Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

[megaplayboy]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

I suppose the question is, how many points of differentiation do there need to be in order to, for example, sufficiently distinguish heroic characters? Storyteller has 10 (stat plus skill or ability). Hero 6th has 10 for INT and EGO in the normal to legendary range(5,10,15,20,25,30,35,40,45,50), but only 4 in the "normal" range(5,10,15,20). STR and PRE are more nuanced(3,5,8,10,13,15,18,20,23,25,28,30--12 for STR(8 in normal range), plus 33,35,38,40,43,45,48,50--20 for PRE(8 to 12 in normal range). DEX and CON, of course, have point-for-point distinctions--initiative and stunning-resistance, respectively--and therefore already satisfy this criteria. All of the other stats--PD,ED,SPD, REC, END, STUN, BODY, Movement--all have point-for-point distinctions and satisfy this criteria as well(although the "normal" ranges for defenses, SPD and REC are fairly narrow).

Essentially, to make the system more granular, you either need to reform how INT, EGO, STR and PRE work, such that every point spent is distinctive, or you'd need to change how "stat rolls" work, as mentioned above. But for that, you'd probably need to recost the stats.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

To pricing of DEX, I agree it should be priced as INT and PRE. However, I'm, not convinced they should be 1 point. Perhaps INT and PRE should be more expensive. I'd like to see these abilities take on a "sum of the parts" model. Buying +1 with all Skill rolls for a specific stat, and either +1 with all PER rolls, or +1d6 PRE attack and +5 PRE defense (I'd rather move that defense to EGO, but that's a different issue) or +5 Lightning Reflexes with all abilities should cost 5 points if the stats are 1:1, or 10 points if we cost them at 2 each.

 

As an example model:

 

STR stays unchanged, with Hand Attack returned to a -1/2 limitation ("STR, direct damage only", and a -1/4 limitation added for "STR, only for combat effects with a specific set of maneuvers" (this could either be a Martial Arts damage class, or a "non-martial maneuvers damage class).

 

DEX stays 2 points. +1 with all DEX rolls costs 5 points. +1 with any DEX roll, one at a time, becomes 3 points. +1 with any of a subset of related DEX rolls becomes 2 points. +1 with a single DEX based roll becomes 1 point (skills repriced accordingly). Similarly, LR gets repriced based on 5 points for +5 LR with all abilities and reduced costs for more limited choices.

 

CON stays 1 point. CON rolls can be bought up for 2 points per +1, and resistance to stunning for 3 points per +1 (should that be 1 point and 4 points given comparative utility?)

 

INT 2 points each, with +5 for INT rolls (as DEX rolls) and +5 for +1 to all PER rolls, scaling downward for more restriction.

 

EGO 1 point each, 5 points for +2 to all EGO rolls (scale down for reduced scope), and 5 for +10 PRE defense.

 

PRE 2 points each, with +5 for PRE rolls (as DEX rolls) and 5 for +1d6 PRE attacks (scale down for restricted PRE attacks)

 

Making every point count? I believe there is a scaling for damage. I'd suggest:

 

1 point - Roll d6: 1-2 is nil, 3-6 adds 1 STUN (average 0.67 stun)

2 points - 1/2d6 - 1 (average 4/3 = 0.67 per point)

3 points - 1/2d6 (average 2 = 0.67 per point

4 points - 1d6-1 (average 2 2/3 = 0.67 per point)

5 points - 1d6 (average 3.5 = 0.7/point)

 

For CHAR based rolls, add 1d6 (of a different color) to all rolls. If your three dice just fail (you needed 13- and rolled 14), the d6 needs to roll equal or less than the distance from the breakpoint to your stat to succeed (eg. you have a 20 CHAR, and the breakpoint was 18, so you succeed if that fourth die is a 1 or 2).

 

More complex/more rolls? Sure. But every point now counts for something.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

The only characteristics currently where every point does not count is Intelligence and to a lesser degree Strength. Even EGO and PRE has every point that counts when defending from Mental Attacks and PRE Attacks respectively, in the same manner that CON protects from Stunning. INT has no such mechanic, mainly being used for Perception rolls and INT based skill rolls. STR also uses each point in the calculation of lifting ability, but that's it. After that, damage adds are based on breakpoints. I don't really have much of a problem with this as I have played other games where many stats or characteristics were essentially worthless. At least in HERO they all have practical utility.

