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Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?


Michael Hopcroft

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Because the past has the Sith. They don't want to do without Sith, but they don't want to undo the victory at the end of the movies either.

 

Although actually the "Old Republic" games could be considered to take place in a parallel universe anyway which makes the question moot.

Do you have any information that makes such a scenario likely?

 

All information I have suggests, that every bit of the KoTOR 1+2 Storylines and whatever is shown in the MMO could easily have happened in the "Real" timeline. The mere differences in time make whatever happens there just irrelevant for the future, so I doubt any paralell universe is needed.

That is also why i think they will be stuck in the past for future works - simply because they need some setting where they can tell whatever they want without ever conflicting with the movies.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Because the past has the Sith. They don't want to do without Sith, but they don't want to undo the victory at the end of the movies either.

 

Although actually the "Old Republic" games could be considered to take place in a parallel universe anyway which makes the question moot.

 

Wait... a parallel Universe to the first movies (4,5, and 6), or a parallel to the Prequels (1,2, and 3)...

 

Remember when Luke asks, Obi-wan tells him that he met his father when he was a fighter pilot already, and no I don't buy into the Obi-wan was lying bit... not to mention there were enough other problems between the two, that I consider the prequels a alt. universe anyway. But I'm a (prequel) hater who believes that Han shot first.

 

Also a bit of Cheek added into the post ;).

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

The problem I have with midi-chlorinated jedi gene pool postulations is that they (imho) are based on the assumption that there needs to be some hokey science behind the force that wasn't sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic to galactic era spacefarers.

 

Belief in the force has already been reduced to a hokey religion. Midichlorians have no scientific priority. If Obi-Wan Kenobi is quixotic, then Qui-Gon Jinn is practicing pop-medical new age voodoo.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

In order my thoughts are.

 

1. The fact that they keep referring to the video game universe as the "Old Republic" may indicate that this is a polity which eventually collapsed into low tech barbarism and had to rebuild and the claims that the Republic has lasted for thousands of years are just so much bushwah. They make it based on the claim their Republic is the same as the old Republic, so they have an absurd claimed lifespan for their civilisation for the same reason China did. No, the Chinese empire did not last for thousands of years. There were a bunch of different Chinese empires, each claiming the mantle of the previous one. While in fact it's implausible that an interstellar culture could technologically backslide all that much all over the place, the Long Night is a classic old school science fiction gimmick.

 

2. Just because we never see squad support weapons in the Trilogy doesn't mean they aren't there. The only pitched infantry battle we saw was against Ewoks where lots of damage dice is beside the point.

 

3. The galaxy as depicted in the six movies is supposed to be stagnant, in a Spenglerian final state much like the Empire of the Foundation series which had also stopped innovating and had abandoned the scientific method in favour of mere scholarship. Spengler's model of the rise and fall of civilisations is now discredited but it was popular in the 50s and 60s of science fiction which this universe hearkens back to.

 

These were pretty much the points I was going to make. The Star Wars galaxy is a society in a slow decline. Due to several galaxy-spanning wars that causes society to fall into barbarism from which they have to pull out of. In some of the Expanded Universe novels they are discovering technologies from the Old Republic era (from before the Sith Wars) that is far advanced of what they are using Post-Empire in addition to some new advancements (Quantum armor of the Sun Crusher)

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Remember when Luke asks' date=' Obi-wan tells him that he met his father when he was a fighter pilot already, and no I don't buy into the Obi-wan was lying bit... .[/quote']I though he just said he was a pilot - and the loophole being that Anakin being a pod-racer was that he was technically a pilot.
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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I though he just said he was a pilot - and the loophole being that Anakin being a pod-racer was that he was technically a pilot.

 

I see that specific quote (emphasis mine):

Luke: Ben! Why didn't you tell me? You told me that Darth Vader betrayed and murdered my father.

