Magic systems based on science?

[mhd]

Currently prepping my next campaign (using either HERO, to which I'm pretty new apart from an old bout with 4E Champions, or the other generic point-based system.). I'm trying to generally establish the usual fantasy tropes based on a post-apocalyptic setting (way, way back, i.e. no electronical/mechanical stuff lying about). Dwarves and elves based on ancient bio-engineering, for example.

 

And of course, magic that literally is sufficiently advanced technology. Now, I don't want to simply exchange lightning bolts for laser pistols, if I can avoid artifacts most of the time this would be great. And no lackluster "the apocalypse created a rift between dimensions, voila, magic!" copout.

 

Right now I'm thinking about one branch of magic that is basically people manipulating the weather control system. This, of course, was highly advanced so local micro-climates are definitely possible without interrupting the whole world. Nevertheless, the wizards are on their towers for a reason: They have to guard their region, as neighboring mages are likely to send bad weather their way.

 

Another possibility would be manipulating the broadcast power and defense grid (energy explosions, force fields etc.) or some kind of nano-goo (whether that's omnipresent or wizards have to bring their own "pixie dust").

 

Now mechanically I don't see a big problem. Never mind the justification, you have your usual power frameworks with foci, incantations etc. I'm here looking for those justifications and neat examples.

 

One "problem" that is common to most of these magic subsystems is the initial perk that qualifies someone to be a mage. On the lower end, I could imagine simple knowledge of the "magic language" would be sufficient, so once you learn how to shout "WCS: 35.4 67.8 MAX SURGE EXEC." you'll be a wizardly bolt slinger. But maybe a rarer prerequisite would be fine: There has to be some kind of way to a) perceive some magical data, and connect to the system. Maybe some genetic engineering that allowed the descendants of former overseer colonists is still within the population. Not quite sure what that would be, barring wishy-washy super-science.

 

And yes, of course, a wizard's staff that is a comms device. But that is almost a bit too obvious. Wizards hoarding a secret formula to make gems/glass to observe obscure "sky-writing" or some way to deduce coordinates would be more up my alley.

 

So, anyone got some ideas? Or some neat stuff from other RPGs, novels, animes etc. that one could "borrow"?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

The Magic Goes Away by Larry Niven has a very scientific approach to the workings of 'magic'.

[Lucius]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Would you consider psionics to be a "cop out?"

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders what would be a cop in

[mhd]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

I really don't see a big difference between psionics, magic and being bitten by a radioactive spider (i.e. comic book super powers).

 

I'm not going to go absolutely hard science, but I can't imagine believable biological modifications that would be sufficiently magic-like. So the power basically has to come from an external source, which is controlled by a few select people. Call it divine magic where the "gods" are the computers. (Note: No, not literally. Don't want to go all Star Trek on the campaign)

 

Haven't decided yet whether it's a planet, ringworld, Dyson sphere etc.. But when it was created, it had some very powerful control mechanisms installed, and even though everything went kablooey on the planet quite a while ago, the systems are still there. I don't want to open the can of worms that is transporters and replicators, but otherwise, high sci-fi is out there.

 

Just need a good way for wizards to check into that matrix, and more variation of spells (i.e. more planetary systems and/or neat ways to use them for your own gain).

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

My thought on magic in a scientific setting is that the magic was there all along; we just forgot about it, and stopped working it, relegating those who continued its practice to the social status of "ignorant, superstitious rubes."

 

But there can be magic in the more traditional sense (meaning long magical rituals with subtle effects) that requires an understanding of science. For example, a curse could be laid that alters the victim's DNA to cause a genetic disease such as hemophilia, color-blindness, or muscular dystrophy -- the caster's control over the results of the curse would depend on his knowledge and understanding of genetics.

 

If you like enchanted items, technological items could have enchantments. For example, a laser pistol could be enchanted to hit its intended target more readily, punch straight through metal armor, return to its owner's hand on command (in event of a disarming), and/or cause any undead creatures it hits to explode.

 

On a somewhat different angle, technological approaches could be developed to deal with magical threats. Armies could regularly have their soldiers carry a clip of silver-laced bullets to deal with werewolves, and distribute gas grenades heavily loaded with garlic powder in case of vampires.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Ever see the classic science-fiction film Forbidden Planet? For anyone who hasn't and doesn't want it spoiled, I'll use Spoiler tags:

 

 

An advanced alien race called the Krell developed a machine that could project solid-seeming constructs of energy, controlled purely by the mind. The Krell built a system that would allow everyone on the planet to utilize this machine, freeing their civilization from the need to use most tools. However, the first time the Krell population slept after the machine was activated, their uncontrolled subconscious thoughts manifested, leading to an orgy of madness and destruction that wiped out their entire race.

