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Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?


Michael Hopcroft

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

In the trailer, a Jedi was able to stop a lightsaber by grabbing the tip and using her force powers as a shield to protect it. It isn't the ideal solution -- usually you parry a lightsaber with another lightsaber (but hers had been broken in the combat).

 

Which brings me back to the central problems that where there are many Jedi in the setting nobody will want to play anything else. The makers of the MMO are trying to give every class cool things to do, but nothing beats Jedi -- especially if they are nigh-invulnerable to everything that can be done by any other "class".

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I'm pretty sure she was using a variation on the "Absorb/Dissipate energy" ability that permeates non-cannon Jedi power sets.

 

I'm pretty sure the "Absorb/Dissipate energy" ability is based on Vader "catching" Han's blaster bolts in Empire, so it's sourced in Cannon. I've seen other sources saying that he has some sort of Sith power glove that was made to do that, however I think that's less cannon than Vader using the force to somehow negate the damage from Han's shots.

 

As a side, I also think that the same scene shows us (or is modeled to show us) just how useful a high "fast-draw" type skill (assuming, probably rightfully so- as Han is a smuggler, he has a fast draw skill at all= Again... Han Shot first! ;) ) is fairly useless against a Jedi Strong with the Force.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I'm pretty sure the "Absorb/Dissipate energy" ability is based on Vader "catching" Han's blaster bolts in Empire' date=' so it's sourced in Cannon. I've seen other sources saying that he has some sort of Sith power glove that was made to do that, however I think that's less cannon than Vader using the force to somehow negate the damage from Han's shots.[/quote']

 

Agreed. I've had that exact argument with a friend all the way back in grade school. I argued that Vader probably used The Force to help deflect Han's blaster bolts where my friend said that it was Vader's armored glove.

 

There is also another Canonical scene that is a very obvious use of Absorb/Dissipate energy. When Yoda absorbs Dooku's Sith Lightning with naught but his little green palm. So I personally don't have a problem with abilities like these being shown with a bit more flair in non-cannon material.

 

As a side, I also think that the same scene shows us (or is modeled to show us) just how useful a high "fast-draw" type skill (assuming, probably rightfully so- as Han is a smuggler, he has a fast draw skill at all= Again... Han Shot first! ;) ) is fairly useless against a Jedi Strong with the Force.

 

Well, Vader is technically the most powerful Jedi/Sith that ever lived (or at least he would have been had he been allowed to grow in The Force naturally) so Fast-drawing against Lord Vader is kind of a Worst-case-scenario. Against a run of the mill Jedi it might be more successful. But probably not.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I'm pretty sure the "Absorb/Dissipate energy" ability is based on Vader "catching" Han's blaster bolts in Empire' date=' so it's sourced in Cannon.[/quote']

That's how it is described in the Expanded Universe books too. And afaik how it is done in Star Wars d6 Baserules.

 

In the trailer' date=' a Jedi was able to stop a lightsaber by grabbing the tip and using her force powers as a shield to protect it. It isn't the ideal solution -- usually you parry a lightsaber with another lightsaber (but hers had been broken in the combat).[/quote']

It was also obvious that sooner or later her absorption would have failed.

I think the entire point was to show that one Sith is to Strong even for a single Jedi and that even they need help from "normals" to beat them.

 

Which brings me back to the central problems that where there are many Jedi in the setting nobody will want to play anything else. The makers of the MMO are trying to give every class cool things to do' date=' but nothing beats Jedi -- especially if they are nigh-invulnerable to everything that can be done by any other "class".[/quote']

What is show in the trailer and what can you practically do in the Game are two different pair of shoes. There is no evidence that they will be immune to everybody powers. Not egenerally, and especially not all at once.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

One area of technology you don't see much of in the Star Wars galaxy is biotech. Other than cloning stormtroopers and the bacta tanks for major healing, you don't see bioweapons or any other major use of biotech.

 

And while people are talking about Jedi, the Jedi Council made a serious mistake by forbidding romantic relationships. If you accept the idea of midichlorians (which sucked a lot of the mystique from Force users for me), then a Jedi breeding program would seem wise for expanding their numbers and increasing the power of their members over time.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

One area of technology you don't see much of in the Star Wars galaxy is biotech. Other than cloning stormtroopers and the bacta tanks for major healing' date=' you don't see bioweapons or any other major use of biotech.[/quote']

On the contrary:

There are several instances of Plot device Bioweapons, both in the expanded unsiverse and the Clone Wars Cartoon.

Also, there are artificial limbs so cyberntic is far developed.

