Legendsmiths Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns Then change it to AoE: Line. 150cm is 60 Inches across, that's a 5 foot spread. But it still doesn't hit everyone in the line, and that's at 37m. Most combats at the heroic level occur at much less than that range, typically 16m or less. At that range the spread is even narrower. AE is just not appropriate. The spread does increase the chance to hit, especially smaller targets, but other than 2 targets standing adjacent it is very unlikely you will hit more than one target. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legendsmiths Posted May 25, 2011 Report Share Posted May 25, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns Don't know that I can agree with modification by gauge. My 12g and .410 are the same length' date=' and nearly the same weight. For that matter, the 12g can be disassembled much easier, and to a smaller size. There's also some shotguns that merely switch out parts so that the gun stays the same size, but the bore changes. I would base the concealment modifier strictly on total length, as both stock and barrel can be shortened.[/quote'] Good to know. I think that's fair. So how about 4g-16g = +7. 20g-.410 = +6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns Doubt Ought buck is 8.4mm, a single shell holds 7-9 pellets. So, even just assuming the idea of a 16m cone, you can hit a maximum of 9 people with one shell, 18 with two. I personally find the whole construct suspect, and wouldn't use it at all if I wanted a 'realistic sawed off blast' - but since we're using that build I'm suggesting ways to work with the idea that close up is more deadly than far away. Buck are not bullets, the round shot reacts completely differently than the elongated bullet as well. And the text doesn't really address using a choke to increase effective range, packing the shell (sawdust is common) to tighten the pattern, or any number of tricks with shells to adjust how it spreads. If I really wanted to get into I would have to completely rewrite the section on shotguns. I don't. Explosive Cone works pretty much perfectly for me: up close you can get hit with multiple pellets which will do more damage than getting hit with a single pellet. Composition and ballistics is also important. Shot tends to be made out of round lead or other soft metals. It loses velocity faster and has less penetrating power (than regular bullets). Its very scary due to multiple shot hitting a target, especially close in, but given range or an interposition it quickly loses its edge. It is highly ineffective against kevlar. Even protective clothing like a thick leather jacket or a fireman's coat can stop it depending on shot weight and range. Or dry wall. A bullet will often rip through what shot will not. Which is not to diminish the effectiveness of a shotgun, which is an optimal weapon for many scenarios. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orion Posted May 26, 2011 Report Share Posted May 26, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns Good to know. I think that's fair. So how about 4g-16g = +7. 20g-.410 = +6. It's okay, if you want to give some slight benefit to those using the smaller calibers. But realistically, I would give the same concealment modifier to all of them, and make it exactly the same as the modifier for a standard hunting rifle. Barrel length is dependent upon the type of hunting being done (long barrels for special geese guns, short for hunting grouse and woodcock timber, standard for most everything else), not on the gauge. Even this length difference is typically on the order of 4-6" max. The stock and action will have much the same length for all of them. Weight is dependent on gauge, but also on type (auto vs pump vs double barrel), and style (featherlights are noticeably lighter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hida Tsuzua Posted May 27, 2011 Author Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns While playing out a fight I noticed another odd thing about going AE with a shotgun. Since the area DCV is fixed at 3, it can be harder to hit someone with a shotgun than it is with a normal firearm on the lower end. I noticed this when I had some OCV and DCV gangastas with shotugns and mac10s shooting it up. When they were firing on someone who was bracing (so 2 DCV), the mac10s hit on a 13- while the shotgun users hit only a 10-. My guess is that maybe shotguns shouldn't be AEs, but instead be +2-3 OCV. Then when the damage is reduced by 1 due to range increase the OCV bonus by 1. That or remove reduced by range and just allow people to spread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns Uh, DCV 3 is generally the low end of the DCV svales. My experience is it's easier to hit an area.... A 10- to hit DCV means you have an OCV of 2... That's really low.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns yeah, as I've been following this I keep thinking that if the Spreading rules work for KA's in 6th, the best approach might be just extra DC's, only to spread, that get reduced by range same as the rest of the attack. taking down the barrel would add additional "spread only" DC's while adding Negative Range PSL's to match, while cutting down the stock drops -1 OCV and removes the ability to Brace Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns while cutting down the stock drops -1 OCV and removes the ability to Brace Cutting down the stock should just make the Shotgun a 1h weapon with a +3 to Str Min. Because Pistols can brace, Shotguns and Rifles with cut off stocks still should be able to brace as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted May 27, 2011 Report Share Posted May 27, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns Cutting down the stock should just make the Shotgun a 1h weapon with a +3 to Str Min. Because Pistols can brace' date=' Shotguns and Rifles with cut off stocks still should be able to brace as well.[/quote'] Yeah, that's the current by the book approach. It's great for the usual Cinematic approach that is the default for HERO, but my suggestion was more on the lines of Gritty realisim. Most combat shooting instructors I'm familiar with suggest leaving the stock intact even for shortened barrel close combat shotguns, because removing the stock makes most shotguns difficult to control. Bracing a stockless shotgun under realistic conditions means hipshooting, which removes any direct barrel sighting, or bracing on cover/dropping prone and using the ground, which I'd consider to be perfectly reasonable exceptions to the"Can't Brace" idea. Maybe call it "Hard to Brace" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns You want shotguns to work like 00:24 -> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKkONAGRt6g ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted May 29, 2011 Report Share Posted May 29, 2011 Re: Sawed Off Shotguns But it still doesn't hit everyone in the line' date=' and that's at 37m. Most combats at the heroic level occur at much less than that range, typically 16m or less. At that range the spread is even narrower. AE is just not appropriate. The spread does increase the chance to hit, especially smaller targets, but other than 2 targets standing adjacent it is very unlikely you will hit more than one target.[/quote'] Please don't tell me you're in favor of altering a weapon's range purely because of "typical" (I say this, though you didn't) combat distances. I'm a big fan of fixed ranges. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.