ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

[Steve]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Followers: I'd like to see some guidelines on Advantages and Limitations that could be applied to this Perk. For example, I have seen a suggestion of applying OIAID to it. Perhaps some Modifiers from Summon could also be adapted to use with Followers?

[megaplayboy]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Followers: I'd like to see some guidelines on Advantages and Limitations that could be applied to this Perk. For example' date=' I have seen a suggestion of applying OIAID to it. Perhaps some Modifiers from Summon could also be adapted to use with Followers?[/quote']

 

Well, I think back to pre-4th edition rules, and IIRC agents could be bought at various "loyalty" levels(8-,11-,14-). Seems like you could do something similar for followers.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I've relatively recently played some FATE and I like the aspects system. I'd hardly ask for a drastic introduction of anything like that to HERO, but here's a few things that I think could be interesting points to touch upon:

 

The Pros of Complications versus the Cons of Characteristics, Skills, Perks, Talents, and Powers.

 

We're all used to purchased abilities being generally positive while Complications (and to a similar extent, Power Limitations) are generally negative, but there are times when the opposite is true: appropriate Psychological Complications can buffer against Mental Powers or Presence Attacks in the right circumstances; Foci can be handed off to others (and used if Universal).

 

Those are mechanical elements of HERO that already cater to the idea, but I wonder if a proper discussion can bring it to light for further clarity in order to possibly improve the quality of roleplaying by promoting players to think more about the greater implications of what they put on their character sheet, most particularly how their character's personality and behavior is affected, if not their backgrounds and greater themes and motifs.

 

Have I lost anyone with my babbling?

 

This is a good idea. And repped.

[Christopher]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

The Pros of Complications versus the Cons of Characteristics' date=' Skills, Perks, Talents, and Powers.[/b']

Perhaps even rules for "Naked Limitations"

 

Some examples here:

The "Does No Body" Limitation can actually be an advantage for bricks with Code vs Killing, since they don't need to pull their punches when using it. Same goes for Blade-martial Artists, that don't need Club Maneuver and Pulling punches anymore.

The "Glinding only" modifier allows to fly with No End Loss over long distances (without it, you can only glide at half speed).

Variable Limitation doesn't helps here, since you always have to add some limitation (inlcuding ones that really hinder you, but this should reflect an advantage).

 

Perhaps the oposite approach:

Naked Anti-Limitations. Basically a Naked adder to "buy off" the Limitation when you don't want it.

So the Punch normally does No Body and the Flight is bought with Gliding only, but you also have the power construct to make them "normal" Punches and normal, unlimited Flight again.

[Christopher]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Perhaps even rules for "Naked Limitations"

I see that this is very difficulty/clumsy aproach. How about this easier approach:

There is a +1/4 advantage for "Useable as Other form of Movement", so you could take flight, also useable as "Gliding Only" Flight (thus you get full Combat Speed, No End Gliding + Normal Flight).

How about an advantage for "Useable as additional, favorably Limited form of the same Power"?

 

So you buy a normal Punch, 12d6 plus that Advantage.

And then you can use it as Punch 12d6 or Punch 12d6, Does No Body. And of course, you can buy that advantage as naked advantage for your punch.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Stolen from another thread (where the starting topic was "roll first, then declare level of effect for mental powers").

 

One thing I've noticed about Mental Powers based on the discussions I see - they seem to be hard to balance. Either they come out too powerful and people complain that they're combat-enders, or they come out too weak and the complaint is that they seem to do little or nothing.

 

So I think suggestions like this are useful additions to the toolbox - one more way to tweak the way Mental Powers work to try to hit that sweet spot where players are saying "Hey that's cool" but not "Hey! The psionic gets all the fun!"

 

This is definitely part of the problem. If the mentalist's targets pretty much always break out, the mentalist's player feels ripped off. If mental powers are highly effective, the players are unhappy when their PC's are targeted by mental powers.

 

A discussion of alternative mental power rules seems like a good APG type topic.