 

And while people are talking about Jedi' date=' the Jedi Council made a serious mistake by forbidding romantic relationships. If you accept the idea of midichlorians (which sucked a lot of the mystique from Force users for me), then a Jedi breeding program would seem wise for expanding their numbers and increasing the power of their members over time.[/quote']

There are two simple problems with that:

a) Love leads to fear, fear to anger, anger to the dark side. The Dark Side "call" is similar to Demons in Fanatsy. Give it in once and you may never leave it again.

B) Quest for power always leads to the dark side

 

Jedis are walking the very narrow way here.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Maybe that's what midochlorians really are: the remains of prior Jedi cultures reduced to atavistic organelles from perfecting the Force.

 

If that was the end result, I would attempt to avoid it, too.

 

Could Yoda be some kind of human/midichlorian missing link? Is the Jedi council wary of breeding super-Jedi from exposure to these little troglodytic space-goblins?

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Is the Jedi council wary of breeding super-Jedi from exposure to these little troglodytic space-goblins?

Nope, I simply think they do not want power. They even have to avoid wanting power. Even if they see the nessesarity, there is still the problem of emotional attachment(Love->Fear->Dark Side).

Maybe even Jedi and thier Jedi parrents are force-linked, making the entire "you must not know your parrents" thing impossible and makes both side more succeptible for the dark side (again Love->Fear->Dark Side).

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I also have to wonder, if they know that they'll be up against Jedi, why don't they bring some sort of shotgun or flechette gun.

 

Actually, the ideal anti-jedi weapon would be a fragmentation round, either proximity fused, or set to explode when it reaches the target range. Also include a sensor that can detect when the casing is cut and detonate then. Something like this could be built with early 21st century technology, so it should be EASY in the Star Wars 'verse (indeed, we already HAVE similar weapons). It would also have general combat utility, so you wouldn't be forcing someone to lug around a Jedi-specific weapon.

 

Thing is, you use that, and you are begging to have said grenade TKd up your tender parts

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

There are two simple problems with that:

a) Love leads to fear, fear to anger, anger to the dark side. The Dark Side "call" is similar to Demons in Fanatsy. Give it in once and you may never leave it again.

B) Quest for power always leads to the dark side

 

Jedis are walking the very narrow way here.

 

The notion that love and romance are horrible things that should be avoided at all costs by a Jedi is a repellant idea to me. If even positive emotions like love can lead to a Dark Side fall, I'm surprised that there aren't drugs or telepathic techniques the Jedi could have developed over their thousands of years of history. The ultimate Jedi would be like a Vulcan who had purged themselves of all emotions.

 

The prequel trilogy showed that forbidding love led to the worst possible outcome for the Jedi. If Anakin hadn't felt the need to keep his love hidden, would he have fallen to the Dark Side?

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

The notion that love and romance are horrible things that should be avoided at all costs by a Jedi is a repellant idea to me. If even positive emotions like love can lead to a Dark Side fall' date=' I'm surprised that there aren't drugs or telepathic techniques the Jedi could have developed over their thousands of years of history. The ultimate Jedi would be like a Vulcan who had purged themselves of all emotions.[/quote']

I guess they tried. But my best bet is that "the will of the force", works like intuition. So in order to completely rid yourself of emotion, you had to rid yourself of using the force too...

 

The prequel trilogy showed that forbidding love led to the worst possible outcome for the Jedi. If Anakin hadn't felt the need to keep his love hidden' date=' would he have fallen to the Dark Side?[/quote']

Not hiding his love drove him there. Fear of losing her lead to frustration and anger. That anger lead him to the dark side. So to 100% percent his love drove him to the dark side.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

I read the book for 'Revenge of the Sith'. In it, the writer expanded on what was going on in Anakin's head. He wasn't lost to the dark side because of his love for Padme, but because of his fear of losing her as he lost his mother, and his fear of his own mortality.

What would eventually save him from the dark side was the (Paternal) love for his own son.

The reason why the Force lead him to do this was because the Jedi were causing stagnation, while the Sith were causeing destruction. The Force could not evolve and grow in this enviorment. This is what lead the force to blind the Jedi's precognition/clairvoyance ("The shroud of the dark side").

All of the above is if you take the prequal novelizations as canon.

If you take the 'expanded universe' as canon (I don't), then you can add that Luke's new Jedi could use the Force in ways neither the Sith nor old Jedi could manage, by taking a more balanced (almost Taoist) way of looking at it.

 

(Yoda was incompetent. That's all I can say. Ever notice that every piece of advice he gives Luke is wrong?)

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

The notion that love and romance are horrible things that should be avoided at all costs by a Jedi is a repellant idea to me. If even positive emotions like love can lead to a Dark Side fall, I'm surprised that there aren't drugs or telepathic techniques the Jedi could have developed over their thousands of years of history. The ultimate Jedi would be like a Vulcan who had purged themselves of all emotions.

