Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

If you want a bloodier game, I think Damage Negation is the way to go. If you have 35 PD, you won't be taking BOD very often/at all. Make that 9 levels of damage negation and 3 or 4 PD, and a 12d6 Blast gets 7 STUN o so through, just like before, but it stands a shot at inflicting some BOD as well.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

I know I mentioned a 12dc cap in the opening post but one of the ideas behind this thread was to get folks thinking about games without caps.

 

And a typical brick with 50 STR and a 10d6 Punch is still usually going be able to exceed a 12dc Cap without resorting to Pushing or Haymaker.

(Move Through)

[phoenix240]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

The problem is that the system isn't really made for "world of Cardboard" game play. ie Any character that can take a 10d6 attack and not be instantly be KOed or Stunned by it' date=' will take 0 body from the attack. If what one wants is a game where any attack does some body then perhaps the way to go would be a body blow through. ie for ever 5 (or 10) stun that gets through defenses the target takes 1 body (this is only for situations where the target would normally take 0 body). Then as combat goes along all of the characters in the combat start getting beat up ie taking body.[/quote']

 

Very nicely summed up. I've been thinking about this subject recently. I've been catching up on Invincible. The characters, despite being very tough in story tend to get beaten bloody regularly, even killed, seems like it might be a little difficult to model that in Hero System (Damage Negation?).

[Tasha]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

I know I mentioned a 12dc cap in the opening post but one of the ideas behind this thread was to get folks thinking about games without caps.

 

And a typical brick with 50 STR and a 10d6 Punch is still usually going be able to exceed a 12dc Cap without resorting to Pushing or Haymaker.

(Move Through)

 

When dealing with Damage caps one shouldn't worry about maneuvers that do extra damage and also have penalties to OCV and or DCV. I figure that if a brick wants to Move through with an OCV of 5 and a DCV of less than that it's ok because then every villain will open up on the easy target.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

Does anyone know who started or what the thread title was of the original thread referenced in these 2 old threads started by old board member Supreme?

 

Mixed Power-Level Campaign Update

 

Status of My Mixed Power-Level Campaign

 

I have spent an hour trying to find it with no luck. Looking back, I'm pretty sure it was on my mind when I started this thread. Basically he's dealing with some of the same issues being discussed in this thread but the approach is to ditch point balance completely.

[RexMundi]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

I don't tread with point balance once the game is going but then I build along the ideas and frameworks of a comic book so handling disparaging levels of impact is relatively easy for me. Granted though it's case by case. Everyone and every situation is different.

 

~Rex

[Christopher]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

When dealing with Damage caps one shouldn't worry about maneuvers that do extra damage and also have penalties to OCV and or DCV. I figure that if a brick wants to Move through with an OCV of 5 and a DCV of less than that it's ok because then every villain will open up on the easy target.

I totally agree. Each of the Standart Maneuver allows you to do more DC, but at a price (lower DCV and/or OCV, you take damage yourself). In fact the Standart Maneuvers are so "bad", that when you rebuild them as Martial Maneuvers each will cost 0 (but you are sometimes not even allowed to put so high penalties on it).

 

Now, when comparing how Martial Arts interacts with damage caps, perhaps this idea works:

When someone has martial Arts, just asume he had +2 OCV or +2 DCV (you can easily build a +2/+2 Martial Block maneuver, Mratial Dodge gives you up to +5 instead of +3 and a Marital Strike with +2OCV, +2 DCV, +0 DC is only 4 points).

Ausming no extra Damage classes are bought for Marital Arts someone with OCV 7, DCV 7 and 9 DC (without adding maneuvers) could be regarded as someone with OCV 9, DCV 9, 9 DC when comparing him to caps. Then something like the Offensive Strike is not that far from using a better Haymaker.

When making a Martial Haymaker for 3 point cost I would use this, however: +2 OCV, -2 DCV, +4 DC, extra Segement. (This is very similar to someone with OCV 9, DCV 9 making a normal Haymaker, except that guy didn't pay 3 CP for the maneuver).

[assault]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

I usually use Offensive Strike as the baseline maneuver when calculating how much damage a character with martial arts can do.

 

This is related to my Golden Age characters featuring brawling/boxing skills as a standard feature. A character with 20 STR and Offensive Strike can do 8 DC, which is my baseline level of competence for a superhero. Things can get a bit trickier for characters that can't really justify either 20 STR or extra DCs, but most of them have Judo (Martial Throw, etc) or other attack powers.

 

All of this is just my current fad, but it's consistent with what I've been doing for a long time.

[Tasha]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

Does anyone know who started or what the thread title was of the original thread referenced in these 2 old threads started by old board member Supreme?

 

Mixed Power-Level Campaign Update

 

Status of My Mixed Power-Level Campaign

 

I have spent an hour trying to find it with no luck. Looking back, I'm pretty sure it was on my mind when I started this thread. Basically he's dealing with some of the same issues being discussed in this thread but the approach is to ditch point balance completely.

