Things I May Have Forgotten

[Checkmate]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

You are still making a perception argument. If we assume the shooter already has an extremely high perception (say a 20- base roll) then increasing that roll later should not affect the shooter's OCV (especially at 22 meters).

 

Based on the OP everyone is assuming this build is for a fantasy setting but what if we put it in a standard supers one instead (which arguably includes all genres anyway).

 

Why would an application of Faerie Fire make hitting The Human Torch (or a Fire Elemental for that matter) easier?

Ah good point, I wasn't thinking in quite those terms. I can still see an argument for it (although an admittedly weaker one).

 

To make people harder to see you want to break up the human shaped silhouette so it doesn't look human shaped. If you make it impossible to break up the silhouette, you are easier to see. In combat, where people are moving quickly and dodging around, it would be easier to see a lit object than an unlit one. As another example, have you ever driven through the desert on a sunny day? Nothing around for miles to obscure your view, and yet a car with it's headlights on is much easier to see than one without them on. If you illuminate something, it's typically easier to see, and therefore target, than something that isn't illuminated.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

And saying that's the way it worked in 2nd/1st edition AD&D is only answering a question not asked (how) but not the why.

 

Ah, well - I don't answer Why anymore. I find it just leads to annoying circular arguments based on "reality" and quite boring. So, I'll step aside. Sorry to intrude.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Ah' date=' well - I don't answer Why anymore. I find it just leads to annoying circular arguments based on "reality" and quite boring. So, I'll step aside. Sorry to intrude.[/quote']

 

I'm sorry if I am boring you. I usually agree with you (something like 95% of the time).

I just get annoyed when conversions of abilities from other game systems into Hero rules somehow get a pass on the 'reason from effects' idea and instead turn into a case of how to build another system's mechanics using Hero mechanics.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Not you- the topic. The problem with translating another games abilities is it's half "reason from effect" and half "match the mechanics"

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

The "easier to perceive" = "easier to hit" I think applies to laser-guided missiles, because the missile is designed to lock onto the laser signature. It does not make the target easier to hit in melee or with other ranged weapons not designed to home in on the laser spot. This is of course different from a targeting laser on a gun, which just indicates to the shooter that the gun is pointing in the right direction and offers no bonus to anyone else.

 

For a farie fire spell, its magic so you can have it do whatever the heck you want with minimal rationale. If you want the spell to give a bonus to PER and to attacker OCV and attract insect swarms and make the target float off the ground, etc, then build it that way, but they are all independent effects related only superficially by sfx.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Well, you could always make it offer a bonus to Perception rolls, and then the player could roll Perception and whatever they pass it by determines pluses to OCV. It's full night= a bigger bonus to Perception. Noon= much smaller bonus.

 

I can still see the use of it at range if it provides you with a perfect silhouette, even while the target is moving.

[Checkmate]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

The "easier to perceive" = "easier to hit" I think applies to laser-guided missiles, because the missile is designed to lock onto the laser signature. It does not make the target easier to hit in melee or with other ranged weapons not designed to home in on the laser spot. This is of course different from a targeting laser on a gun, which just indicates to the shooter that the gun is pointing in the right direction and offers no bonus to anyone else.

 

For a farie fire spell, its magic so you can have it do whatever the heck you want with minimal rationale. If you want the spell to give a bonus to PER and to attacker OCV and attract insect swarms and make the target float off the ground, etc, then build it that way, but they are all independent effects related only superficially by sfx.

I disagree. I've already pointed out the ranged example with the contrasting targets, but I've also thought of a hand to hand example.

 

Think about any contact sport, you move to make the other person miss. Highlighting the person would make him much easier to hit. Ask a baseball player if a ball would be easier to hit if it was glowing. In my experience anything lit up is easier to see and hit

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

I disagree. I've already pointed out the ranged example with the contrasting targets, but I've also thought of a hand to hand example.

 

Think about any contact sport, you move to make the other person miss. Highlighting the person would make him much easier to hit. Ask a baseball player if a ball would be easier to hit if it was glowing. In my experience anything lit up is easier to see and hit

 

 

And I've already proved this wrong.

Lit up just means easier to percieve, PERIOD.

The ONLY time that being easier to percieve will help make targets easier to hit is when the fight is taking place in an environment where it is normally hard to see (like underground, at night, invisible targets, etc...). It is the same difference that exists between CSL's and PSL's. PSL's can never increase OCV, they just eliminate penalties.