[Tech]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

In my opinion, what needs to be asked is whether or not all those extra pages are going to intimidate new players. Sure, those of us familiar with the system can easily adapt to 6th ed (I'm still using 5th ed myself) but what about someone new to the game? It doesn't matter if it makes the system "better" than 5th edition, is it going to scare off people? If more and more pages keep getting added, new players are going to see it's more like a textbook and say "forget it!" There's a point where fine-tuning the system is going to hurt it, not help it.

[brionl]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

IMO, to combat page creep, they should put more emphasis on the Basic Rulebook. And maybe change the name to Easy New York Teenybopper Starter Edition or something. How many posts have we seen on here about people confused about what exactly they need to start playing?

[Tasha]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

Well' date=' at some point, the old editions tend to wear out. That said, we went from 216 pages in 4th, to 432 in 5th, 592 in 5th revised, and around 800 in 6th. Is 6th four times better than 4th? At this rate, 7th Revised Expanded will clock in somewhere between 1000 and 1500 pages. At which point people will finally be screaming for brevity.[/quote']

 

I really think you are overestimating how the Page count will inflate. The biggest reasons that 6e is so much bigger than 5er are, Large Font size, Way way more artwork than in any previous version and also the paper is thicker (the last doesn't inflate page count, but does make the book bigger). Yes Steve could cut down on all of the extra explanation text, but that would just shift a ton of work to these boards to answer questions. It's the player's of the system's fault that 5er and 6e have such a large word count. If we weren't always trying to bend the rules in new directions (esp for powers and assoc things). Steve wouldn't have to spend so many words explaining each and every power in excruciating detail.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

I really think you are overestimating how the Page count will inflate. The biggest reasons that 6e is so much bigger than 5er are' date=' Large Font size, Way way more artwork than in any previous version and also the paper is thicker (the last doesn't inflate page count, but does make the book bigger). Yes Steve could cut down on all of the extra explanation text, but that would just shift a ton of work to these boards to answer questions. It's the player's of the system's fault that 5er and 6e have such a large word count. If we weren't always trying to bend the rules in new directions (esp for powers and assoc things). Steve wouldn't have to spend so many words explaining each and every power in excruciating detail.[/quote']

 

I'd be happy to wager regarding whether the page count for 7th edition will go up or down. My money's on "way up". I don't quite understand how a 216 page 4th edition turned into an 800 page 6th edition, based simply on the use of larger text, more artwork and more explanatory text, though. The 6E Basic rules clock in around 200 pages, which should have highlighted the issue for longtime Herophiles, but a lot of folks don't see a problem. Yet. So I'm thinking we'll just keep growing the rules until we hit a breaking point. Which, imo, will probably happen around about the time 7th "ER" comes out(in, oh, 2019 or so).

[Escafarc]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

I get the feeling I'm in the minority but I don't have a problem with the page count of 6E and if 7E has more bring it on. The clearer the explanations and more examples the better. Now please allow me time to get my flame-retardant skivvies.

[Tasha]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

I'd be happy to wager regarding whether the page count for 7th edition will go up or down. My money's on "way up". I don't quite understand how a 216 page 4th edition turned into an 800 page 6th edition' date=' based simply on the use of larger text, more artwork and more explanatory text, though. The 6E Basic rules clock in around 200 pages, which should have highlighted the issue for longtime Herophiles, but a lot of folks don't see a problem. Yet. So I'm thinking we'll just keep growing the rules until we hit a breaking point. Which, imo, will probably happen around about the time 7th "ER" comes out(in, oh, 2019 or so).[/quote']

 

Well, I was talking about the differences between 6e and 5er.

