How to understand the SuperHero Genre

[knightwriter]

First let me say that I don't mean any disrespect by this post.

 

I really want to like the superhero genre and I am reading the Champions 6th edition book now. I'm also reading comic books and have played marvel super heroes back in the day, with the same sort of willingness and wanting to love the genre but it sort of escapes me, for lack of a better phrase.

 

I come from a Fantasy background and started with DnD. I am nutso about Fantasy Hero and love how it works. Is it possible to be just too into fantasy to understand or "get" the super hero genre?

 

Is there a way to really appreciate this genre? I read comic books and I'm thinking, "Man, just give the dude a sword or an AK 47 and shred this cape wearing fool." It seems like a lot of problems could be solved in these worlds if people just used lethal force. (I do understand that that is not an option for many heroic minded super heroes.)

 

I find that the only real fun is creating a character and then pitting them against other characters, but duking it out is only fun for so long. If there is a deeper layer to this genre, than I am missing it.

 

Does anyone else feel like this? Maybe you were of the same mind and now have come to appreciate the genre. Please tell me what changed your mind set. I really want to like this genre but it just seems to one dimensional in that characters fight and that is all there is to the genre.

 

Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.

[sinanju]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

I could easily say the same "one dimensional characters that fight, and nothing more" about standard fantasy games. The classic dungeon crawling party, for instance. Even when there's more to the characters than that, it's no guarantee that I'll enjoy it. I've been reading genre fiction for more than forty years--and I don't read "classic" fantasy anymore. I've read so much and so widely in that genre, that there's almost nothing left to interest me. Nothing wrong with the current crop of writers, mind you, but I don't even finish reading the back cover blurb most of the time anymore. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

 

Classic fantasy just isn't my bag any more. And superheroes may not be yours. Sure, superhero stories are implausible. So is most fiction when you get right down to it. And idiot plots are idiot plots, whether it's superheroes or any other genre, and I hate idiot plots. But most "cape-wearing fools" can handle a guy with an AK-47 or a sword. They're invulnerable, fast/strong/skilled enough to survive a sword/Ak-47 wielding foe...else they wouldn't be superheroes. Or to paraphrase Larry Niven's Wizard, "A superhero who can't handle one well-armed thug isn't much of a superhero."

 

Maybe you'd like the WILD CARDS novels and similar fiction. Those involve people with superpowers, but most don't bother with costumes, and few go out to play superhero. It's more "realistic" than classic four-color comics in that simply having superpowers doesn't make you a Hero or a Villain, just someone with powers, and also in that your powers may be pretty bad-ass, but very few characters can't be taken out by a normal person under the right circumstances.

[knightwriter]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

Thanks for your thoughts. You make a great point about idiot plots regardless of genre. I would appreciate more feedback, if possible. I would be especially interested in those who might have shared an opinion like mine, but have since been able to find something they love about the super hero genre.

[assault]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

Some superhero stuff has roots in detective fiction. Other stuff is based on science fiction. Other stuff again is entirely self-referential.

 

The only modern stuff (that isn't aimed at kids) that I read at the moment is Legion of Superheroes, which is science fiction based. It's also, unfortunately, based on decades of previous LSH stories, which means that new readers aren't necessarily going to pick up on all the references. Then again, it's been twenty years since I've read the Legion consistently, so I was walking into it with a fair bit of catching up to do.

 

Apart from the science fiction tropes, it's a big soap opera. I know the characters and I care about them a bit.

 

On the other hand, I would never waste the time necessary to follow the X-Men titles. That shark was jumped a long time ago, IMHO.

 

It's all a matter of taste.

 

PS: I'm also into the old weird stuff from Back in the Day. Stupid plots don't bother me. In fact, I like the ones that make me go "WTF?!"

