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In Hero 6E, how would you buy an Attack that just knocks back opponents? I can envision a Jedi attack where they knock back several opponents with just a wave of their hand. The attack doesn't do any damage (directly) but those affected are knocked back and/or knocked down. I see two options.

 

1) Blast or RKA. Perhaps bought with Double Knockback advantage and a "Does Knockback Only, No Damage" limitation. I was thinking about -1 or -1 1/2 limitation sounds reasonable. What do you think the limitation is worth?

 

2) Telekinesis. Perhaps it's better simulated with a TK Attack. The problem here is that it would require separate Grab and a Throw Attacks.

 

Would one of these be better or is there another option I have not considered? Thanks in advance to Herodom.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

Shove Attack, 6E2 79

Or use Martial Throw, that one works without grab (but you may need the Weapon element, see HSMA for Ranged Martial Arts)

 

But overall it would be nice to have a Throw that works without Grab and doesn't has to be bought as Martial Arts.

 

Edit: Forget the last sentecne, Shove is the "Throw without Grab". And It only works on resisting targets, wheras normal Throw only works on Grabbed targets (with grapping being free for unresisting targets).

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

Pure House Rules, but back in 4e my most frequent GM invented a power called 'Knockback Blast'. Basically the same as Energy Blast, but it did 1" (2m) of Knockback for each Normal BODY rolled on the dice, then modified for situation (such as adding 1d6 for the target being airborne). He had based it off 3e mechanics, where you could alter the base number of dice you rolled to determine knockback, and taking away the 2d6 of Knockback and making it deal no STUN evened out at a -0. Obviously, you couldn't just put Double Knockback on it, that'd be silly. :)

 

Telekinesis, only to Grab and Throw is another, more book legal, possibility, but you said that already. :)

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

I once designed a "sonic shockwave" attack which was a hearing flash with the Does Knockback and Extra Knockback advantages. (It also had a cone explosion AoE, but that's beside the point here.) Because it affected a non-targeting sense, it was cheap, did a LOT of knockback, and aside from deafening its victims for a few segments, did no damage whatsoever, aside from whatever damage accrued from the knockback. I suppose you could put a "does no flash damage" limitation on it to save even more points/negate the flash effect, depending on the special effects of the power.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

In my opinion, the cheapest and best way is Dispel Knockback Resistance, Does Knockback +1/4, Double Knockback +1/2. 5.25 points per die. For 58 points you do an average of 30m knockback ((22-7)*2) and ignore the first 15m of Knockback Resistance possessed by the target.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

In my opinion' date=' the cheapest and best way is Dispel Knockback Resistance, Does Knockback +1/4, Double Knockback +1/2. 5.25 points per die. For 58 points you do an average of 30m knockback ((22-7)*2) and ignore the first 15m of Knockback Resistance possessed by the target.[/quote']

 

I have no idea why, but that FEELS incredibly cheesy. I'm certain a more analytical approach would yield different results ... but something feels wrong about that. :)

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

In my opinion' date=' the cheapest and best way is Dispel Knockback Resistance, Does Knockback +1/4, Double Knockback +1/2. 5.25 points per die. For 58 points you do an average of 30m knockback ((22-7)*2) and ignore the first 15m of Knockback Resistance possessed by the target.[/quote']

 

They still get the KB Resistance for the Phase you make the attack in, they'll lose any KB Resistance they had for subsequent attacks. Also, it does nothing against a target with no Knockback Resistance.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

Here's a fleshed out Jedi TK version (built under 5er rules).

 

Using the Ranged Martial Throw it does 6d6 based on the TK STR alone.

 

 

30 Jedi Combat TK: Telekinesis (20 STR), Area Of Effect Accurate (One Hex; -0 Limitation: Can Be Blocked/Deflected (If Perceivable); +1/2), Invisible Power Effects (Fully Invisible; -0 Limitation: Visible to Mental Sense Group; +1) (75 Active Points); Instant (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (Active Point penalty to Skill Roll is -1 per 20 Active Points; -1/4), Affects Whole Object (-1/4) 7

Notes: Advanced practitioners should be allowed to buy off the Instant and Affects Whole Object Limitations either directly or by way of a separate Naked Power.

 

Jedi TK Arts: Basic

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

8 +2 HTH Damage Class(es)

3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 40 STR for holding on

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 6d6 +v/5, Target Falls

5 Takeaway +0 +0 Grab Weapon, 40 STR to take weapon away

 

-8 Jedi TK Arts: Advanced, Private Adder

(only listed to show possible advanced maneuvers)

Maneuver OCV DCV Notes

4 Choke Hold -2 +0 Grab One Limb; 3d6 NND

4 Crush +0 +0 10d6 Crush, Must Follow Grab

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

How do you figure?

