/DEX campaigns too. You can check out my site here where I take Marvel/DC characters and made them to "My Vision". Check out this thread first to get an idea of what I was trying to accomplish and how I blew it.

[Checkmate]

Re: Where are the great shooters with lower dex?

 

If you are deep into this way of thinking, track down 4th Edition Dark Champions and its supplements, especially the ones by Chris Avellone. Again, some work in conversion, but I think right in your wheelhouse. 4th Edition Dark Champions was about vigilantes and low-powered supers taking it to the street and being all Iron Age.

Underworld Enemies by Chris Avellone is absolutely my all time favorite gaming supplement. You can probably pick it up pretty cheap on ebay.