 

Centuries later a human space exploration party landed on this planet. One of their scientists, a man named Morpheus ( ), accidentally exposed himself to a Krell device which enhanced his intellect, but also allowed his subconscious to tap the Krell machine, with disasterous results for the rest of his crew. Morpheus himself remained unaware of his responsibility for this disaster, and the nature of the Krell machine, for many years.

 

 

Does this give you any ideas?

[Steve]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

A world that seems like a fantasy world yet isn't sounds like an idea presented in the anime series "Scrapped Princess."

 

I think the way spellcasters worked is that they needed the right genetic markers to tap into the computer network and produce magical effects. Wikipedia can give you a lot more on the world background, and it might spur additional ideas for how you want to set up your world's magic system.

[StGrimblefig]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Here's a thought: The super-tech is not in the people, but in the systems. For example, the weather control system has, as its main user interface component, a "mind reading technology." Now this system is programmed to prevent abuse, so it only recognizes certain people as being authorized to access it, and a specific set of commands (i.e. ceremony, or ritual) to add users to its authorization list. This allows the "Weather Wizards Cabal" to control who gets to toss lightning around, even if someone else learns (or thinks they have learned) the command words.

 

This same technology could be commonly used in other "magical" systems, as well.

[Lucius]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Are you familiar with the premise of Metamorphosis Alpha?

 

An enormous "generation ship" with several decks each big enough to contain a weather system and an ecosystem. There is a forest deck, a sea with some islands deck, even a desert deck, etc. The intention was to preserve samples of Earth's flora and fauna during a journey through space that would take a few generations at least; when the ship reaches its destination, the target planet would be colonized.

 

In the game, there was a disaster that kept the ship from reaching its destination and more importantly, killed off the crew who knew how to run the ship. The colonists eventually revert to more primitive state of culture, forgetting the nature of the world they live in.

 

For further strangeness, you can use the same disaster Metamorphosis Alpha did - a field of "strange radiation" that not only inflicts quirky malfunctions on machinery but causes bizarre mutations not only in Humans but in other animals and in plants. Of course, you might find this too much like "bitten by a radioactive spider" and not use that idea.

 

All the old machinery, including robots, computers, weapons, environmental systems, etc. is still around, and anyone who can figure out how to use some of it (which doesn't even have to mean understanding how it works) could become a wizard.

 

If mutation is too "unscientific" for you, there's still genetic engineering - some of the colonists could be adapted to specific environments. Merfolk for example or winged people (who could confirm that the sky really is a ceiling.)

 

Artificially intelligent computers could be the world's "spirits" or "Gods." A deranged computer might be convinced it IS a Deity. A master control or general information computer might act as an oracle, and may even be able to explain the nature of the world, how it really works, where we all came from and where we were supposed to be going - in the extremely unlikely event that anyone can actually figure out the right questions to ask!

 

 

And finally, what if the ship actually reaches its destination and maybe even lands there?

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary: Alpha to Omega

[mhd]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

A world that seems like a fantasy world yet isn't sounds like an idea presented in the anime series "Scrapped Princess."

 

I asked a similar question at rpg.net a while ago and I believe it was mentioned. Also "Genesis Survivor Gaiarth", after which I've decided to read a few books first before going back to anime (it had a character called "Queen Ayatollah", 'nuff said).

 

And yes, genetic imprinting seems a popular choice. Carriers of the "sysop" genetic sequence. Then the computer just listens (audio-visual or "mind-reading", depending on how close to 11 my super-science is) to their commands. I would like a bit more flavor than that, but apart from people gengineered to detect a certain visual wavelength that helps in their endeavors, I couldn't come up with a lot.

[RexMundi]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Jack Chalker's Well World series has an interesting take on Magic that I use for my own Star Hero set up.

 

~Rex

[Gent]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

I once came up with a setting where magic was made possible by a machine that altered the laws of physics in a localized area. I'm not sure how that was supposed to make magic possible, but if it meddled with quantum entanglement so that a human brain could manipulate matter without any contact, that would work. However, the origin and function of this machine would likely require intense handwaving.

[csyphrett]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Wizards can have implants to run machines that do whatever spell is supposed to operate.

 

Psi powers from radiation/ genetic manipulation/environment can substitute for magic like the warlock in spite of himself. Psi sensitive fungus is also mentioned in that series.

 

Several series that I have read or heard about use the evironment coming to life thanks to the person in it thinking too hard.

 

M. Rex (and Generator Rex I think) had nanomachines that could be used to a lot of super power/magic type things

CES

[RexMundi]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Come to think of it, The Blood Dawn RPG uses the tech approach to it's "witches and wizards".....