[Nothere]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

I'm at a bit of a loss as t how to respond. The only real problem you cite is that it just seems strange that after the villians third killing spree the hero dosen't just shoot him in the head. And true that can be perplexing. Though there's no reason you have to follow the I won't kill for any reason mode. Then again as the game is set in a more modern setting where modern sensibilites apply, a it's a crook kill it for the xp is considered a socail no no. But there's no reason you have to take it to that extreme either. The rule came about in comics because people were worried about corrupting the youth, so murderous antiheros were always villians till the late 80's. If it's a question of they just seem shallow, well I'll have to grant you that one. At 32 pages most of which is taken up by a picture, most indivdual comics don't really get into great depth. Sounds like a good excuse for a thread. But again in a roleplaying sence you have plenty of time to explore other facets other than it's a crook hit him. Or if the problem is as Sinanju suggests your just finding the whole thing too over the top, to get into remember your a fan of fantasy. In this case instead of the barbarian in a loincloth stiking the giant monster with a sword, it's the guy from another planet doing it while wearing pajamas. Instead of the old wizard chanting a few words and char broling the goblin hoard with a fireball, it's the guy in the metal suit knocking out the mob of crooks with an energy blast.

 

Without a clearer picture as to what you fnd so off putting, I'm afraid thats the best advise I can give.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

After being a comic fan since 75' I had my first roleplaying experience in 82' with AD&D and it was a load of fun but the core of the rules made it much harder to subdue or opponents than to just kill them. Once players realized this many just gave up and went for the hack-n-hack full immersion experience. Luckily I was introduced to Champions 1st edition soon thereafter and fell in love with the core tenant of the combat engine - Knocking an opponent out can be as easy as killing them. It was still possible to kill (on purpose or by mistake) but it was unlikely unless you were really trying. Codes vs. Killing in superhero comics have many roots but all tend to boil down to 2 flavors: Batman - doesn't want to become what he hates, and Superman - doesn't want to be feared. The power level/skill level disparity that they enjoy compared to many of their allies and enemies is not nearly as common in Fantasy so such codes are not either. Plus, when everyone is usually armed with sharp edged metal weapons it takes more skill to subdue an opponent without killing them vs. just killing them outright.

 

My best suggestion to getting the superhero genre is reading some good comic books. Old Graphic Novels of your favorite characters might be a good place to start.

[Ranxerox]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

As a general rule comic books are a combination identification and fantasy fulfillment. You identify with the poor, nerdy and put upon Peter Parker and fantasize about being the cool, powerful, wise-cracking Spider-Man. You identify with the awkward and frequently overlooked Clark Kent and fantasize about god-like Superman. There are exceptions to this rule. Some characters are pretty much straight up fantasy with little to identify with. I don't think many of identify with Bruce Wayne. At least not Bruce Wayne as an adult, a person could identify with the child who saw his parents die in the alley. But that just shows the the identification and fantasy fulfillment don't have to be in equal portions, one can be much more pronounced than the other (usually in comic books it is the fantasy fulfillment that wins out in these cases).

 

So if you can make a character who on one hand you can identify with and on the other hand has ability or character traits you wish you had, you will probably enjoy playing that character.

[knightwriter]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

Again, thanks for all the input. I do really appreciate you all taking the time to voice your thoughts. I am mulling over now what the real difference is between a fantasy game of defeating the goblins is versus a supers game of beating up the bad guy. Mabye I should be asking what draws one to this genre and see if I can take on those views as well. I just having the darnedest time immersing myself in this genre and I really would like too.

[knightwriter]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

I have been reading some comics and thinking, that would make more sense if I knew who such and such was. Is there a primer sort of comic that delves into the history of specific characters are the Marvel/DC World? That might help with understanding the comics more.

[assault]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

I have been reading some comics

 

What are you reading, may I ask?

[Certified]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

Marvel recently rebooted their New Universe as New Universal you can read the first 6 issues in a collected trade paperback. This is not your typical super hero stuff, nor do I feel it's typical Iron Age crap (before anyone says it) and may give you a different perspective on what a super powered campaign maybe. Ultimately, a super hero game is what you make it. Don't feel constrained to the clichés of the Silver Age. You want a more brutal world go for it but take into consideration the consequences of peoples actions.

 

What draws me to the super hero genre for role playing. The answer for me is rather easy: characters feel more unique and the greater flexibility. In other genres a character is often defined by what gear they have and occupation. In a super hero setting while you could line up 10 characters able to throw a 10d6 Blast every one of them may going about it in a completely different ways and generally to the point what you are seeing and feeling is the effect not the dice. However, build is only part of the equation. Characters are often build concept up this means a personality is almost immediately injected. In fantasy games especially personality is not required and if present is typically because the player wants to expand the experience. Sadly I've met too many hard core D&D types who think giving a character personality or a flaw is something special, even something to be praised for.