 

Another issue is the poor scaling of mental powers. In a 6 DC game with 5-8 defenses and 25-35 STUN being the norm, a Blast takes a target down in 3 or so hits. Bump the game to 12 DC's, 20-25 defenses and 40 - 50 STUN and the Blast still takes a target down in 3 or so hits. But a 6d6 Mental attack is hard pressed to make a +10 level of effect stick in the first game. A 12d6 mental power is much more effective in the second, because Ego tends not to rise at the same pace.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I was re-sorting my Hero books the other and came across Tuala Morn. This made me think: Since it's highly unlikely we'll ever get a 6th Edition version of that book (and even if we do), it would probably be good to have the Geas Disadvantage updated into a 6E Complication. I think it has potential beyond just that setting, and even beyond fantasy -- some mystical superheroes or supervillains could have a Geas, it probably has a place in some horror settings, and it could even come up in certain science-fiction/science-fantasy settings (I could see it just about anywhere in the spectrum from Star Wars to Farscape).

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I was re-sorting my Hero books the other and came across Tuala Morn. This made me think: Since it's highly unlikely we'll ever get a 6th Edition version of that book (and even if we do)' date=' it would probably be good to have the [i']Geas[/i] Disadvantage updated into a 6E Complication. I think it has potential beyond just that setting, and even beyond fantasy -- some mystical superheroes or supervillains could have a Geas, it probably has a place in some horror settings, and it could even come up in certain science-fiction/science-fantasy settings (I could see it just about anywhere in the spectrum from Star Wars to Farscape).

Even hard sci-fi - Mental programming.

[mattingly]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Another issue is the poor scaling of mental powers. In a 6 DC game with 5-8 defenses and 25-35 STUN being the norm' date=' a Blast takes a target down in 3 or so hits. Bump the game to 12 DC's, 20-25 defenses and 40 - 50 STUN and the Blast still takes a target down in 3 or so hits. But a 6d6 Mental attack is hard pressed to make a +10 level of effect stick in the first game. A 12d6 mental power is much more effective in the second, because Ego tends not to rise at the same pace.[/quote']

 

Cumulative mental powers might be a good topic to cover. If a 10d6 Mind Control tries to roll a +30 "Attack your sidekick!" gets halfway there, then I won't attack my sidekick, but maybe I'll be too busy with something else if he needs saving. Or else a stray blast might get pretty close. Essentially, I'd act as if I'd gotten hit with a the +10 EGO equivalent of that command, which might be "Quit protecting your teammate, and focus on something else first."

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Cumulative mental powers might be a good topic to cover. If a 10d6 Mind Control tries to roll a +30 "Attack your sidekick!" gets halfway there' date=' then I won't attack my sidekick, but maybe I'll be too busy with something else if he needs saving. Or else a stray blast might get pretty close. Essentially, I'd act as if I'd gotten hit with a the +10 EGO equivalent of that command, which might be "Quit protecting your teammate, and focus on something else first."[/quote']

That sounds like a "Partial Effect" advantage.

[Christopher]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

That sounds like a "Partial Effect" advantage.

Indeed.

 

And cumulative Mental Effects were already discussed in the APG I, but Partial Effect might be an intersting topic too. Anvything that get's the "All or nothing" Part out of the Mental Powers is a good thing.

 

Here one more Idea:

A designated "Knockback Only" Blast. Perhaps something like this:

4 Character Points for 2 Body, Knockback purposes only. Can still be combined with double Knockback. It's good a pummeling foes around, but has no effect of it's own.

Or if that's to much KB already, a limitation to make a Attacks have "Knockback Only" Effect.

 

Also a reviev of how unbalancing power like this can be (or how much KB/DC you should not exceed):

11d6 Cosmetic Transform, Does KB, Double KB (that's a valid 12 DC/60 Ap Power and let's just say: about 50% more Knockback than the 20 m average of a Killing Attack/Blast, Double KB or a 16d6 Cosmetic transform with Does KB).

[gojira]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Also a reviev of how unbalancing power like this can be (or how much KB/DC you should not exceed):

11d6 Cosmetic Transform, Does KB, Double KB (that's a valid 12 DC/60 Ap Power and let's just say: about 50% more Knockback than the 20 m average of a Killing Attack/Blast, Double KB or a 16d6 Cosmetic transform with Does KB).