 

I honestly don't care about point balance. Just as long as everyone falls within a certain range of DC, CV, and Def and each of the character's fits in it's own niche with only minor overlap (one character really good at the skill and another decent). Other than that I could give a fig about how many points your characters are. Heck, I give a point budget because most players get brain freeze when I try to run the open campaign.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

I honestly don't care about point balance. Just as long as everyone falls within a certain range of DC' date=' CV, and Def and each of the character's fits in it's own niche with only minor overlap (one character really good at the skill and another decent). Other than that I could give a fig about how many points your characters are. Heck, I give a point budget because most players get brain freeze when I try to run the open campaign.[/quote']

 

You just pointed out the exact reason I started a new thread for this topic instead of hijacking one of the many existing threads on caps.

I'm not trying to talk anyone out of using them the way they want. I just wanted to see how many people were open to alternatives.

[RexMundi]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

I care about balance, but it's Campaign and Story Balance I'm looking at. A lot of times, Points on a Page interferes with that and as such, requires a GM push shove and pull here and there. Role vs Roll again....

 

~Rex

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

Bumping for those that didn't see this thread from 6 months ago.

(And I think it is indirectly relevant to the current SPEED thread)

[The Main Man]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

I like this perspective. It gives me something to think about to be sure. It also gives me the idea of placing a standard damage class cap, but for every 5 points in "Code versus Killing" a player takes, they may have +1 Damage Class, but they also must use Pull Punch our else use fewer Active Points unless they succeed with an Ego roll.

[Balabanto]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

I care about world consistency, which is why my world has caps. For the most part, I want my world to simulate comic books. The chart looks something like this:

 

New Hero: 10d6

Experienced Hero: 12d6

Mightiest of the Mighty: 14d6

 

This is a pretty crude chart, but it's important to note that most people never get more than 12. They don't NEED it.

 

Some master villains and giant monsters throw between 15-20, but I have needed more dice than that only when someone falls off a building and can't fly.

 

There are a number of reasons for this.

 

1) In my game, combat is played on a battlemap. Because of this, we don't like to have battles that can't fit on the table.

 

2) If people can't reasonably fit the number of dice they need to roll in their hand, it slows the game down.

 

3) The caps in my game are not optimized for point efficiency.

 

The world is designed to support the mechanics I set up, so everything fits into the theme.

 

But I also have this key phrase that I follow when playing Champions.

 

"It's okay to lose." Four color comic book games seem to have lost their way here a little bit. Sometimes being defeated and/or losing is part of the genre.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

"It's okay to lose." Four color comic book games seem to have lost their way here a little bit. Sometimes being defeated and/or losing is part of the genre.

 

Yup - every major battle should have a "what if they lose" plan so the GM doesn't freeze up.

 

I recall a battle going south some years back and one player commenting "Guys, I think this is one of those fights we just weren't meant to win".

 

I hadn't actually intended them to lose. But some synergies in the villains worked exceptionally well, and the heroes made some "tactical errors". I put that in quotes because they had no way of knowing they were errors. In hindsight, they focused on the wrong targets early on, and got put down as a result.

 

So the villains hauled them off to their Evil Master (it was a cross-dimensional fantasy flight - involved Kor Hunter as I recall), who tossed them into an area against a Giant Slug (the Silly Putty "miniature" was quite well received), which they had little difficulty overcoming, after which they escaped into the city.

 

From defeat on, they talked about what they did wrong, what they now knew and how they would approach the inevitable rematch. Inevitable to everyone at the table but me. I ended up rewriting a portion of the scenario to include a rematch, simply because they were champing at the bit for one. The satisfaction when their well planned approach, with a little more knowledge of who they were up against, cleaned their opponents' clocks.

[Balabanto]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

I don't tread with point balance once the game is going but then I build along the ideas and frameworks of a comic book so handling disparaging levels of impact is relatively easy for me. Granted though it's case by case. Everyone and every situation is different.

 

~Rex

 

Rex. I love you to death. But you need to understand that you mean "disparate" levels of impact. A disparaging level of impact just tells me that I suck.

[Opale]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

Interesting topic you all made it be.

 

I tend to agree with most of what have been posted here, but I question myself and you all about the "balance" between OCV/DC and DCV/Defenses.

 

Per se, 12D6 is the average damage code of the 6th Edition. This with an average OCV 8 and +2 skill level. So 12D6/+10.

Based on this, and in my own vision of certain roles, I tend to play on this balance on purpose.

 

Like a BRICK character should be able to hit really hard, often with a 70 STR, but for an OCV 5-6 +2.

Reversally, a Martial Artist tends to be the kind of guy hitting targets really easily with OCV 10+2 (including maneuvers), so to me he should strike less powerful.

 

Same thinking about DCV/Defenses. The more you are able to soak damage, the less you should be dodging, and reversal.

 

Your points ? Am I missing something here ?

 

Balancing Opale

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

The original topic of this thread was NOT just about caps but rather how Character Psych Limitations/Complications can be used to allow a character to exceed those caps 'on paper' but only 'in game' during very specific circumstances.

 

Superman isn't unloading on a target with everything he's got unless he knows the opponent and knows that's the only effective means of stopping him (Darksied). Even when faced with an android as a target (Tabula Rasa - Amazo) in Justice League Animated he still holds back since the android up till this point has really only defended itself vs. the League and hasn't went out of its way to attack innocent bystanders.