 

The differences between 4th edition and 5er has to do with all of the extra explanations. 5th was concieved by the HG staff at the time as the bullet proof edition. They were looking for Steve to fix the many problems that came up in 4th edition. They were counting on the fact that Steve's previous career (ie as a Lawyer) to help him tighten up the Rules. So he turned in a HUGE manuscript that had tons of extra explanations on top of having all of the powers being better documented in what they could and couldn't do. The editor (I think was Bruce) edited the 5th ed manuscript down to more or less what was published. He did this by removing most of the explanation text. When DOJ bought Hero, they decided to publish the manuscript mostly as is to save money and to get a new version of the Rules out there ASAP. When 5th edition finally ran out of stock it was decided to publish the whole original manuscript with some minor changed. That became the HUGE document that was 5er (AKA 5th Edition Revised), same rules better explanations.

 

6th edition inflated over 5er mostly due to lots of Artwork and somewhat because of the inflated text size.

 

I think you are very wrong about 7th edition. When it is published I'll bet that the page count will remain nearly the same, or possibly shrink. The shrinkage depends on the state of the art and current style for Rulebooks. If rulebooks go back to being pretty much artless, and if printing costs go up enough that printing that much color doesn't make monetary sense. Then we might actually see a 7th edition book that is smaller than 6th ed. As for Word count, I can't see how much more Steve can say about the powers. I think if you actually look at the text differences between 6th edition and 5er you will find that in 90% of the text that 6th edition has identical text to 5er. I have found this again and again when I look up rules in both editions for people on the other boards here.

[Mister E]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

If only there was some way to bind both 5th edition & 6th edition into one single edition...

[Tasha]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

One thing that I miss from 4th edition was a document that came with the otherwise ignorable GM Screen. It was a booklet that had a list of Skills, Talents, and Powers. Expanded to include all options, but without all of the explanation text. It made creating characters very fast as then I didn't have to slog through the rules looking for that one little adder that I was looking for. Perhaps something like it would sell for 6e. Only the Names and options for all Characteristics, Skills, Talents, Perks, Powers and Complications. They would include everything in the writeup for the power ex. the rules and explanation text. so Just the Costs, Limits and Advantages. Nothing else.

 

Though I am sure that we will hear that such a product would never sell and never make enough money to justify the costs of editing 6e1 to make it a reality.

[Christopher]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

I think you are very wrong about 7th edition. When it is published I'll bet that the page count will remain nearly the same' date=' or possibly shrink.[/quote']

I don't know if I can agree here. Afaik with each edition of a game system powers/advantages are added to the core book (and moved away from suplements) so naturally the core libary will grow.

 

Steve Long noted somethign of this with Star Hero:

Most of the equipment Rules that where in the 5E version of this Suplement are now in the 6E Version of the Equipment Guide.

Somethign similar might be true with Advanced/Mass Vehicle combat and Star Hero 5E/Ultimate Vehicle 6E.

Rules in suplements shrink, as they get incorporated into the Core Books (6E1 + 6E2) and the larger the "Core Libary" (Core books + APG, Ultimate X Guides, etc....).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

I don't know that this is the case for all game systems. Some tend to publish the new edition with just the bare bones (perhaps even less than was in previous editions) to keep options many players and GM's value in subsequent supplemental releases and boost their sales. How many PHB's has 4th Ed D&D got now?

 

Hero, however, has always aimed to have the Rules be complete in the Rules volume(s), so a lot of options and new builds (those that aren't setting or genre specific) introduced in sourcebooks end up getting added to the core rules in the next edition. To me, for example, "building a martial maneuver" belongs in the core rules, and I was a bit surprised it wasn't moved into the core rules in 6e.

 

The core rules could be much slimmer if Steve saved a bunch of more complex, and less basic, rules for various supplements, forcing you to buy those supplements if you wanted to have "all the rules". The core rules could just have PD, ED and Resistant defense, for example, leaving you to buy supplements if you wanted 6e rules for damage reduction and damage negation.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

80+% of the powers, combat options and so forth that we have in 6th existed in 4th edition, and that had 214 pages of rules. If you add more artwork, maybe you get up to 250 pages. If you make the text font bigger, maybe you get up to 300. And if you add in the options, and a few random bits here and there, maybe you get up to 400 pages. So, do we need 400 pages of explanatory text? Newbies will get overwhelmed, and old schoolers have pretty much worked most of this stuff out already.