 

This is a fun idea. Steve could even take power builds from the forumites here, for builds that are questionable but might have some applications. It could be a fun little "build a cheesy power" contest. Builds like Christopher's above strike me as "pure cheese" and should just plain be disallowed by a GM. But maybe a few examples of cheese might help out Hero Gamers who don't visit these forums. The emphasis I'd like to see would be on builds that might actually be reasonable, with some provisos of genre, character concept, and power levels.

[phoenix240]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

How about similar treatment for Physical Manifestation?

 

And maybe Computers too.

[dmjalund]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

And maybe Computers too.

If you don't buy a computer as a focus, its part of something/someone else, if you do - it would use the Focus rules (inclusing the Advanced rules suggested above)

[BobGreenwade]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

11d6 Cosmetic Transform' date=' Does KB, Double KB (that's a valid 12 DC/60 Ap Power and let's just say: about 50% more Knockback than the 20 m average of a Killing Attack/Blast, Double KB or a 16d6 Cosmetic transform with Does KB).[/quote']

 

This is a fun idea. Steve could even take power builds from the forumites here' date=' for builds that are questionable but might have some applications. It could be a fun little "build a cheesy power" contest. Builds like Christopher's above strike me as "pure cheese" and should just plain be disallowed by a GM. But maybe a few examples of cheese might help out Hero Gamers who don't visit these forums. The emphasis I'd like to see would be on builds that might actually be reasonable, with some provisos of genre, character concept, and power levels.[/quote']

Actually, I suspect that the "Reasoning From Effects" rule would cover a lot of it.

[megaplayboy]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Getting back to the really big objects thing--the mass of the universe(depending on which method used and what you're actually counting) is estimated between 10^53kg and 3.34 x 10^54 kg. Basically, that puts it between an 860 and 885 STR "lift" in Hero System. We could probably work out what level of STR equals out to the mass-energy of the universe, and then we'd know how many dice a punch equal to the Big Bang would be.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Getting back to the really big objects thing--the mass of the universe(depending on which method used and what you're actually counting) is estimated between 10^53kg and 3.34 x 10^54 kg. Basically' date=' that puts it between an 860 and 885 STR "lift" in Hero System. We could probably work out what level of STR equals out to the mass-energy of the universe, and then we'd know how many dice a punch equal to the Big Bang would be. [/quote']

...Roll Knockback.

[Steve Long]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Nothing to see here, folx -- just putting in a "place marker" so in case any further ideas/suggestions are posted I know where I left off in my reading.

[Christopher]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Here somethign more:

Rules for a "Rapid Transmission".

The character can form normal Transmissions very fast and can, if the other has Rapid Perception, communicate at 10, 100, 1000 times or more of normal persons speed (at least that way).

When the recepient hasn't Rapid Perception, the character just forms the transmisions very fast in his mind, but has mutliple Speech sinthesizers to transmit it at normal speed. But with Rapid Perception and Transmission only on his side, this could allow the character to hold 10, 100 or 1000 of conversations simultaniously.

Examples:

The Socrates in Campions online has terminals all around Millenium City and can talk with 10-100 heroes and monitor all emergency frequencies - all while making something really processor heavy "in the background". This doesn't require special interface hardware: he could prepare radio transmissions very fast and then send them at normal speed.

Any form of direct neural/computer or computer/computer uplink could have rapid transmission/perception at it's end - it's only the question how fast the other side can hear/transmit.

The species of the "Pilots" in Farscape have a ultra-fast, ultra complex language (you can't translate it, because you can't comprehend it fast enough).

 

Rules to mimik any martial arts maneuver, especially the ranged maneuvers from HSMA, with simple powers (intead of rather unwieldy MA). I mean there is no way to trip an enemy on range, without having to resort to MA (wich can be problematic with DC, OCV and DCV limits for attacks).