 

It's in the APG. And here's what Steve has to say about it in the FAQ:

If a character has a Power like Flash, Drain, or Dispel with the Advantage Does Knockback, and the target lacks the Sense or ability the Power affects, does the target still take Knockback?

 

No. As noted on APG 54, an Adjustment Power with a secondary effect (such as Does Knockback, which is specifically cited) doesn’t have that secondary effect if the target doesn’t have the Characteristic/Power/whatever that the Adjustment Power affects. For example, a Drain Blast, Does Knockback, if used against a target with no Blast attack, has no effect at all — it doesn’t cause Knockback. Generally speaking, this reasoning extends to other powers, including Dispel (which is similar to Adjustment Powers in many ways), Flash, and the like. If the target cannot be affected by the power because he lacks what it targets (e.g., a blind person hit with a Sight Group Flash; a person without Flight hit with Dispel Flight), then the secondary effect (such as Does Knockback) also cannot apply. Note, however, that having a lot of defense against an attack (e.g., enough Sight Group Flash Defense to totally block a Flash) or being temporarily immune to a power (e.g., a character being protected from Sight Group Flashes because he was just affected by one and is now temporarily blind) does not qualify as “cannot be affected” — as used above, that term generally means it’s impossible for the character ever to be affected, not just temporarily impossible. As always, the GM should apply these rules with an eye toward common sense, dramatic sense, special effects, and game balance.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

How do you figure?

 

From the rules FAQ:

On APG 54 it notes that if an Adjustment Power has a secondary effect (such as the Does Knockback Advantage), then the secondary effect doesn't apply if the target doesn't have the Characteristic or Power that the Adjustment Power was built to affect. How would this work in the case of an Adjustment Power that affects more than one ability simultaneously, and the target has some of those abilities and not others?

 

As long as the target has at least one game element that the Adjustment Power can affect, secondary effects (such as Does Knockback) apply, even if the Adjustment Power has only partial effect against that game element.

 

.....

 

If a character has a Power like Flash, Drain, or Dispel with the Advantage Does Knockback, and the target lacks the Sense or ability the Power affects, does the target still take Knockback?

 

No. As noted on APG 54, an Adjustment Power with a secondary effect (such as Does Knockback, which is specifically cited) doesn’t have that secondary effect if the target doesn’t have the Characteristic/Power/whatever that the Adjustment Power affects. For example, a Drain Blast, Does Knockback, if used against a target with no Blast attack, has no effect at all — it doesn’t cause Knockback. Generally speaking, this reasoning extends to other powers, including Dispel (which is similar to Adjustment Powers in many ways), Flash, and the like. If the target cannot be affected by the power because he lacks what it targets (e.g., a blind person hit with a Sight Group Flash; a person without Flight hit with Dispel Flight), then the secondary effect (such as Does Knockback) also cannot apply. Note, however, that having a lot of defense against an attack (e.g., enough Sight Group Flash Defense to totally block a Flash) or being temporarily immune to a power (e.g., a character being protected from Sight Group Flashes because he was just affected by one and is now temporarily blind) does not qualify as “cannot be affected” — as used above, that term generally means it’s impossible for the character ever to be affected, not just temporarily impossible. As always, the GM should apply these rules with an eye toward common sense, dramatic sense, special effects, and game balance.

 

edit: scooped!!

 

I don't particularly like this ruling but I understand the reasons behind it.

 

I think the rules(pre-6e at least) should have included a 3 point base Power that does nothing* unless it has a required Does KB Advantage (like a reverse of the HTH Limitation on HA Attacks). Without it, no damage KB attacks either have to work with the above rule or be based on an EB with Double KB (which is cheaper in 6e). This then runs into active point issues for Multipowers and VPP's using the EB method with 60 active (8d6 x2KB EB) vs. 10d6 base nothing* (@3/d6) with Does KB, x2 KB & 1/2 END (60 active).

 

Of course some GM's will think even 16 average Body is too much KB let alone 20" (before rolling 3d6 and any KB resistance).

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

Okay, what is so wrong with Shove?

You get a gauranteed 1 BODY of KB Effect for ever 5 STR (AP) used, and unlike Blast it doesn't suffer from DN.

 

And you can easily build a +40 TK STR (for your normal 20), Only for Shove (-2), Increased Endurance only to activate (enough for -1), so using it effectively only costs 15 Real Points.

