Things I May Have Forgotten

[Thia Halmades]

What up, y'all? Happy holidays, all that. This'll be easy for... someone who isn't me at the moment.

 

Paint the Target: The caster illuminates the target, which has the effects you think it does. Upshot: it's easier to perceive, and easier to hit. It's a compound power (I think) but I can't put it together mentally at the moment.

 

I think this is the same discussion that we had with Faerie Fire, now that I think on it. Thoughts on how to paint a target in 6th?

[Greywind]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Paint brush?

 

Spray can?

 

Flashlight?

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Scary. I've not been on the boards for a couple of days (playing with a new toy) but was thinking of this very thing several days ago.

 

Images to paint the target. Combat Skill Levels or bonus OCV for the easier to hit part; if it's easier for everyone to hit, add Usable By Nearby. Maybe something like "only in reduced light levels or natural darkness" or something relating it to that. Link one to the other or both together. Add seasoning to taste.

[CptPatriot]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

What up, y'all? Happy holidays, all that. This'll be easy for... someone who isn't me at the moment.

 

Paint the Target: The caster illuminates the target, which has the effects you think it does. Upshot: it's easier to perceive, and easier to hit. It's a compound power (I think) but I can't put it together mentally at the moment.

 

I think this is the same discussion that we had with Faerie Fire, now that I think on it. Thoughts on how to paint a target in 6th?

 

Scary. I've not been on the boards for a couple of days (playing with a new toy) but was thinking of this very thing several days ago.

 

Images to paint the target. Combat Skill Levels or bonus OCV for the easier to hit part; if it's easier for everyone to hit, add Usable By Nearby. Maybe something like "only in reduced light levels or natural darkness" or something relating it to that. Link one to the other or both together. Add seasoning to taste.

 

Painting a target is all about making the target visible at a range so they can be fired upon. In the end, Images for the Sense Group you are using as your targeting sense is the way to do it.

 

In the case of a laser designator, it gives the fighter craft's passive laser detection equipment very specific frequency of encoded light pulses that reflects off the target, so the very accurate munitions can blow it out of the sky.

 

In the case of the Faerie Fire spell from the d20 SRD, it projects an outline around targets caught in the Area of Effect that is visible by all, even if the targets are concealed or invisible.

 

The benefit of it depends on the effect you are trying to simulate, as always.

 

Using the laser designator example, if the ground soldier wields it, it offers no other bonus as the guided munition should be the object that buys the Accuracy advantage for the munition(which should also have a Lock-on Limitation, since if needs to make a PER Roll of the lased target). If the plane has the designator, the gunner/pilot can use the Cover maneuver to cover the target, being able to perceive the target already with sensors on the craft, and the pilot just needs to fire the bomb when ready.

 

Using the Faerie Fire example, the Images power foils Invisibility like throwing paint on or walking in fog has foiled invisible foes in the movies.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

From: Increasing Target Visibility

 

Here's another alternative from the 3.5 conversion thread you might consider:

 

21 Glitterdust [Conjuration] alternate: (Total: 105 Active Cost, 21 Real Cost) Suppress Invisibility 7d6 (standard effect: 21 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (61 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 13) plus Sight Group Flash 3d6, Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2) (22 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) plus Change Environment 2" radius, -5 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll (22 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Minute (-1), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 4) [Notes: The -5 is verses anyone attempting to "Hide" using Concealment or Images since they are now glowing (only if the Suppress worked).] - END=[1 cc]

 

Here's a cheaper version:

 

16 Glitterdust [Conjuration] alternate #2: (Total: 83 Active Cost, 16 Real Cost) Suppress Invisibility 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (52 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 11) plus Change Environment 2" radius, -3 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll (16 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Spell (-1/2), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 3) plus Sight Group Flash 2d6, Explosion (+1/2) (15 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; Ground micah; -1), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) (Real Cost: 2) [Notes: The -3 is verses anyone attempting to "Hide" using Concealment or Images since they are now glowing (only if the Suppress worked).] - END=[1 cc]

 

and here's an easier to read format via the List feature of HD:

 

Glitterdust [Conjuration], all slots OAF Expendable (Easy to obtain new Focus; -1), Requires A Conjuration Roll (-1/2), Spell (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) - END=

11 1) Look! He's Glowing!: Suppress Invisibility 6d6 (standard effect: 18 points), Area Of Effect (2" radius; +3/4) (52 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4) - END=[1 cc]