Obi-Wan: Your father... was seduced by the Dark Side of the Force. He ceased to be Anakin Skywalker and "became" Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your father was destroyed. So what I told you was true... from a certain point of view.

Luke: A certain point of view?

Obi-Wan: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. Anakin was a good friend. When I first met him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong.

Luke: There is still good in him.

Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. His mind is twisted and evil.

 

Referenced the first movie (emphasis also mine):

Luke: No, my father didn't fight in the Clone Wars. He was a navigator on a spice freighter.

Obi-Wan: That's what your uncle told you. He didn't hold with your father's ideals; he felt he should've stayed here and not gotten involved.

Luke: You fought in the Clone Wars?

Obi-Wan: Yes. I was once a Jedi knight, the same as your father.

Luke: I wish I'd known him.

Obi-Wan: He was the best star pilot in the galaxy, and a cunning warrior. I understand that you've become quite a good pilot yourself.

[sorrowfully]

Obi-Wan: And he was a good friend.

 

It seems to suggest that Owen Knew Anakin before he fought in the Clone War (Beru also suggests that she knows Anakin well, because she tells Owen at one point (in the ten lines they have before they die, lol) that "Luke has a lot of his father in him"*), and also suggests that he was older when Obi-wan met... I will cede that it's wrapped in a bit of double talk, but I still don't agree with the prequel on him being a kid. But this does digress from the point of the thread... and I'll admit is mainly my take on things, and most definitely not cannon.

 

*

Aunt Beru: Where are you going?

Luke: Looks like I'm going nowhere... I'm gonna finish cleaning those 'droids.

Aunt Beru: [after Luke leaves] Owen, he can't stay here forever, most of his friends have gone. It means so much to him.

Uncle Owen: Well, I'll make it up to him next year, I promise.

Aunt Beru: Luke's just not a farmer, Owen. He has too much of his father in him.

Uncle Owen: That's what I'm afraid of.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I have a similar issue with Middle-Earth, where there seems to be little to no technological, cultural or social progress over thousands of years. I try to turn off that part of my brain.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Maybe a reason for technological "stagnation" is that there really isn't a need to develop the latest, hottest way to, say, kill someone. Sure, one can always develop a newer, deadlier blaster, but why? If the tried-and-true model does just as good a job--and does it cheaper, with well-established performance characteristics--then there's really no need to "upgrade".

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Maybe a reason for technological "stagnation" is that there really isn't a need to develop the latest' date=' hottest way to, say, kill someone. Sure, one can always develop a newer, deadlier blaster, but why? If the tried-and-true model does just as good a job--and does it cheaper, with well-established performance characteristics--then there's really no need to "upgrade".[/quote']

 

Saying that about computers doesn't seem to work. And humans, being who they are, are always looking for better ways to kill each other. That's why we're not still going to war with broadswords, lances and longbows.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

To say nothing of the basic human (possibly sophont) tendency of "tweaking out" any/all tech we already have. Not just weapons, but everything.

 

I mean, Han Solo openly refers to the "special modifications" he has made to the Millennium Falcon. I am pretty dern certain he is not unique in the Galaxy for this. Then there are the Podracers in 'Phantom Menace', which all seem to be highly modified and individualized.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Saying that about computers doesn't seem to work. And humans' date=' being who they are, are always looking for better ways to kill each other. That's why we're not still going to war with broadswords, lances and longbows.[/quote']

 

Computers are not a mature technology. But you know, it'll probably be centuries before we give up on revolvers.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Boy I wish people would stop saying that as if it meant something.

 

It does, though.

 

Travel times are all over the place, you've got knight/princess/evil lord tropes up the wazoo, there's sound in space, and oh so many "logical" things that could have been advanced or created given the immense technological infrastructure, and yet asides from the set pieces (a laser sword instead of a broadsword, and an X-Wing instead of a horse) it's fantasy in every sense of the word.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

It does, though.