Ideally it should be possible to build a (more expensive) ultimate martial Arts Multipower. Including putting Advantages of those powers, without all the potentiall unbalacing effects of doing the same with MA.

[gojira]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

During the 6e discussions, I think the concept of Perception as a stat separate from Intelligence was mentioned. I didn't see this in the 6e Basic Set rules that I have, so I assume it got left out. Nevertheless, some players might still be interested. So: Perception as a separate stat. How to do it, whats the cost of adding a + or a -, plus any other impacts. A short discussion of what genres this might be most useful for (Horror Hero?).

 

 

* * *

 

OK got one more: was just thinking about saving throws. Is there such a thing in Hero System? I can't think of one. I want a Advantage/Lim for a power that says "Target can roll X- to prevent damage." X might be a skill, a stat, etc. This might work best as a modifier on NND or AVLD, where the limited defense or the NND defense is making the roll. Plus, additional costs or limitations for bonuses or penalties to the roll. Example "Target can roll (Int-)+3 to prevent damage" (That's figure your Int roll, then add three to it, then roll under the result.) This should be a lim, like maybe -1/4 for each additional +1 to +3 to the roll, since your power is easier to resist. Or you can have a power with "Target rolls (Con-)-4 to prevent damage" which would be an advantage since your power is harder to resist.

 

Plus, what's the advantage/limitation for "Target takes full damage if he fails, or half damage if he succeeds."

 

I basically want to build a power like "Player catches magical disease is they fail a CON roll at -2" type stuff.

 

OK, sorry if that's be covered elsewhere, or rejected already. Thanks for readin'!

[Armitage]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

OK got one more: was just thinking about saving throws. Is there such a thing in Hero System? I can't think of one. I want a Advantage/Lim for a power that says "Target can roll X- to prevent damage."

 

Something similar has been done, the "Stinking Vapors" power in Champions Powers, for example.

Only Applies If Victim Fails CON Roll (-1/2), with an additional Change Environment to create a penalty to the CON Roll.

 

Steve presented a more elaborate "Saving Throw" system in his HEROglyphs column in Digital Hero #18, with the value determined by the modifier to the roll and the amount a successful roll reduces the effect. I usually feel that agility and willpower saves are handled pretty well by Dodge, Dive for Cover, DCV, DMCV, Breakout Rolls, etc. A similar way to resist diseases, poisons, etc. through sheer stamina and toughness would be good, beyond just having enough BODY and STUN to survive and remain conscious.

[Steve Long]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

As Armitage kindly pointed out, I discussed the topic of "saving throws" in DH #18. That's about all I have to say on the subject, and I don't plan to put that material in APG2. It's a fun theoretical discussion but not really useful for the vast majority of HERO gamers, methinks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Plus' date=' what's the advantage/limitation for "Target takes full damage if he fails, or half damage if he succeeds."[/quote']

 

Sorry for the addendum on an issue already covered from the thread perspective, Steve.

 

That would be taking the "Only Applies If Victim Fails CON Roll (-1/2)" limitation on only half the attack. I could also see varying the "only if fails CON roll" limitation by applying penalties and/or modifying the limitation based on the typical CON scores in your game - in a Supers game, for example, a base CON roll tends to be pretty good, so I'd be OK with "Only if target fails a CON roll at -3", which would be 11- for the typical 23 CON Super getting the same limitation as a power that acts on an 11-. YMMV

 

I tend to agree that a sample power like this is sufficient to import a saving throw into Hero.

[ghost-angel]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I want to see 'Electric Boogaloo' on the cover, as part of the title.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: ADVANCED PLAYER'S GUIDE II -- What Do *You* Want To See?

 

As Armitage kindly pointed out' date=' I discussed the topic of "saving throws" in DH #18. That's about all I have to say on the subject, and I don't plan to put that material in APG2. It's a fun theoretical discussion but not really useful for the vast majority of HERO gamers, methinks.[/quote']That's a pity. I, for one, would at least have liked to see an extension of "Requires A Roll" to include "requires the target to fail a Characteristic Roll." Maybe a couple of paragraphs on that, and a small table?