3 2) Look! He's Glowing!: Change Environment 2" radius, -3 to Characteristic Roll or Skill Roll (16 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), Linked (Suppress; -1/2) [Notes: The -3 is verses anyone attempting to "Hide" using Concealment or Images since they are now glowing (only if the Suppress worked).] - END=[1 cc]

4 3) Poof!: Sight Group Flash 2d6, Area Of Effect (2" Radius; +1 1/4) (22 Active Points); 1 Charge (-2), Linked (Suppress; -1/2) - END=[1]

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

There is probably an better way than this, but it suddenly hit me so here is is:

 

Laser Spotting: 25pts Growth, 0 END, Useable As Attack(+1), Ranged, Only for purposes of applying PER and DCV penalties (-2). Net effect: -2 DCV, +2 for PER against target. Real cost: 25.

 

I'm not sure I have the UAA value right under 6e, but something like that. If you wanted a Farie Fire or phosphorus attack that was fire and forget, then you could make it continuing charges instead.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

While the above builds could certainly work, my "target painters" of any variety have always been built something like:

 

Combat Skill Levels, Usable By Others, Perceivable, Requires an Attack Roll, Conditional Power: Only vs. affected target(s) (-1). (Plus other limitations to fit magic / tech / whatever SFX it is.)

 

KISS.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Surely sixth edition makes this easier.

 

DCV suppress, only for those that can percieve the paint (maybe a 1/4 limitation?)....

 

 

Doc

[pinecone]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

What up, y'all? Happy holidays, all that. This'll be easy for... someone who isn't me at the moment.

 

Paint the Target: The caster illuminates the target, which has the effects you think it does. Upshot: it's easier to perceive, and easier to hit. It's a compound power (I think) but I can't put it together mentally at the moment.

 

I think this is the same discussion that we had with Faerie Fire, now that I think on it. Thoughts on how to paint a target in 6th?

 

Why not a sticky (UAA) CE that lowers the tagets DCV? and Stealth?....

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

What up, y'all? Happy holidays, all that. This'll be easy for... someone who isn't me at the moment.

 

Paint the Target: The caster illuminates the target, which has the effects you think it does. Upshot: it's easier to perceive, and easier to hit. It's a compound power (I think) but I can't put it together mentally at the moment.

 

I think this is the same discussion that we had with Faerie Fire, now that I think on it. Thoughts on how to paint a target in 6th?

 

Any effect of such an ability should only be able to counter OCV penalties due to bad lighting and stealth.

Because of that, I am hesitant to advocate any build that actually reduces the target's DCV as such.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Both Kraven Kor and Doc Democracy have a better way to model the DCV penalty than my Growth build, but you might want to add Images to reflect the bonus to PER rolls against the target if that is an important aspect of the power. Or maybe the GM can just say that any power costing END is visible, so the bonus to PER is just a given.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Any effect of such an ability should only be able to counter OCV penalties due to bad lighting and stealth.

Because of that, I am hesitant to advocate any build that actually reduces the target's DCV as such.

 

I was thinking of painting the target as it works for semi-guided missiles where it would indeed lower the target's DCV. As Thia's description does not require such guided missile effect then I would not do it via suppressed DCV.

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

I was thinking of painting the target as it works for semi-guided missiles where it would indeed lower the target's DCV. As Thia's description does not require such guided missile effect then I would not do it via suppressed DCV.

 

Doc

 

From: Spotter and Laser Designator

 

from the perspective of the spotter on the ground I would model it something like this:

 

39 Laser Designator: Sight Group and Detect Images 1" radius, +/-10 to PER Rolls, 1 Continuing Fuel Charge lasting 1 Hour (+0), Indirect (Same origin, always fired away from attacker; +1/4), MegaScale (1" = 1 km; Applies only to Range Modifier for noticing the laser (the pilot firing the weapon); +1/4), Increased Maximum Range (2,675"; +1/4), Invisible Power Effects, Source Only (Fully Invisible; +1/2), No Range Modifier (+1/2) (118 Active Points); OAF (-1), Only To Create Light (-1) - END=[1 cc]

 

Then just model the guided munitions with a Limited Naked Advantage that includes appropriate Advantages like No Range Modifier and AOE 1 Hex Accurate. Then add appropriate Limitations like Only If Target Illuminated By Laser Designator. The munitions could probably still be used in an un-guided old school gravity mode if a Spotter is unavailable.

 

In a sense, the target's DCV is getting lowered to that of a Hex (3) but this is a function of the 'smart munition' being used, not the Laser Designator itself.