 

It wouldn't be difficult at all to provide an enormous list of comic book characters with glowing power effects. None are portrayed as being at a combat disadvantage as a result. Heck, I'm pretty sure there are several other friendly spells in D&D that also create a glowing effect on those targets getting the benificial effects.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

re: lighting up the silouette of a target

 

I could see where doing so might be applied to negate the DCV bonus of Batman's Cape based on sfx:

 

2 Cape: +1 with DCV (5 Active Points); Restrainable (-1/2), OIF (-1/2)

[Checkmate]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

And I've already proved this wrong.

Lit up just means easier to percieve, PERIOD.

The ONLY time that being easier to percieve will help make targets easier to hit is when the fight is taking place in an environment where it is normally hard to see (like underground, at night, invisible targets, etc...). It is the same difference that exists between CSL's and PSL's. PSL's can never increase OCV, they just eliminate penalties.

 

It wouldn't be difficult at all to provide an enormous list of comic book characters with glowing power effects. None are portrayed as being at a combat disadvantage as a result. Heck, I'm pretty sure there are several other friendly spells in D&D that also create a glowing effect on those targets getting the benificial effects.

You haven't really proved anything because I don't think you are correct. Yes it does make it easier to perceive where I don't agree with you is that it doesn't apply in daylight. When I played basketball it would have been significantly harder to fake someone out if my body was outlined with light. Part of the reason that's possible is because you make your opponent look at your shoulders ignoring the rest of your body, they see your shoulders go one way and think you're headed that way. If my entire body were outlined it would call attention to the direction the rest of my body is going.

 

Sure there are people with glowing sfx but the difference is it doesn't make a perfect outline of your body.

 

Again if you were in a desert at say 11:00am what penalty would you give someone trying to see an 18 wheeler at 50 meters? I would venture to say there wouldn't be a penalty, it yet if it turns it's lights on, it's even easier to see.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

...yet if it turns it's lights on' date=' it's even easier to see.[/quote']

 

 

Your whole argument hinges on easier to see = easier to hit which is just not true in HERO rules.

 

If your interpretation was correct why do we have the Combat Archery Talent/Superskill in Fantasy Hero?

(I don't have book handy at the moment but I believe it uses either PSL's or CSL's w/Limitation only to avoid hitting friends if attack misses target)

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

If easier to see = easier to hit, then it stands to reason that a build of Superman's Heat Vision wouldn't need any additional Advantages or CSL's to be accurate as long has he has all of his 'super-senses' (like IR vision, and multiple levels with PER).

 

But HERO doesn't work that way. In HERO you have to pay for what you get. So in the case of Superman's Heat Vision it needs to either include CSL's or Advantages like No Range Modifier and AOE 1 Hex Accurate to reflect the sfx that if Superman can see something, he can usually hit it with his Heat Vision (Flash might be fast enough to avoid getting hit by it via Dive For Cover).

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

But Hyper-Man, they are paying for what they get with the fairy-fire build. They pay for the ability to drop the targets DCV...

[Checkmate]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Your whole argument hinges on easier to see = easier to hit which is just not true in HERO rules.

 

If your interpretation was correct why do we have the Combat Archery Talent/Superskill in Fantasy Hero?

(I don't have book handy at the moment but I believe it uses either PSL's or CSL's w/Limitation only to avoid hitting friends if attack misses target)

Like BW said, I'm not saying they should get it for free, but I would absolutely approve the power if it included the bonuses to hit. I would go so far as to suggest it be included if they didn't have it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

But Hyper-Man' date=' they are paying for what they get with the fairy-fire build. They pay for the ability to drop the targets DCV...[/quote']

 

FYI, there are two different arguments taking place here.

 

1. that Faerie Fire actually gives vanilla bonuses to hit vs. just removing the OCV penalties due to darkness, invisibility or camouflage (I contend it is the latter and have already given copious reasons why upthread).

 

2. that making a target 'more visible' automatically makes them easier to hit (decreases their DCV or increases everyone else's OCV) vs. just making them easier to see.

 

re: 2

HERO has very detailed rules for combat dealing with limited perception of targets. These rules have changed very little over the years. One thing that seems clear (to me at least) is that there is a minimum perception required before a character can use their full OCV to target. Once that minimum is met however, further increases to perception do not translate into more increases to OCV.

