Cyberpunk: how did it change?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

I don't think cyberpunk has changed. Some of the cosmetic details didn't come to pass' date=' like the idea that Japan would dominate the free world (looks like China stole their lunch on that one), or that rock and roll would be the dominant music form of the next social revolution just as it was for the boomers (this generation is less classy; its all gangsta rap, pop crap, and nu metal), or that corporations would be like unto border-less pseudo-nations that are a law unto themselves (turns out they're just people and want to dodge their taxes but still benefit from infrastructure provided by a wealthy federal power just like Joe Lunch-box), or that people would be more defined by how much technology they had embedded into them than by their own personality and self worth (turns out its more practical to keep the tech external but portable, so that you can upgrade every year thanks to short-cycled planned obsolescence).[/quote']

 

We could still be headed for all that (well, except for the China bit).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

--book list--

If you are going to include Richard Morgan, I'd say Thirteen is way more cyberpunk than the Altered Carbon series is. I quite like it. I really hoped he'd do a followup and explore more of the genetic variants and technology.

 

Market Forces, which is on your list, is also very cyberpunk for me and one of my faves. Car Wars + evil business consultants == awesome.

 

I don't know what genre the Altered Carbon series falls into exactly, but its a bit higher on the science fiction scale for me (bordering on science fantasy). I'm not a fan of the series, really. The first book was just kind of "meh" for me, and I liked each additional book less than the one before it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

Just as a point:

 

Neuromancer was effectively a spy thriller

Count Zero was a heist

Heavy Weather was an 'eco-thriller'

 

All of those are considered firmly Cyberpunk.

 

Yeah. Cyberpunk is an attitude. You can apply it to just about any story template.

 

Also, of these three, I like Count Zero the best. But, I never really liked Gibson that much...of all his books I think I liked Idoru the best. I know he's considered to be quintessential cyberpunk, and I don't dispute his stature in the genre or anything like that, but his lack of a real technological background always made me wince whenever he'd try to get detailed and his writing style never really hooked me.

 

I always felt like Gibson reaped the benefit of prior artists before him, like PKD, Bradbury, miscellaneous little known authors, or even Ayn Rand (it isn't considered cyberpunk by any stretch or means, but Atlas Shrugged actually hits several of the same basic chords as CP), and films like the Westworlds series, Clockwork Orange...THX-1138. Heck, Alien came out in 1979.

 

Anyway, that aside, I really gravitate more towards the "tech-noir" aspect of cyberpunk. Even though he came along a decade later, Neal Stephenson is my favorite overall "CP" author...and one of my faves in general in any {sub}-genre(s). I also have a soft spot for Charles Stross since he's, you know, one of us gamer geeks.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

Tend to agree with a lot of what's being said, but I just had to chime in with a little love for my personal all time favorite Cyberpunk book (which also spends most of it's time in "Non-urban" but street level environments)... "Hardwired" by Walter J. Williams.

 

Speaking of CP written by fellow gamers, how many authors write their own licensed game supplement?

[tkdguy]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

I don't think cyberpunk has changed. Some of the cosmetic details didn't come to pass, like the idea that Japan would dominate the free world (looks like China stole their lunch on that one), or that rock and roll would be the dominant music form of the next social revolution just as it was for the boomers (this generation is less classy; its all gangsta rap, pop crap, and nu metal), or that corporations would be like unto border-less pseudo-nations that are a law unto themselves (turns out they're just people and want to dodge their taxes but still benefit from infrastructure provided by a wealthy federal power just like Joe Lunch-box), or that people would be more defined by how much technology they had embedded into them than by their own personality and self worth (turns out its more practical to keep the tech external but portable, so that you can upgrade every year thanks to short-cycled planned obsolescence).

 

But that is just details.

 

Cyberpunk is about the immediate future being worse than the immediate past, about the things that are supposed to make our lives better making them worse, about centralization and homogenization being bad and individualistic self determination and sticking it to the man being good, about technology being empowering but dangerous to people-psychology-society-humanity, and about knowing that its hopeless and you are @%#!-ed but still having the moxy to strike a bold pose while doing your own thing to grab a little piece for yourself, and refusing to give the universe the satisfaction of consenting to its pitiless victimization of you and everyone you know.

 

That is just as relevant today as it was 20 odd years ago...maybe more so given the state of the world today. But the problem is, cyberpunk was a collection of cautionary tales...that the world largely did not listen to; and nobody likes to hear "I told you so". It's like we got all the boring work-a-day economy crushing parts foretold in CP, and none of the kewl stuff like being able to get cyber'd out and walk around armed to the teeth and have wild cyber-sex with a psycho razor girl like Molly Millions. Cyberpunk was cool...but now that we are living a watered down version of it it's just grim and depressing.