 

~Rex

[Lucius]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

I asked a similar question at rpg.net a while ago and I believe it was mentioned. Also "Genesis Survivor Gaiarth", after which I've decided to read a few books first before going back to anime (it had a character called "Queen Ayatollah", 'nuff said).

 

And yes, genetic imprinting seems a popular choice. Carriers of the "sysop" genetic sequence. Then the computer just listens (audio-visual or "mind-reading", depending on how close to 11 my super-science is) to their commands. I would like a bit more flavor than that, but apart from people gengineered to detect a certain visual wavelength that helps in their endeavors, I couldn't come up with a lot.

 

Let me see if I understand you.

 

You want a certain class of people, "magicians," who are able to manifest powers that other people do not.

 

So if there are, for example, machines that control climate and can even create immediate local effects like a fogbank or lightning bolt, it is not enough if they respond to any individual's expressed wish, say, if saying a certain short phrase anyone can memorize can elicit a given phenomenon. Nor is it acceptible if such machines exist but they are essentially automatic and not controlled by anyone. It should be possible for some people to deliberately manifest certain effects, but not possible for just anyone to easily do so?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Manifesting a palindromedary

[sobran]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

An example that springs to mind:

 

In some villages there are weather casters, capable of controlling weather not only in their own region, but wherever they go. Their abilities are more reliable in their own region however--there appears to be areas of "dead magic" that some people refer to as "Imp Zones" throughout the world. The reason for that isn't understood, nor is the name.

 

The ability to control the weather is passed down from mother to daughter or father to son and is embodied in the Sol Bracelet. It is suspected that these bracelets contain a connection to the Earth as well as the "Sols" of ancestor weathercasters, an idea given more credence by the fact that weathercasters appear to be getting more powerful over time.

 

The political position of a weathercaster varies throughout the world. In some regions they are powerful warlords, ruling through power and fear. In others they are respected wisemen, shamans, or witches, whose advice is heeded but seldom wield power on their own. Regardless, people are afraid to kill them, knowing that their power cannot be stolen. Only a decendant may inherit the Sol Bracelet, as the Sols know their own.

 

The science:

 

There are weather control systems all over the world. Certain individuals were given bracelets with encrypted radio links to the system to help oversee the system. Each bracelet was genetically encoded to only work with the individual the bracelet was given to. After the apocalypse, the bracelets did nothing as the individuals given this responsibility died off.

 

Over the next few centuries, the safeguards in the system began to fail. Today, simply being descended from the correct individual and of the correct gender is enough to fool the system into taking commands from the bracelet. In addition, safety mechanisms have begun to fail as well. Systems never intended to be controlled are now available, such as commanding lightning to strike, provided one knows the arcane language of "coordinates". In time, who knows what horrors will be unlocked by the failing safeties?

[mhd]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Let me see if I understand you.

 

You want a certain class of people, "magicians," who are able to manifest powers that other people do not.

 

That's correct. I'm more of a fan of the "gift" approach to wizardry than simple academic study, whether we're talking about "normal" magic or this Magus Ex Machina approach. It can be done with castes (not that many knights, either), but that wouldn't prevent the typical adventurer from branching out into magic sooner or later.

 

Especially if the world is low-magic.

 

So if there are' date=' for example, machines that control climate and can even create immediate local effects like a fogbank or lightning bolt, it is not enough if they respond to any individual's expressed wish, say, if saying a certain short phrase anyone can memorize can elicit a given phenomenon. Nor is it acceptible if such machines exist but they are essentially automatic and not controlled by anyone. It should be possible for some people to deliberately manifest certain effects, but not possible for just anyone to easily do so?[/quote']

 

Yes, those are my current design limits. Never mind the background, I want to run a low fantasy campaign. Which (in my experience) works better with a more limited approach to magic. The PC wizards have to pay. No late entries. No "multi-classing into magic-user". Bonus points if wizards are weird.

 

The latter could be the result of weird, long studies (and being the only one with an education), and/or the side-effects of the genetic modifications that make you able to create your spell effects (maybe wizards "see the numbers", and thus are a bit OCD or borderline autistic).

 

Some things I've been considering:

 

• Communication is just learning an arcane programming language, but feeding the paramters is hard. Your genemod is a 3D spatial sense that allows you to quickly determine coordinates, distances etc.
  
• Communication is done by the genemod, you have to figure out the coordinates yourself. Around your wizard's tower, you're doing swell. Away from it, you have to mess around with the stars, primitive sextants etc.
  
• Instead of a genemod, you've got a crystalline communication device implanted as a third eye. They're rare, so quite often you only get it through the death of your master.
  