I have little doubt that, when work begins on 7th edition, 3 to 7 years from now, people will be suggesting that a bunch of stuff from the APGs and supplements be added in, and some new options provided, and that some stuff could still use further explanation and clarification. Upper limits on page count and price point for core rulebooks have to be in the 1000-1500 page and 100-150 dollar range, respectively, I'm guessing. So, once you hit that point, the only place to go from there is down--smaller and cheaper and easier to master.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

80+% of the powers' date=' combat options and so forth that we have in 6th existed in 4th edition, and that had 214 pages of rules.[/quote']

 

Without checking whether your 80% figure is or is not accurate (but it doesn't feel wrong), there were tons of arguments over interpretations in 4th Ed. Let's talk about "linked" and whether 2+ attack powers could be used together if they weren't linked. 5e added Multiple Power attacks and 6e enhanced those rules, but the designers have indicated this was intended from 1e - obviously, they weren't very clear about that!

 

If you add more artwork' date=' maybe you get up to 250 pages. If you make the text font bigger, maybe you get up to 300.[/quote']

 

Has anyone done a word count comparison (could we?) between the editions? I think that would be more relevant than a page count. It would be more interesting to get this by section - eg. how much have the vehicle rules changed, or the base rules (there's some stuff that other systems would almost certainly put in a separate supplement).

 

And if you add in the options' date=' and a few random bits here and there, maybe you get up to 400 pages. So, do we need 400 pages of explanatory text? Newbies will get overwhelmed, and old schoolers have pretty much worked most of this stuff out already. [/quote']

 

All the 5e and 6e sidebars on example powers are additions. I think they help clarify many builds. The examples and explanatory notes have been helpful to many gamers, and the ongoing growth of the FAQ (which provided, IIRC, a lot of the extras from 5e to 5er) were gamer-requested. Now, were they of broad enough interest to merit addition to the core rules (ie were they FAQ's or SLATO* questions) may be a better question. I'd be interested in hearing from gamers who started with Sidekick in 5e or the basic rules inn 6e, then bought the full core rules. Most of the additions are examples, explanations, etc. - the very things that, as you note, bumped the page count. I'm curious whether they found value, or just page inflation, in moving to the full 5e.

 

If old schoolers worked everything out, how is it that there are so many rule arguments on the Boards? They plugged the holes with their own interpretations, house rules and guidelines for the types of builds that would, or would not, be acceptable. To some extent, that's the nature of the beast in a highly flexible system. I think a lot of Hero gamers, especially rookies and rookie GM's, would find value in notes on why certain abilities have a Caution or Stop sign - ie "if I change this, what's the risk to my game".

 

Despite all those pages of options and examples, we still get threads from new gamers asking how to make their games more lethal, or more gritty, or more granular. For them, it seems the system hasn't provided enough options or, more likely, hasn't explained them well enough. For good or ill, the gaming community seems to more and more want every rule spelled out for them, rather than being required to make their own decisions. And why not? Won't the designer have more insights to the rule system?

 

* "Steve Long Answered This Once"

 

I have little doubt that' date=' when work begins on 7th edition, 3 to 7 years from now, people will be suggesting that a bunch of stuff from the APGs and supplements be added in, and some new options provided, and that some stuff could still use further explanation and clarification. Upper limits on page count and price point for core rulebooks have to be in the 1000-1500 page and 100-150 dollar range, respectively, I'm guessing. So, once you hit that point, the only place to go from there is down--smaller and cheaper and easier to master.[/quote']

 

I suspect they will - if and when we get to a 7th Edition.

 

What would you cut, specifically, to get down to your targeted length? Would it vanish, or appear in some other book later? I suspect that anything you target for removal will be challenged by other Hero gamers as being of value, and possibly of making the rules incomplete by their removal. Are you suggesting, for example, that the Hero objective of having all the rules in the "Core Rulebook" should be abandoned as impractical and making the rules excessively lengthy?

 

Perhaps your objective could be met by releasing the "Hero System Basic Rules" (much like the current Basic Rulebook, with a mandate that page count cannot increase - cut some less commonly used rules instead) with these being focused as "the primary rules of the game", removing these basic rules from the Core Rules Vol 1 and 2 and renaming this revised publication the "Advanced Rules", then offering the two in a bundle as the "Complete Basic and Advanced Rules" (which, if the 6e experience holds true, will be ignored by most game stores, which will put both books on the shelf and offer no discount for buying them together).