 

I also just asked Steve if a Naked Double Knockback Advantage for STR/Telekintik STR affects Shove. If yes, you can easily limit the Double Knockback to "Shove only":

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/85386-Shove-and-Double-Knockback?p=2170558#post2170558

 

The only thing potentially better:

8d6 Blast, Double Knockback (+1/2), Does no Body or STUN except for puposes of Knockback (-1 1/2). Real Cost: 24

Note that this would cost 60 AP, count as 12 DC (Double K is a DC increasing advantage) and Damagae Negation applies, but you have a fairly certain 16 Knockback BODY Effect. Go for Standart Effect and you have a fixed 16 Knockback BODY effect.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

Okay, let's crunch some numbers. The best way to see what maneuver is the best for Throwign enemys around, without doing damage.

Let's asume a 12 DC campaing and a standart 100 Kilo Target:

12d6 Blast/HTH does 12-2d6 x2m, or 10 m average

8d6 Blast/HTH Double K does 16-2d6 x2m, or 18 m average

4d6 KA does 14-3d6 x2m, or 8 m average

2.5d6 KA, double K does 20-3d6 x2m, or 20 m average

60 STR shove does 12m

40 STR Telekinetik shove does 8m

60 STR Throw has 50 extra STR

Running Throw has 80m

Standing Throw has 40m

Prone Throw has 20m

40 STR Telekinetik Throw (that I asume to always count as a standing Throw), would get 24m

 

Notes:

Shove suffers less from KB-resistance: ever -1d6 is only -1m

Martial maneuvers reduce Knockback by another 1d6

Martial Throw allows adding of velocity.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

If Dispel doesn't work' date=' Cosmetic Transform should. Still 3/die base, and no problems with the target lacking something.[/quote']

An Option: Yes.

 

Let's do the numbers, like above:

16d6 Cosmetic Transform, Does Knockback: 16-2d6 x2m, or average 18m

11d6 Cosmetic Transform, Does KB, Double KB. 22-2d6 x2m, or average 30m

 

Okay, works better than I thought at first

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

As a GM you need to be careful of these types of attacks they may exceed the DC limits without exceeding the AP limit.

All my calculations above where for 12 DC. Both Does Knockback and Double Knockback count for DC calculation.

I am more worried about the balance, as you take nearly twice the KB that a Blast does.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

All my calculations above where for 12 DC. Both Does Knockback and Double Knockback count for DC calculation.

I am more worried about the balance, as you take nearly twice the KB that a Blast does.

But you should figure the DC based on the number dice of damage from knockback, I had a character with a Teleport UAA(and some other Advantages) the AP/DC of the attack was within the campaign limits(42 APs in game where the limit was 75 APs) but it did 30d6 damage.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

But you should figure the DC based on the number dice of damage from knockback' date=' I had a character with a Teleport UAA(and some other Advantages) the AP/DC of the attack was within the campaign limits(42 APs in game where the limit was 75 APs) but it did 30d6 damage.[/quote']

Goog point, indeed. When KB them into the earth, the Transform/Dispel double KB build can do 15d6 normal Damage on average.

The normal average is 5 or 4D6

With double KB it's 9/10d6.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

Let's look for Minimum and Maximum KB this time:

12d6 Blast/HTH does 0/24-2d6 x2m, or 0/44m (22d6)

8d6 Blast/HTH Double K does 0/32-2d6 x2m, 0/60m (30d6)

4d6 KA does 4/24-3d6 x2m, 0/42m (21d6)

2.5d6 KA, double K does 6/30-3d6 x2m, 0/60m (30d6)

16d6 Cosmetic Transform, Does Knockback: 0/32-2d6 x2m, 0/60m (30d6)

11d6 Cosmetic Transform, Does KB, Double KB. 0/44-2d6 x2m, 0/84m (42d6)

 

Edit:

I would say 44m is limit for non Double KB attack

60m is limit for Double KB attack

The cosmetic transform archives later as normal KB Attack, so it could be over powered.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

I would seriously just use TK with a Shove attack. First, it is simple. Second, for a Jedi-type "force shove," it makes the most SFX sense. Third, it avoids a lot of the nearly-abusive ideas I have seen in these threads.

 

TK is already priced as STR with the Ranged advantage, IIRC.

 

I would seriously recommend avoiding any power concept that has you adding "Does Knockback" to anything other than a standard attack power - even adding it to a Flash can seriously break AP balance.

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Re: Knockback Attack

 

I would seriously just use TK with a Shove attack. First' date=' it is simple. Second, for a Jedi-type "force shove," it makes the most SFX sense. Third, it avoids a lot of the nearly-abusive ideas I have seen in these threads.[/quote']

When you want to perfectly mimic Force-Shove, you could take Psychokinesis and apply a "Limited Range" Limitation, simulating that it's very short range power. maybe limit on (TK)-STR?

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