[The Main Man]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

First, maybe the genre just isn't for you and that's just how it is. Second, you could approach superheroes by reading about mystical superheroes such as Doctor Strange, Doctor Fate, Thor, or the recent Shadowpact, since they bridge the two genres in certain ways.

[Certified]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

First' date=' maybe the genre just isn't for you and that's just how it is. Second, you could approach superheroes by reading about mystical superheroes such as Doctor Strange, Doctor Fate, Thor, or the recent Shadowpact, since they bridge the two genres in certain ways.

 

Good approach there. Can anyone come up with some good examples that don't come with so much history though? I am a big fan of Hellblazer but I would not call that a superhero setting.

[The Main Man]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

Shadowpact doesn't have a long history, I can say that much. Thor was recently rebooted (ish) for that matter. Doctor Strange and Doctor Fate though, yeah, kinda long history. I almost suggested The Spectre but he's kinda like the Silver Surfer of the DC Universe in my opinion - he's beyond the whole "superhero" thing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

something else to consider...

 

In HERO, no matter what the genre of game, it is always assumed that PC's are the heroes. SuperHEROES is where it started but even if used for a fantasy campaign, in HERO the PC's are expected to protect the innocent even if they don't have any relevant Psych Limitations. Fantasy gaming has it's roots firmly planted in D&D and its 'alignment' system. In many ways it's unique to that system but its influence colors all other games that borrow from it.

[Certified]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

something else to consider...

 

In HERO, no matter what the genre of game, it is always assumed that PC's are the heroes. SuperHEROES is where it started but even if used for a fantasy campaign, in HERO the PC's are expected to protect the innocent even if they don't have any relevant Psych Limitations. Fantasy gaming has it's roots firmly planted in D&D and its 'alignment' system. In many ways it's unique to that system but its influence colors all other games that borrow from it.

 

While the writing seems geared towards you are the good guy in Hero System there is no moral imperative as stated nor is there any mechanical imperative so beyond the implied nature of the characters there is no obligation to adhere to being a hero.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

I love the superhero genre. It's my favorite for gaming, and among my favorites for entertainment generally. There are several elements that really make it speak to me, and perhaps if I go through them that will help illuminate the genre for you.

 

Superheroes are the modern equivalent of the heroes of myth, larger than life, gifted with exceptional abilities, doing battle with villains and monsters. Like all mythology, the superhero embodies, consciously or unconsciously, the values of the culture that created him. Since supers are at their roots a modern American phenomenon, you can see the ideals of America in the motivations that drive these heroes: truth, justice, and the rule of law; the responsibility of the strong to protect the weak; the few standing against all the forces of chaos and destruction; extraordinary beings who consider less gifted individuals to be fundamentally their equals, worthy of respect.

 

Being so gifted, superheroes feel a tremendous responsibility to live up to their ideals, to be symbols and role models. They represent the very best in what humanity can aspire to. Why don't most heroes take up an AK-47 and riddle the enemy who's been hounding them? For the same reason that police don't. They recognize that in a civilized society that's essentially just and fair (and most American superheroes view their country that way, despite its flaws), individuals can't take the law into their own hands, and decide who lives and who dies. The power to make such decisions is reserved for the greater society, for governments and courts of law. Heroes who seek to protect society must also respect its institutions. Even the Batman, grim and ruthless in so many ways, delivers lawbreakers to the law and refuses to kill them. Whether or not you agree with that stand, you have to admire such discipline and restraint, when lashing out in anger or hatred would be so much easier. Take Superman for example, who could take anything he wants, kill anyone who hurts him, without fear of consequences. Imagine the strength of character he must have to refrain from doing that, every day of his life, just because it would contradict what he believes to be right.