[djkester]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

80+% of the powers, combat options and so forth that we have in 6th existed in 4th edition, and that had 214 pages of rules. If you add more artwork, maybe you get up to 250 pages. If you make the text font bigger, maybe you get up to 300. And if you add in the options, and a few random bits here and there, maybe you get up to 400 pages. So, do we need 400 pages of explanatory text? Newbies will get overwhelmed, and old schoolers have pretty much worked most of this stuff out already.

I have little doubt that, when work begins on 7th edition, 3 to 7 years from now, people will be suggesting that a bunch of stuff from the APGs and supplements be added in, and some new options provided, and that some stuff could still use further explanation and clarification. Upper limits on page count and price point for core rulebooks have to be in the 1000-1500 page and 100-150 dollar range, respectively, I'm guessing. So, once you hit that point, the only place to go from there is down--smaller and cheaper and easier to master.

 

I am new to 6e having not played since the early 90s. I like the books. They are a great resource. So far i haven't found anything in them that i consider fluff. Unlike other game products I own. The books are great the way they are presented for me. As for overwhelm at the size. I think the basic rule book is a great solution. I own one for light reading.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

As a further thought, have a look at this thread, where a recent purchaser of the Champions genre book expresses his displeasure that he needs to buy the game rules as well. That seems like at least one gamer who wants bigger, not smaller, books, but also supports your comments in that he is concerned about the perception of volume and complexity of the system.

 

I'm not sure how it is somehow less complex to need three Player's Handbooks, a half dozen splatbooks and an online subscription to build your character, but there is certainly a perception among some gamers that this is so.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

I'd be interested in hearing from gamers who started with Sidekick in 5e or the basic rules inn 6e' date=' then bought the full core rules. Most of the additions are examples, explanations, etc. - the very things that, as you note, bumped the page count. I'm curious whether they found value, or just page inflation, in moving to the full 5e.[/quote']

 

I am new to 6e having not played since the early 90s. I like the books. They are a great resource. So far i haven't found anything in them that i consider fluff. Unlike other game products I own. The books are great the way they are presented for me. As for overwhelm at the size. I think the basic rule book is a great solution. I own one for light reading.

 

Nice timing! Would you previously have played 4th Ed (the Big Blue Book with the Perez cover or the softcover with three characters, one a Viking IIRC), or an earlier edition?

 

By the way, in all fairness, the answers to my question will be skewed in my favour. Anyone on these boards likely favours the Hero approach - those that don't play something else and are much less likely to frequent these Boards - so the answers will indicate some people find it valuable, but won't provide a reasonable poll of the gaming community as a whole. Even Hero Gamers who find 6e excessive probably aren't online looking for more comments!

[megaplayboy]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

Without checking whether your 80% figure is or is not accurate (but it doesn't feel wrong), there were tons of arguments over interpretations in 4th Ed. Let's talk about "linked" and whether 2+ attack powers could be used together if they weren't linked. 5e added Multiple Power attacks and 6e enhanced those rules, but the designers have indicated this was intended from 1e - obviously, they weren't very clear about that!

 

 

 

Has anyone done a word count comparison (could we?) between the editions? I think that would be more relevant than a page count. It would be more interesting to get this by section - eg. how much have the vehicle rules changed, or the base rules (there's some stuff that other systems would almost certainly put in a separate supplement).

 

 

 

All the 5e and 6e sidebars on example powers are additions. I think they help clarify many builds. The examples and explanatory notes have been helpful to many gamers, and the ongoing growth of the FAQ (which provided, IIRC, a lot of the extras from 5e to 5er) were gamer-requested. Now, were they of broad enough interest to merit addition to the core rules (ie were they FAQ's or SLATO* questions) may be a better question. I'd be interested in hearing from gamers who started with Sidekick in 5e or the basic rules inn 6e, then bought the full core rules. Most of the additions are examples, explanations, etc. - the very things that, as you note, bumped the page count. I'm curious whether they found value, or just page inflation, in moving to the full 5e.