[Greywind]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

And if the laser designator cannot hold the target, then the munition will hit what the designator is lighting up at the time.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

I was correct, this is closer to the Glitterdust/Faerie Fire concept, where an individual target is "lit" -- I think that the images here are really a special effect (conveying no real benefit beyond the premise of the OCV). But let's walk through this one more time:

 

A Neenja of the Clan Bunneh has been spotted. As we all know, those who fail Teh Bunneh may consider their lives instantly forfeit. In an attempt to escape to die honorably, the Neenja of Clan Bunneh is tagged with [setting specific magic & spell] Target Identifier. The target is now glowing.

 

So that's Images, yes? The first half of this is the light which now illuminates the target granting a +PER effect. Now this gets a little screwy if they pop Invis or a similar ability, but I think that's where HMs original Suppress Invisibility comes in, and that makes a certain amount of sense for a higher-end edition of this same power. For this, we'll call it the more direct "laser pointer," and not the high-end version.

 

The second half is CV, UBO with the limitation "only on painted target," although in that sense, I almost prefer the DCV suppression concept, again, "Only against targeting individuals, -1/2." In that, there's no additional penalty for AOEs or anything, and it applies automatically (mathwise) to everyone attempting to fight them.

 

I have to go with that in this case. Images, Illuminate Target +10 PER, plus Suppress DCV 4, Only versus Sighted Combatants (-1/4), Linked.

 

That won't be cheap, but I believe it will work. Now if I only had HDv6th here at work.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

.... plus Suppress DCV 4, Only versus Sighted Combatants (-1/4), Linked.

 

 

I'm still unclear on what this part is supposed to represent.

Blinding the target?

Making them stand out from innocent bystanders??

Something completely different???

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Oh, I see.

 

So the concept is this:

 

YOU are Neenja from Clan Bunneh.

 

I have a band of stalwart adventurers. You are hit with [GlitterFire IV]. What really happens?

 

1) You are lit up, much like the proverbial Christmas Tree, making you easier to perceive

2a) In the original build (5th) everyone had CSLs for OCV granted to them to represent that lit target is easier to hit. Made sense at the time.

2b) In 6th, it actually makes more sense to Suppress the Target's DCV against direct attacks from Sighted targets (-1/4).

 

Hence, the power now works a lot more cleanly -- once you perceive the thing, it becomes easier to hit. "Swing at the shiny light!"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Oh, I see.

 

So the concept is this:

 

YOU are Neenja from Clan Bunneh.

 

I have a band of stalwart adventurers. You are hit with [GlitterFire IV]. What really happens?

 

1) You are lit up, much like the proverbial Christmas Tree, making you easier to perceive

2a) In the original build (5th) everyone had CSLs for OCV granted to them to represent that lit target is easier to hit. Made sense at the time.

2b) In 6th, it actually makes more sense to Suppress the Target's DCV against direct attacks from Sighted targets (-1/4).

 

Hence, the power now works a lot more cleanly -- once you perceive the thing, it becomes easier to hit. "Swing at the shiny light!"

 

But what if the fight is already taking place in broad daylight. Why does highlighting a target make them easier to hit?

 

I can see the benefit if everyone were attempting to coordinate attacks "On 3 Zap the Glowing Guy!"

(Everyone gets a bonus to their Coordination roll, if successful then the target takes a penalty to his DCV due to the coordination IF he doesn't have the appropriate level of Defense Maneuver).

But just highlighting a target by itself doesn't make the target easier to hit.

 

Say Bob has a laser pointer and Doug has a gun.

Bob points his laser pointer at a badguy and keeps it on him from a distance while Doug is fighting the badguy.

Does the laser dot really help Doug in any way? (It might scare the badguy into thinking there is a hidden sniper with a laser scoped weapon pointed at him, but that's it).

 

Now IF Bob fitted his laser pointer on Doug's gun and calibrated it to the gun's optimum range, THEN Doug would get some benefit by seeing a pretty good approximation of where his bullets would hit when he pulled the trigger.

[Checkmate]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Even in broad daylight, giving the target a clearly defined outline is a huge help. I would be tempted to make the images UAA. This would ensure that it moved with the target and would actually negate invisibility because the image wouldn't change it would just be stuck to an invisible target.

 

For the to hit advantage, I would use Negative Skill Levels Only works with targeting sight (probably a -0 disad, -1/4 for a generous GM)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Let me rephrase one more time...

 

IF no part of the target's DCV is based on stealth or invisibility,

WHY does making them easier to perceive also directly make them easier to hit?

 

In other words...

 

If OCV is directly affected by perception then why doesn't a high PER give a character bonuses to hit?

(this is intended to be a rhetorical question btw)

[ghost-angel]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Let me rephrase one more time...