 

Travel times are all over the place, you've got knight/princess/evil lord tropes up the wazoo, there's sound in space, and oh so many "logical" things that could have been advanced or created given the immense technological infrastructure, and yet asides from the set pieces (a laser sword instead of a broadsword, and an X-Wing instead of a horse) it's fantasy in every sense of the word.

 

Even assuming that's true...so what? When I say it doesn't mean anything I don't just mean that that the line between fantasy and science fiction is impossible to draw. I also mean that whether something is fantasy or science fiction doesn't matter. Fantasy is no more a license to have inconsistent travel times than science fiction is. In fact it's less of one since fantasy characters are much more likely to be limited to real locomotion technologies like horsies, but science fiction characters can travel through hyperspace where the topology may bear no relationship at all to the real space distances and you could end up arriving before you left. Star Wars has sound in space not because it's a fantasy universe but for the same reason Star Trek does and modern day shows have bullet ricochet sounds that totally don't exist in real life. And that technology has stagnated or backslid over 2000 years has implications no matter whether it's a science fiction or fantasy universe. Science fiction does not mean "makes sense" and fantasy doesn't mean "doesn't make sense".

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Except that we are talking about a milieu that is substantially bigger than any medieval-esque village. And there are fantasy backgrounds that take progress and technological change into account' date=' anyhow[/b'].

 

I agree, but, at the same time, if you broaden a term's scope too much it starts to lose it's very definition.

 

I suppose a more accurate term would be "storybook fantasy".

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

` - about frag grenades vs. Jedi: We have seen how good/bad that worked in the trailer. Telekinesis is not to be underestimated as defense. Also' date=' they know what you are about to do, sometimes before you know it.[/quote']

 

Besides, Magneto already taught us how you deal with grenade-wielding opponents in X-Men 2. You use your magnetic powers/telekinesis/whatever to pull the pins on the grenades they're still wearing on their bodies....

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Besides' date=' Magneto already taught us how you deal with grenade-wielding opponents in X-Men 2. You use your magnetic powers/telekinesis/whatever to pull the pins on the grenades they're still wearing on their bodies....[/quote']

 

Star Wars grenades don't have pins. You twist the tops to arm them I think.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I though he just said he was a pilot - and the loophole being that Anakin being a pod-racer was that he was technically a pilot.

Well, he was a Star Pilot and a great pilot before he became even a Jedi aprentice. You remember that whole battle for naboo, where he destroyed the Trade Federation ship in a Starfighter?

Heck, they wanted him to still fit to what was said about him in EP 4-6, so they made it possible. They needed him to be a child, so they made him a child with badass force connection. So he blowing up a Starship at age 6 made some wierd sense.

 

Boy I wish people would stop saying that as if it meant something.

 

It does, though.

 

Travel times are all over the place, you've got knight/princess/evil lord tropes up the wazoo, there's sound in space, and oh so many "logical" things that could have been advanced or created given the immense technological infrastructure, and yet asides from the set pieces (a laser sword instead of a broadsword, and an X-Wing instead of a horse) it's fantasy in every sense of the word.

 

Except that we are talking about a milieu that is substantially bigger than any medieval-esque village. And there are fantasy backgrounds that take progress and technological change into account' date=' anyhow.[/quote']

There is a simple logic: When the plot demands a plot device from [highly advanced but lost civilisation], then there is such a plot device and there was [highly advanced but lost civilisation].

In fantasy such devices are found in "lost cities", in SW they are found on "lost planets". There is always the room for ancient technollogy/magic or ancient technological/magical devices.

And frankly, it makes no difference in the powers source is tech or magic: In either chase it is not reproduceable and not counterable with current technology/magic. It requires heroic actions to stop it's activation or destroy it before it destorys the "homecountry/homeplantet of the heroes" or even the "entire planet/galaxy".

 

Star Wars grenades don't have pins. You twist the tops to arm them I think.

Different grenades, different way to arm them. And remember, that he always can throw it back with TK. No need for a "Magneto Maneuver" here.

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