• Your device/mod creates a coordinate system with you as the center. To establish this and to start the communication, you require quite some energy. You can't generate this, but you're the receptacle for it. So you have to stand in the proper place where the "ley lines" (broadcast power lines) are. Better if they converge. The power grid isn't that good anymore (low/no mana areas)
  
• This time no weather control. Broadcast power, "ley lines", but your spells are done by crystalline devices that focus and redirect the power. Most of them are from old devices that haven't survived the ages. There's electrical backlash. Wizards are descendents of old energy workers and have a high electrical resistance (not in the Ohm sense), and a general "feeling" when they're close enough to a power line to activate their lenses.
  
• For the above: There are rumors of a magical academy that actually has a method of imprinting new cyrstalline spell lenses.
  

[Steve]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

A book I would suggest reading for a science-based fantasy world is "There Will Be Dragons" by John Ringo. If I remember correctly, it is set in the 40th century and mankind has attained powers that would be seen as magic, but it is a science-fiction setting. People can alter their forms, turning into elves or unicorns if they wish. Weather is controlled by the Net, which controls most of the world. A council of sysops is in charge of the net and function like wizards in their abilities.

[mhd]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

[forget this post, thought my first one was eaten by gremlins, but it was just left open for mod approval. no need to repeat myself]

[Ryhope Wood]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

If you want to go with science that is long forgotten so users now consider it magical / divine then there is the Tech Priests from Warhammer 40K.

[Lucius]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Let me see if I understand you.

 

You want a certain class of people, "magicians," who are able to manifest powers that other people do not.

 

So if there are, for example, machines that control climate and can even create immediate local effects like a fogbank or lightning bolt, it is not enough if they respond to any individual's expressed wish, say, if saying a certain short phrase anyone can memorize can elicit a given phenomenon. Nor is it acceptible if such machines exist but they are essentially automatic and not controlled by anyone. It should be possible for some people to deliberately manifest certain effects, but not possible for just anyone to easily do so?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Manifesting a palindromedary

 

If this is what you're after, there ARE alternatives to "it's in the genes."

 

One is that it's a skill, like Engineering or Computer Programming. In fact, it could basically BE Engineering or Computer Programming. Everyone can't do it, not even everyone who meets the basic intelligence requirement, because those who already know how don't necessarily teach ever Tom, Dick and Sherry.

 

 

Another is that the system won't recognize and respond to a new "User" until someone it ALREADY recognizes as having appropriate privileges identifies the new person and grants them access. This will probably be surrounded by ceremony, but the core of it will probably involve being in the right place and saying certain verbal formula.

 

Master: "System, initiate user upgrade, user ID: Em Aitch Dee"

 

Mysterious Voice: "Confirmation code required."

 

Master: "Confirmation code: Jolt and Java Red Chicken One Seven"

 

Mysterious Voice: "Define new status User ID Em Aitch Dee"

 

Master: "User ID Em Aitch Dee status Junior Sysop"

 

Mysterious Voice: "User ID Em Aitch Dee voice confirm new status"

 

Apprentice (reading scroll): "I am Em Aitch Dee. I am a Junior Sysop"

 

Mysterious Voice: "Voice print confirmed. New status active."

 

Master: "No longer are you an apprentice; now you are a journeyman wizard in your own right, known to the spirits forever as Em Aitch Dee!"

 

Former Apprentice: "Thank you master. I know I have much to learn and I won't disappoint you."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Master of the Palindromedary

[Mister E]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Initiating an initiation? How appropriate.

[mhd]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Master: "System, initiate user upgrade, user ID: Em Aitch Dee"

 

Mysterious Voice: "Confirmation code required."

 

Master: "Confirmation code: Jolt and Java Red Chicken One Seven"

 

Mysterious Voice: "Define new status User ID Em Aitch Dee"

 

Master: "User ID Em Aitch Dee status Junior Sysop"

 

Mysterious Voice: "User ID Em Aitch Dee voice confirm new status"

 

Apprentice (reading scroll): "I am Em Aitch Dee. I am a Junior Sysop"

 

Mysterious Voice: "Voice print confirmed. New status active."

 

Master: "No longer are you an apprentice; now you are a journeyman wizard in your own right, known to the spirits forever as Em Aitch Dee!"

 

Former Apprentice: "Thank you master. I know I have much to learn and I won't disappoint you."

 

Reminds me of the "Wizard's Bane" novel, where a computer programmer gets summoned into a fantasy world and develops a "magical programming language" to tame the pretty wild laws of sorcery there.

 

Features unixy stuff like "backslash cd slash grep moira exe"…

And his fairy-like familiar was called "Emac". (Nerds are allowed to groan now)

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Hmm. Perhaps using this psuedo-magic requires a brain capable of understanding computer code at an instinctive level. So all mages possess varying levels of a particular kind of computer enhanced autistic savantism.

[Mister E]

Re: Magic systems based on science?

 

Intuition is rather instinctive.