 

The opposite number of the superhero is the supervillain. He's everything the hero is not: arrogant, selfish, believing his power entitles him to do whatever he wants to "lesser" people. Although the very best supers stories are not so clear-cut, mixing in grey elements of moral quandaries, villains with admirable qualities and heroes with flaws... ultimately the battle between the hero and villain is a struggle between Good and Evil. I enjoy that clarity in a very confusing world, just as I enjoy the tangibility of Evil in the person of the supervillain. So much hatred, jealousy, corruption seems to pervade human nature, it's incredibly cathartic to be able to come to grips with it and bring it down, if only vicariously or as a fantasy. But not by wantonly killing or destroying, however much the hero may want to. That kind of self-indulgence, of lack of respect for fundamental human rights, is characteristic of villains. Heroes have to be better than that.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

First let me say that I don't mean any disrespect by this post.

 

I really want to like the superhero genre and I am reading the Champions 6th edition book now. I'm also reading comic books and have played marvel super heroes back in the day, with the same sort of willingness and wanting to love the genre but it sort of escapes me, for lack of a better phrase.

 

I come from a Fantasy background and started with DnD. I am nutso about Fantasy Hero and love how it works. Is it possible to be just too into fantasy to understand or "get" the super hero genre?

 

Is there a way to really appreciate this genre? I read comic books and I'm thinking, "Man, just give the dude a sword or an AK 47 and shred this cape wearing fool." It seems like a lot of problems could be solved in these worlds if people just used lethal force. (I do understand that that is not an option for many heroic minded super heroes.)

 

I find that the only real fun is creating a character and then pitting them against other characters, but duking it out is only fun for so long. If there is a deeper layer to this genre, than I am missing it.

 

Does anyone else feel like this? Maybe you were of the same mind and now have come to appreciate the genre. Please tell me what changed your mind set. I really want to like this genre but it just seems to one dimensional in that characters fight and that is all there is to the genre.

 

Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.

 

have you tried DARK CHAMPIONS that might be more your style

[Guest steamteck]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

I, "Man, just give the dude a sword or an AK 47 and shred this cape wearing fool." It seems like a lot of problems could be solved in these worlds if people just used lethal force. (I do understand that that is not an option for many heroic minded super heroes.)

 

 

Interesting , I always find it breaks my immersion when the heroes use guns in modern comics because what idiot would bring a gun or a sword to a superpowered fight. If guns were a big solution the superhero wouldn't exist. Guns are for the mooks who get beaten by the dozens.

 

I can tell you I have run three campaigns for decades (and now they're in the same shared multiiverse) Fantasy, Space opera and superhereos and I find they all have enormous role playing possibilities but you need to embrace each genre for what it is. If you don't like the conventions of the genre or it breaks your supension of belief, its not for you.

 

Like Sinanju, I really have no love for dungeon delving and my fantasy world is very unconventional and full or politics, secret wars of immortals vs Vampires behind the scenes, Steampunk, and pretty much no conventional dungeon delving.

 

Maybe as others suggested, you should try a more" people with powers" approach like the TV show heroes. I really prefer the classical superhereos myself but many find that approach more plausible.

[OddHat]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

Since supers are essentially a modern American phenomenon

 

I love your post, and I can hear its drumbeat and poetry. However, I do disagree with this part of it. Supers, even masked Super Heroes, are a world wide phenomena. Darna has been published in the Philippines steadily since 1949. Sure, you can point to her roots in Captain Marvel, but she is a true Filipina heroine. Ultraman has been flying since 1966, and he was not the first modern Japanese Superhero. Chinese Wuxia Supers have been exhibiting every sort of Superpower since at least the Tang dynasty, when fantasy started mixing with action adventure. I'm not down playing in any way the importance of the American Superhero story, which added its own elements to the mix. Just pointing out that the roots run deep and the branches spread wide, and that you can find stories of masked heroes fighting evil bandits and corrupt officials almost everywhere, in almost every period.

 

Even masked hereos with Superpowers, though they were rare in Western literature until the American Superhero.

[OddHat]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

Have to spread rep before giving it again, Liaden.

[csyphrett]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

Also the super hero genre has changed over the years. Some of that is good, and some of it is bad. I like Astro City and Hellboy when I can find the collections, but I can't stand most modern comics.

 

In a game, you have to pick what you want to implement.

CES

[Tech]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

First let me say that I don't mean any disrespect by this post.