 

IF no part of the target's DCV is based on stealth or invisibility,

WHY does making them easier to perceive also directly make them easier to hit?

 

In other words...

 

If OCV is directly affected by perception then why doesn't a high PER give a character bonuses to hit?

(this is intended to be a rhetorical question btw)

 

It's emulating the old DnD Spell Faerie Fire which both made the target easier to see and easier to hit, by virtue of Magic alone - i.e. they're aren't related except in the sense that Faerie Fire makes you easier to see and hit both. OCV isn't directly related to Perception - except when you're Faerie Fire'd. Two Part Spell.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

It's emulating the old DnD Spell Faerie Fire which both made the target easier to see and easier to hit' date=' by virtue of Magic alone - i.e. they're aren't related except in the sense that Faerie Fire makes you easier to see and hit both. OCV isn't directly related to Perception - except when you're Faerie Fire'd. Two Part Spell.[/quote']

 

Is the D&D version of Faerie Fire that different from the online D20 version below?

If not, my earlier argument still holds.

 

Faerie Fire

 

Evocation [Light]

Level: Drd 1

Components: V, S, DF

Casting Time: 1 standard action

Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)

Area: Creatures and objects within a 5-ft.-radius burst

Duration: 1 min./level (D)

Saving Throw: None

Spell Resistance: Yes

 

A pale glow surrounds and outlines the subjects. Outlined subjects shed light as candles. Outlined creatures do not benefit from the concealment normally provided by darkness (though a 2nd-level or higher magical darkness effect functions normally), blur, displacement, invisibility, or similar effects. The light is too dim to have any special effect on undead or dark-dwelling creatures vulnerable to light. The faerie fire can be blue, green, or violet, according to your choice at the time of casting. The faerie fire does not cause any harm to the objects or creatures thus outlined.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Is the D&D version of Faerie Fire that different from the online D20 version below?

If not, my earlier argument still holds.

 

Faerie Fire

 

The AD&D2E version gave people a bonus to hit.

 

I can't say if this is trying to emulate that effect specifically or not.

 

Personally, I would assume lighting a target up just removes penalties to hit (if any) due to darkness (and some forms of concealment), not provides a bonus to OCV/Loss of Target DCV. But that's not what the OP asked for.

[Checkmate]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Let me rephrase one more time...

 

IF no part of the target's DCV is based on stealth or invisibility,

WHY does making them easier to perceive also directly make them easier to hit?

 

In other words...

 

If OCV is directly affected by perception then why doesn't a high PER give a character bonuses to hit?

(this is intended to be a rhetorical question btw)

To answer in reverse order: It's a game, there are A LOT of things in the real world that would affect your chances to hit that aren't taken into account with OCV/DCV, to do so would be impossible.

 

Second, making something easier to see, even in broad daylight, makes it easier to hit. Don't believe me? Try this, go to a shooting range put two targets at about the 25 yard mark (about 22 meters or 11"). Make one target dark gray background with a slightly lighter gray silhouette, and the other black background with a white silhouette and see which one is easier to shoot at.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

...

Second, making something easier to see, even in broad daylight, makes it easier to hit. Don't believe me? Try this, go to a shooting range put two targets at about the 25 yard mark (about 22 meters or 11"). Make one target dark gray background with a slightly lighter gray silhouette, and the other black background with a white silhouette and see which one is easier to shoot at.

 

You are still making a perception argument. If we assume the shooter already has an extremely high perception (say a 20- base roll) then increasing that roll later should not affect the shooter's OCV (especially at 22 meters).

 

Based on the OP everyone is assuming this build is for a fantasy setting but what if we put it in a standard supers one instead (which arguably includes all genres anyway).

 

Why would an application of Faerie Fire make hitting The Human Torch (or a Fire Elemental for that matter) easier?

And saying that's the way it worked in 2nd/1st edition AD&D is only answering a question not asked (how) but not the why.

 

re: ghost-angel & the 2nd edition AD&D version of Faerie Fire

I could not locate a 2nd ed. write up of the spell but I did find my 1st ed. Players Handbook. The spell description is almost exactly the same as the one I quoted earlier. The main difference is an inclusion of "+2 to hit". It is my theory that the game designers removed this because they believed as I do that the 'glow' should only be removing OCV penalties due to perception (normal darkness, invisibility, blur, etc...), not that it directly increases the "to hit" chances of attacks vs. those affected by Faerie Fire. The original interpretation makes the spell work like a combination of remove invisibility & bless all-in-one which seems a little overpowered.