 

The prequel trilogy showed that forbidding love led to the worst possible outcome for the Jedi. If Anakin hadn't felt the need to keep his love hidden, would he have fallen to the Dark Side?

In the expanded universe, the stand was moderated, so that Jedi's learn to cope with the dangers. Luke marries and has a son. When she got killed, he went very dark, but managed to recover.
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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

In the expanded universe' date=' the stand was moderated, so that Jedi's learn to cope with the dangers. Luke marries and has a son. When she got killed, he went very dark, but managed to recover.[/quote']

As I heard he went Dark before that, in order to stop a "Reborn Palpatine".

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Not hiding his love drove him there. Fear of losing her lead to frustration and anger. That anger lead him to the dark side. So to 100% percent his love drove him to the dark side.

Part of that is because he had to keep it hidden and had no one to talk to about the relationship and his fears.

 

In some of the Old Republic comics the Jedi were still in contact with their families and some even raised children. So the policy of "no marriage" is one that was introduced over the time between the Old Republic and the rise of the Empire.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Part of that is because he had to keep it hidden and had no one to talk to about the relationship and his fears.

 

In some of the Old Republic comics the Jedi were still in contact with their families and some even raised children. So the policy of "no marriage" is one that was introduced over the time between the Old Republic and the rise of the Empire.

 

Yes. The general consensus is that it was adopted like the Sith deciding in theory to restrict their membership to a single master and apprentice in response to problems that cropped up during the Old Republic era. Also a written work (novelisation of the last movie) suggests that it was symptomatic of the lack of flexibility that led to the fall of the Jedi

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Yes. The general consensus is that it was adopted like the Sith deciding in theory to restrict their membership to a single master and apprentice in response to problems that cropped up during the Old Republic era. Also a written work (novelisation of the last movie) suggests that it was symptomatic of the lack of flexibility that led to the fall of the Jedi

Actually in think the entire war between Jedi and Sith, good and dark side, is an eternal struggle. Neither side will ever archieve total victory. They will clash again, eventually. It may be thousands of years until the next great conflict but even the results of the original series, this "balance to the force", won't last for ever.

As the force is a expression of live itself, the wars of thsoe wielding the forces are just an eternal cycle of development and destruction - the circle of live.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

To ignore all the namby pamby love talk you bunch of softies are tossing around, I will get back to the subject at hand ;)

 

My friends discussed this a bit when we saw the prequels. The tech of the Old Republic is far more advanced than in the last days of the Empire - the shielded battle droids as a prime example, the "less clunky" tanks and ships, etc.

 

My thoughts would simply be that, under the draconian rule of the Empire, and after the devastation of the clone wars, a lot of old tech was lost - as per the fantasy explanation earlier in the thread.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

My thoughts would simply be that' date=' under the draconian rule of the Empire, and after the devastation of the clone wars, a lot of old tech was lost - as per the fantasy explanation earlier in the thread.[/quote']

Maybe, the Clone Wars aren't even finished after EP 3:

Some of the expanded universe speak about that clones, especially the later, fast cloned ones (1 Year), were mentally instable. That the lost it and attacked the young Empire. In the end, a army of normal People had to defeat them - the Storm Troopers were born.

This later conflict, in addition to the damage already done in te first part, could indeed led to technology beign lost.

 

On the other hand there are sources claiming that in the "decade of the clone war" shiptechnology developed further than in the "in the yearhundreds before".

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

This thread just reminded me of Ozzy Osbourne. He was one of the 'lucky' few to go see a pre-showing of Episode One, before the public, at Lucas' Skywalker Ranch.

 

After seeing the movie, everybody but Ozzy was kissing butt shamelessly with comments like, "Best SFX ever!... roller-coaster ride... the movie I've been waiting to see my whole life," and crap like that.

 

Then they ask Ozzy, and he's like, "Well, if the movie is set in the past, why are all the spaceships more futuristic?"

 

It was so The Emperor's New Clothes.

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Re: Star Wars: Technological Stagnation?

 

Then they ask Ozzy' date=' and he's like, "Well, if the movie is set in the past, why are all the spaceships more futuristic?"[/quote']

Perhaps, they aren't?

We can't forget that there is a massive difference in SFX-technologies between EP 4-6 and EP 1-3. And the way people viewed "Space battles" back then and today. And they had a lot less of a Budget back then.

You can see equally extreme examples when you compare the short Wolf359 Scene from the beginning of Star Trek: DS 9 with the big battles in Season 4 and 5. And that was only after 3 Years.

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