 

So...cyberpunk isn't dead, but it's tricky to tell a cyberpunk story when it it sometimes seems like it belongs in the non-fiction / current events section.

 

Funny you should mention that. I was observing people on the train a few weeks ago. Most of the people I observed were busy with their cell phones or laptops. And when I took into account the way things have been going lately in the economy, a watered-down cyberpunk was exactly the feel I got.

[Mister E]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

The Quicksilver Screen (1992) was a good cyberpunk.

[Susano]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

So...cyberpunk isn't dead' date=' but it's tricky to tell a cyberpunk story when it it sometimes seems like it belongs in the non-fiction / current events section.[/quote']

 

Many times while working and writing Kazei 5, I felt like reality was catching up to and even passing my fictional future.

[dmjalund]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

Count Zero?

Twice!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

One of the mistakes, IMO, CP gaming has always made was thinking corp-wars would revolve around the tech, the mil-tech, and all that.

 

It's the marketing, the consumer. Megapop stars, and it's evolved. Now we have social-networking wars. Facebook hiring ghost PR firms to slam Google.

 

As for the need for 'urban'? - another gaming only muddle.

 

Chunks of Islands In The Net (Sterling) are on an oil rig, and resort hotels.

Neuromancer is half in space. Count Zero is in the desert for most of the first 1/3.

Snowcrash ends on a giant flotilla at sea.

Heavy Weather is in the dust bowl.

Software (Rucker) is half on the moon, half in a FL retirement community.

 

CP is anywhere it needs to be.

 

Yeah...True Names is in some reclusive author's den...

 

Some kinds of CP is simply in your head.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

Another pure Cyberpunk move - The London Olympics Brand Exclusion Zone.

 

You can be arrested for wearing a t-shirt with the wrong company logo in the wrong place during the Olympics.

 

That's as cyberpunk as it gets. Flat out.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

Another pure Cyberpunk move - The London Olympics Brand Exclusion Zone.

 

You can be arrested for wearing a t-shirt with the wrong company logo in the wrong place during the Olympics.

 

That's as cyberpunk as it gets. Flat out.

 

Hey, honest businessmen like Uncle Enzo have to protect their brand identity and sponsorship dollars. And remember Cosa Nostra Pizza* is the ONLY pizza good enough for the gods of Mount Olympus!

 

 

 

 

 

*proud sponsors of the 2012 Olympics

[Guest Celt]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

I felt Inception was a cyberpunk film.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

I felt Inception was a cyberpunk film.

 

I agree.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

"Cyberpunk? Didn't That Die In The 80's Along With Billy Idol?"

 

http://www.segarevolution.co.uk/reviews/shadowrun-review

[Ragitsu]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

What are some good cyberpunk comics?

[Susano]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

What are some good cyberpunk comics?

 

Bubblegum Crisis: Grand Mal (Dark Horse Comics)

Darkminds (Dreamwave Productions)

Dirty Pair: A Plague of Angels (Dark Horse Comics)

Dirty Pair: Fatal But Not Serious (Dark Horse Comics)

Dirty Pair: Sim Hell (Dark Horse Comics)

 

Akira* (Dark Horse Comics)

AD Police (Viz Media)

AD Police 25:00

Appleseed* (Dark Horse Comics)

Battle Angel Alita (Viz Media)

Battle Angel Alita: Last Order (Viz Media)

Dominion (Dark Horse Comics)

Dominion: Conflict 1 (No More Noise) (Dark Horse Comics)

Ghost in the Shell* (Dark Horse Comics)

Ghost in the Shell 1.5: Human-Error Processor (Dark Horse Comics)

Ghost in the Shell 2: Man Machine Interface (Dark Horse Comics)

Hyper Police (Tokyopop)

Sakura Taisen (Tokyopop)

Seraphic Feather (Dark Horse Comics)

Silent Möbius (Viz Media)

Striker (Viz Media)

[Old Man]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

That seems to be a very manga-slanted list. Although I have to admit, the Japanese took to cyberpunk in a way that the U.S. never did. I can't think of any American cyberpunk comics off the top of my head.

[Susano]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

That seems to be a very manga-slanted list. Although I have to admit' date=' the Japanese took to cyberpunk in a way that the U.S. never did. I can't think of any American cyberpunk comics off the top of my head.[/quote']

 

That's because I took it from the bibliography of Kazei 5.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

About two issues of Neuromancer in comic form.