[KX_Mushashi]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, I don't think I have seen it, but there are other things heroes can use strength for as well that they can use a full uncapped value for, Large portion of a building falling on them; get out of holds quicker with half strength rolls among others. I am also not big on post creation caps since you could end up with all your players with 60 strength, high defenses, high speeds and maxed powers.

 

For the Complications being the driving force not to use the power beyond the cap; not every player will abide by that so it has to be the consequence that drives them. If they know that the full force of Primus, Until, and just about every Superhero that calls them an ally would be brought down on them if they used their full power then most would think other wise. Normally I would say it would be a multiple offense deal unless they are just ruthless (16d6 with a fast move through on a normal human with military grade armor...that is going to be a one strike and they are hunting you down deal). Even better if they don't get the idea give the little human foot solider a life and have that life suddenly interact with the player character's life, such as a distressed loved one finding out what happened and asking why their loved one was injured so badly.

 

Personally I love playing characters that have to hold back a bit, it gives them another level to their personality. Thought it isn't something for everyone, if the player can do it well then why not let them, if it becomes an issue well that is what stripping them of their powers and having to still act like a hero is for.

[psyber624]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

My only problem with that is that it doesn't really affect the balance of the game. Someone with 12d6 (a common cap) will kill someone already so hero's are already having to hold back when they face weaker opponents. All you are doing by allowing 16d6 (or more) powers in the game is ensuring that the player that bought it gets to dominate any combat where it DOESN'T guarantee a kill. So I really don't see how complications lead to a solution to power levels "in game". Especially when you are talking about Standard attacks (vs killing attacks). Vs. your standard power supervillain (around 20 def) you need 20+DC of damage before you are running a real risk of doing ANY BODY damage to them, and if the rest of the game is built normally you can therefore throw 20d6 and either insta-KO or at the very least easily keep him stunned for an entire combat, and never worry about any possibilites of "ramifications".

 

And as far as Superman being used as an example, one of the biggest problems I have with the Man of Steel is that if you suspend "disbelief" for a moment the guy is an idiot. If he actually had the power to KILL these guys without trying then knocking them out should be easy as pie. Yet he routinely beats the snot out of the badguy for entire fight scenes, pounding and pounding and pounding away at them till they are KO'd or he is KO'd. I get that he can't precisely measure his strength to their defenses, so he has to hold back, but he sets his measure WAY too far on the safe side of the line, to the point where he is putting innocent lives at risk because he is afraid that he "might" actually hurt the badguy. He has no problem knocking a villain through 6 skyscrapers with a punch (he obviously used his X-ray vision to check that there were no innocents in the line of fire, or anywhere nearby where falling debris might hurt them right?) but yet he wont hit them hard enough to actually KO them before they can start shooting at innocents to get away.

 

The actual point I am trying to make with this is that "pulling his punches" is a plot device that allows the writers of Superman to "occasionally" have him be way more powerful that he is normally depicted. Which is fine for a comic book. And if that is what you are trying to run in a game then that's fine too, to each his own. But at that point in time your not running a game that cares about point totals, balance issues, or anything else, so you don't NEED a way to restrain your characters. Either all your players are on board or you don't have a game, PERIOD. In a campaign that is more about being a "game" than a "comic simulator" (and I don't intend any disrespect for either style with this, just pointing out a difference) then complications don't actually do the job at all.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

The level of restraint used by Superman usually means he doesn't even attempt to throw a punch until he's tried less violent tactics first (like grabbing the target). See the following scene from the very first appearance of the character in Superman: the Animated Series:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4eNjXaxo36I

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

Regarding the comments about Superman knocking Darkseid through buildings from the LAST episode of Justice League Unlimited it is worth noting that the character has probably either bought off some of his Psych Limitation/Complications or made the Ego roll required to bypass them by this point.

 

[The Main Man]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

Regarding the comments about Superman knocking Darkseid through buildings from the LAST episode of Justice League Unlimited it is worth noting that the character has probably either bought off some of his Psych Limitation/Complications or made the Ego roll required to bypass them by this point.

 

Hell, for anyone who watched Superman: TAS, it was an even bigger character moment. I'm not sure if it's often cited because it's thought of as license to use full power so much as it was pitch perfect writing, animation, and voice acting.

 

I do now think that it could make an excellent example of what it means to defy a Total PsychComp. I'd put Batman using a gun on Darkseid and The Doctor grabbing a gun to face the Time Lords in that same class. There's doubtlessly more.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Campaign Damage Caps, Code vs. Killing & Pulling a Punch

 

I like this perspective. It gives me something to think about to be sure. It also gives me the idea of placing a standard damage class cap, but for every 5 points in "Code versus Killing" a player takes, they may have +1 Damage Class, but they also must use Pull Punch our else use fewer Active Points unless they succeed with an Ego roll.

 

That's the kind of response I was hoping for.

[Ninja-Bear]

Our groups problem with pulling a punch is that by RAW there is a penalty associated with it. So you try to be heroic and take penalty? I would suggest of just elliminating the penalty altogether that would encourge pulling punches.