 

It's just like the STR minimum on Guns, a character who doesn't have the STR Min for a 44 Magnum can still fire it, they are just at a minus to their OCV.

If a wizard later casts a spell of "Strength" on them and their STR now meets the minimum for the 44 Magnum, they no longer have the penalty to their OCV.

If the wizard casts the Strength spell on someone who already has enough strength to effectively use their gun, the extra STR doesn't make the gun more accurate or do more damage.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

I don't think anyone has argued that making someone easier to see makes them easier to hit in HERO system, only that it does in real life. You don't agree with that, and I'm not sure I do either, but you are the one that brought up giving free bonuses in game. Checkmate argues that it would give a bonus in real life, thus it's appropriate to give a bonus, that was paid for by the spell, in game.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

I don't think anyone has argued that making someone easier to see makes them easier to hit in HERO system' date=' only that it does in real life. You don't agree with that, and I'm not sure I do either, but you are the one that brought up giving free bonuses in game. Checkmate argues that it would give a bonus in real life, thus it's appropriate to give a bonus, [i']that was paid for by the spell[/i], in game.

 

I disagree on the bonuses in real life too. People with 20/10 vision are not automatically better HTH fighters or snipers. Hand-eye coordination is a big part of the equation that seems to be getting ignored.

 

I am not disputing that someone can build an ability in Hero that makes someone glow and lowers their DCV.

I AM disputing any intreptation of the D&D Faerie Fire spell stating it gives a flat bonus to hit in all circumstances.

[Checkmate]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Just to clarify what I'm saying (Bigbywolfe has it correct), nothing in HERO gives you the bonus automatically. What I'm saying is that, by definition, the Faerie Fire spell SHOULD give a bonus to hit in almost all situations (but it has to be paid for)

 

I disagree on the bonuses in real life too. People with 20/10 vision are not automatically better HTH fighters or snipers. Hand-eye coordination is a big part of the equation that seems to be getting ignored.

Actually, everything else being equal, they would be better snipers, but that's neither here nor there. I'm not ignoring hand-eye coordination at all. What you are ignoring is that movement is a huge part of combat. All that is taken into account with OCV and DCV. Having your body outlined with light will reduce the positive effects of the way you bob and weave in combat. You will be at a disadvantage to someone that isn't outlined in light.

 

Again, going back to basketball because that's what I'm very familiar with, if I can get you to look at the ball, I can trick you into thinking I'm going to go left, when I'm really going right. I can distract you with something and is basically irrelevant, because the ball can't go anywhere without me. If my body were highlighted, that would be less likely to happen.

 

Outlining someone in light does much more than just make them easier to see. I've given you tons of examples, but you're still not going to believe me, I just don't think you've had the same experiences that I have to see what a huge difference it would make.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Just to clarify what I'm saying (Bigbywolfe has it correct), nothing in HERO gives you the bonus automatically. What I'm saying is that, by definition, the Faerie Fire spell SHOULD give a bonus to hit in almost all situations (but it has to be paid for)

 

 

Actually, everything else being equal, they would be better snipers, but that's neither here nor there. I'm not ignoring hand-eye coordination at all. What you are ignoring is that movement is a huge part of combat. All that is taken into account with OCV and DCV. Having your body outlined with light will reduce the positive effects of the way you bob and weave in combat. You will be at a disadvantage to someone that isn't outlined in light.

 

Again, going back to basketball because that's what I'm very familiar with, if I can get you to look at the ball, I can trick you into thinking I'm going to go left, when I'm really going right. I can distract you with something and is basically irrelevant, because the ball can't go anywhere without me. If my body were highlighted, that would be less likely to happen.

 

Outlining someone in light does much more than just make them easier to see. I've given you tons of examples, but you're still not going to believe me, I just don't think you've had the same experiences that I have to see what a huge difference it would make.

 

Let me start over one more time.

 

A glowing target is only going to stand out if it is among other non-glowing targets. The glow is going to make it easier to track that specific target in the crowd (a type of camouflage commonly used by schooling fish). So the glow is countering a camouflage effect. A fake out move in basket ball is a type of stealth/concealment/slight-of-hand move, it is still focused against an opponents perception. If the opponent already has outstanding perception, the glow is NOT going increase the opponents ability to react any further. In a one-on-one fight with otherwise perfect lighting conditions, a glow emanating from a target is not going to make one flippin' difference on how hard it is to hit that target.