 

Accelerate (Richard Kadrey) - graphic novel

Transmetropolitan (Warren Ellis)

Heavy Liquid (Paul Pope)

100% (Paul Pope)

Channel Zero (Brian Wood)

User (Devin Grayson)

Singularity 7 (Brian Templesmith)

The Hacker Files (Lewis Shiner) - I have never read these.

Cyberella (I think this was trying to be a CP Tank Girl... I read half an issue once...)

Aeon Flux (written as a run-up to the movie IIRC)

Cyberpunk (never read it, looked like it was trying too hard)

Nathan Never (this was more a magazine like 2000AD than a single comic)

Do Androids Dream Of Electric Sheep? (got a comic adaption...)

 

And I've always considered Those Annoying Post Brothers to be CP, if only because it was ^%@#$ insane and I liked it. It doesn't actually qualify beyond that.

 

and there are a few others I've run across over the years from fly-by-night publishers, independents, and the occasional drop in the ocean. Those are the ones you can actually find though.

 

many story lines running through 2000AD (can't think of any off the top of my head though) I'm sure could be kicked into this bucket.

 

So, some US comics. Certainly not as many, running as long as the Manga. US Comic readers tend to sort of shy away from non-superhero stuff.

[Ravor]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

In my opinion, the most important part of cyberpunk isn't the cyber, it's the PUNK, and that is what seems to be missing even from modern so-called "cyberpunk" rpgs today, gone are the "pink mohawk" days where merely being a wageslave justified being geeked because you "had sold your soul to the man". For that matter, the very nature of the mega corps seems to have changed as well, now instead of treating their wageslaves as cattle, including billing them for the very drugs being pumped through the air and laced in the watercooler, not to mention the madatory upgrades needed to perform their jobs; they are instead treated with a veener of respect and human decency because quiting corp A and seeking citizenship with corp B is no longer a possible death sentence only dared as a last resort and then only with something valuable enough to "buy your way in". For that matter, a wageslave can actually hope and expect to possibly rise into the ranks of at least lower-to-mid management. The idea that the "lucky few" who merit a commute to work will see five muggings, three murders, and a rape each day seems to be gone as well. "Illegal" bloodsport is no longer shown on major PPP channels and are in fact the top rated shows.

 

 

Or to make a long story short, to me cyberpunk can be summed up with the saying, "Bullets are cheap, life is worthless." And that seems to be gone now-a-days.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

[Old Man]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

Or to make a long story short, to me cyberpunk can be summed up with the saying, "Bullets are cheap, life is worthless." And that seems to be gone now-a-days.

 

Perhaps because it has become uncomfortably close to reality?

[Ragitsu]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

Perhaps because it has become uncomfortably close to reality?

 

This is part of why my cyberpunk is of the 1980s and 1990s variety.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

pft. CP was never completely about that crap. and mohawks have almost nothing to do with being punk beyond being a harmless, nearly acceptable, form of visual rebellion. It just makes you an easy mark.

 

Case and Molly worked for megacorps - they weren't street toughs taking down "the man". So did pretty much everyone in Count Zero.

 

Islands In The Net was all about a corp war.

 

Ambient was the closest you get with its revolution undertones. But more against religious themes (oh, Church of Elvis... you evil evil thing) than corporate ones.

[Legendsmiths]

Re: Cyberpunk: how did it change?

 

I think the issue with cyberpunk's lack of appeal, other than many of the things the punks railed against became a reality and nobody cared, is similar to the lack of appeal for hard scifi - progress threatens fantasy.

 

When you think back to the cyberpunk of then or playing Traveller in the 70s/80s the future of then was beyond reach. The rate of progress at that time is such that we thought it would be decades before we got there, instead of just one. So we dreamed of the future, and that dream was fueled by the events of the time - the launch of the space shuttle, the viking missions, space lab, computers that could play chess! When all of those things ceased to inspire people, as the space program largely has, and we have most of the tech from cyberpunk plus all of the privacy invasions and corporate power, it looks quaint.

 

Compare that to fantasy or even historical era roleplaying - those periods are not threatened by progress. Sci-fi however is about what could be, and is threatened daily by progress, and cyberpunk doubly so because it is near-future instead of far-future.

 

I think the transhuman vision presents an opportunity for roleplaying and exploring a new era of sci-fi, and games like Eclipse Phase or Nova Praxis do a good job of addressing that. But those aren't cyberpunk.

 

To play it, it has to be retro future, the future of the 80s not the future of now, and if you didn't live in the 80s that's harder to grasp. Retro future can work, ala Steam Punk, but I think that's the way to play it.