 

I really want to like the superhero genre and I am reading the Champions 6th edition book now. I'm also reading comic books and have played marvel super heroes back in the day, with the same sort of willingness and wanting to love the genre but it sort of escapes me, for lack of a better phrase.

 

I come from a Fantasy background and started with DnD. I am nutso about Fantasy Hero and love how it works. Is it possible to be just too into fantasy to understand or "get" the super hero genre?

 

Is there a way to really appreciate this genre? I read comic books and I'm thinking, "Man, just give the dude a sword or an AK 47 and shred this cape wearing fool." It seems like a lot of problems could be solved in these worlds if people just used lethal force. (I do understand that that is not an option for many heroic minded super heroes.)

 

I find that the only real fun is creating a character and then pitting them against other characters, but duking it out is only fun for so long. If there is a deeper layer to this genre, than I am missing it.

 

Does anyone else feel like this? Maybe you were of the same mind and now have come to appreciate the genre. Please tell me what changed your mind set. I really want to like this genre but it just seems to one dimensional in that characters fight and that is all there is to the genre.

 

Any help with this will be greatly appreciated.

 

It depends on what you're thinking when you say this. If you mean, why don't villains do this to the heroes (gun/sword, etc), then realize that any villain who goes around slicing and dicing will run into the authorities for murder. Heroes, on the other hand, will not be nice when they run into that villain. As another poster said, many heroes can bounce off those guns/swords/etc and trounce those attackers into gibbering fools.

 

I find that campaigns that focus on the 'beat them up for experience' (even fantasy ones), don't last long. When a campaign becomes a 'why don't you just kill them?' episode, then there's a huge problem. Where is the roleplaying of the character? What is the character doing in his/her spare time? What does the hero like to do on a date? I even touch on 'what would a villain do in his/her spare time?' I've had a hero in his secret identity date a crazy supervillainess in her secret id, and they had a wonderful time... until the supervillainess went crazy on him.

 

Hero: So... does this mean another date is out of the question?

(This is a wonderful line that was actually said by the player during the episode.)

 

What a hero does when not out saving the street, neighborhood, city, friends, etc., is very important to continually keeping the campaign from going sour and turning it into 'just another beat-them-up fest'. That's how the campaign I've been in is one of the oldest, continuous campaigns around: keeping things fresh such as having the characters do things in their secret identities that matter (including getting rich, getting married or breaking up, retiring in their careers, changing careers and so on).

 

Back onto the topic. I appreciate what Lord Liaden had said and give thanks for it.

[Stone]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

My first question is what do you like about the superhero genre? You said you played Marvel, what type of character(s) did you identify with? I think once you have identified what about comics you like, it will help you get into the superhero genre. I started with DND myself, but I now prefer Rolemaster (I know, I'm in a very small minority). Champions for me was a chance to play in the world of comics. I learned to read by reading comics. The whole being a hero thing is something I enjoy when I play. With that comes the "great power, great responsibility" part, but again I enjoy that.

 

I agree with an earlier post, maybe you should try dark champions where characters like the Punisher are more the norm. You are going to have to find your "connection" to the superhero genre or you will simply not enjoy the game like others do. There are genres that I simply cannot get into; steam/cyberpunk and cthulhu are two that jump to mind right now. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with those genres, they simply hold little interest for me. It may be the same for you and the superhero genre.

[kahuna's bro]

Re: How to understand the SuperHero Genre

 

My first question is what do you like about the superhero genre? You said you played Marvel, what type of character(s) did you identify with? I think once you have identified what about comics you like, it will help you get into the superhero genre. I started with DND myself, but I now prefer Rolemaster (I know, I'm in a very small minority). Champions for me was a chance to play in the world of comics. I learned to read by reading comics. The whole being a hero thing is something I enjoy when I play. With that comes the "great power, great responsibility" part, but again I enjoy that.

 

I agree with an earlier post, maybe you should try dark champions where characters like the Punisher are more the norm. You are going to have to find your "connection" to the superhero genre or you will simply not enjoy the game like others do. There are genres that I simply cannot get into; steam/cyberpunk and cthulhu are two that jump to mind right now. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with those genres, they simply hold little interest for me. It may be the same for you and the superhero genre.

 

or dark champions the animated series for a composite of championsand dc