 

Back to HERO mechanics...

Building the effect as a straight bonus to OCV (or subtraction to DCV) is flawed for another reason.

It assumes that everyone is using the same senses to perceive the target.

What if one of the combatants is Daredevil? Why the heck should he get any benefit to his OCV if a target is 'glowing'? He's freaking BLIND!!!!

So the OCV bonus/DCV drain now needs to be built with a limitation: only to helps targets using normal sight. That sounds a lot like bonus to PER within a specific sense group.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Back to HERO mechanics...

Building the effect as a straight bonus to OCV (or subtraction to DCV) is flawed for another reason.

It assumes that everyone is using the same senses to perceive the target.

What if one of the combatants is Daredevil? Why the heck should he get any benefit to his OCV if a target is 'glowing'? He's freaking BLIND!!!!

So the OCV bonus/DCV drain now needs to be built with a limitation: only to helps targets using normal sight. That sounds a lot like bonus to PER within a specific sense group.

I'm pretty sure "only sighted opponents" or "only for those targeting with sight" or somesuch was specifically listed as a Limitation in several of the sample builds...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

If you are going to make an argument based on OCV which itself is based on Faerie Fire then first please respond to my argument on why Faerie Fire is not really providing a bonus to hit (rather it is removing penalties due to perception).

 

re: lighting up a target NOT making it easier to hit.

 

Have any of you ever played the game Simon?

 

 

Does anyone actually believe that making the buttons glow BRIGHTER would make the game any freakin' easier??

Because that's what Checkmate is essentially saying.

[Checkmate]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Let me start over one more time.

 

A glowing target is only going to stand out if it is among other non-glowing targets. The glow is going to make it easier to track that specific target in the crowd (a type of camouflage commonly used by schooling fish). So the glow is countering a camouflage effect. A fake out move in basket ball is a type of stealth/concealment/slight-of-hand move, it is still focused against an opponents perception. If the opponent already has outstanding perception, the glow is NOT going increase the opponents ability to react any further. In a one-on-one fight with otherwise perfect lighting conditions, a glow emanating from a target is not going to make one flippin' difference on how hard it is to hit that target.

And here's why we are at an impasse. I think you're wrong, it does matter. A basketball fake out, isn't a "stealth move". It's one on one in broad daylight. I do agree it is a slight-of-hand, and what is a slight-of-hand? Tricking you into looking where you shouldn't look. How many stage magicians would be effective if the thing they didn't want you to look at was glowing?

Back to HERO mechanics...

Building the effect as a straight bonus to OCV (or subtraction to DCV) is flawed for another reason.

It assumes that everyone is using the same senses to perceive the target.

What if one of the combatants is Daredevil? Why the heck should he get any benefit to his OCV if a target is 'glowing'? He's freaking BLIND!!!!

So the OCV bonus/DCV drain now needs to be built with a limitation: only to helps targets using normal sight. That sounds a lot like bonus to PER within a specific sense group.

I'm pretty sure "only sighted opponents" or "only for those targeting with sight" or somesuch was specifically listed as a Limitation in several of the sample builds...

 

Yup, added the highlights:

For the to hit advantage, I would use Negative Skill Levels Only works with targeting sight (probably a -0 disad, -1/4 for a generous GM)

[Greywind]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

You aren't trying to hit them when they are lit.

[Checkmate]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Does anyone actually believe that making the buttons glow BRIGHTER would make the game any freakin' easier??

Because that's what Checkmate is essentially saying.

Well I finally see why we're having so much problem with this. It's obvious that you have no idea what a fight is all about. You think memorizing a sequence of colors will allow you to win any fight... Or are they completely different things? Hmmm

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Things I May Have Forgotten

 

Let's watch the snark level. It may have not been a good example, but that doesn't negate all of his points, or justify a blanket statement like "you have no idea what a fight is all about." I'm sure all your basket ball experience gives you great insight into how a glowing target would affect a gunfight. See, it goes both ways...

 

EDIT: Having said that, I do think it is a poor example Hyper-Man. That game does require some ammount of speed and coordination, but I'd argue the main focus is the memorization. Really not a good example to compare to targeting...