 

If old schoolers worked everything out, how is it that there are so many rule arguments on the Boards? They plugged the holes with their own interpretations, house rules and guidelines for the types of builds that would, or would not, be acceptable. To some extent, that's the nature of the beast in a highly flexible system. I think a lot of Hero gamers, especially rookies and rookie GM's, would find value in notes on why certain abilities have a Caution or Stop sign - ie "if I change this, what's the risk to my game".

 

Despite all those pages of options and examples, we still get threads from new gamers asking how to make their games more lethal, or more gritty, or more granular. For them, it seems the system hasn't provided enough options or, more likely, hasn't explained them well enough. For good or ill, the gaming community seems to more and more want every rule spelled out for them, rather than being required to make their own decisions. And why not? Won't the designer have more insights to the rule system?

 

* "Steve Long Answered This Once"

 

 

 

I suspect they will - if and when we get to a 7th Edition.

 

What would you cut, specifically, to get down to your targeted length? Would it vanish, or appear in some other book later? I suspect that anything you target for removal will be challenged by other Hero gamers as being of value, and possibly of making the rules incomplete by their removal. Are you suggesting, for example, that the Hero objective of having all the rules in the "Core Rulebook" should be abandoned as impractical and making the rules excessively lengthy?

 

Perhaps your objective could be met by releasing the "Hero System Basic Rules" (much like the current Basic Rulebook, with a mandate that page count cannot increase - cut some less commonly used rules instead) with these being focused as "the primary rules of the game", removing these basic rules from the Core Rules Vol 1 and 2 and renaming this revised publication the "Advanced Rules", then offering the two in a bundle as the "Complete Basic and Advanced Rules" (which, if the 6e experience holds true, will be ignored by most game stores, which will put both books on the shelf and offer no discount for buying them together).

 

I think I'd try to simplify costing further, make skill resolution rolls and combat rolls identical or extremely similar mechanically, and break the 60-80 odd powers down into several "meta" sets--Damage, Defense, Move, Sense, Adjust, Create, Alter Self, Alter Other, etc.--and then break the metas out into respective sets of options and explanations. Doing this might save some word count by eliminating redundant explanations(e.g., you might need only one mental powers results table). Ditto for advantages and limitations, might consider shifting costing there to something simpler. If there's a need for further explanatory text or FAQs, you could print up a Gamemaster's Handbook, which would be 50% advice/ideas, and 50% rules clarifications. I think how long the rules should be is dependent on your audience. If you want a game that anyone can pick up, learn in a week, and play right away, I think you're looking at something in the 150-250 page range. If you want a game that has a slight learning curve, but has pretty clearly set out rules, so you can master it in less than a year, maybe 300-500 pages. If you want a game that requires multiple tomes, explains every single nuance at length, and provides options out the wazoo, but which is going to be a bar to entry for a significant percentage of newbs and players of other systems, you can pretty much stay on the track that Hero's on right now, imo.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

One example I forgot to mention. 6e did remove a couple of redundant powers. Force Field is gone - buy Resistant Protection with limitations to suit. Transfer is gone - buy a combined Aid and Drain power. In respect of the latter, I've seen a number of complaints about Transfer being removed. I've seen a few complaints about Force Field disappearing. The use of Detect to build what used to be enhanced senses hasn't been universally well received either.

 

I suspect there would be a significant number of gamers who would react negatively to having to build abilities now spelled out in the Powers listing become combined builds of the meta powers. Many gamers find the current need to construct a power from a base Power, an Advantage or two, and a couple of Limitations overly complex.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

Now please allow me time to get my flame-retardant skivvies.

 

Got some room in there for me?

 

Or, an extra pair? That works too.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

I don't hate 6th Edition. There's a lot to like. But the page count creep and price creep bother me. A lot. And if a power or rule requires extensive clarification, perhaps it'd be better to just rewrite the rule or power in the first place, to minimize the ambiguity and remove the need for a 3 page annotated writeup.

[Tasha]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

I think I'd try to simplify costing further' date=' make skill resolution rolls and combat rolls identical or extremely similar mechanically, and break the 60-80 odd powers down into several "meta" sets--Damage, Defense, Move, Sense, Adjust, Create, Alter Self, Alter Other, etc.--and then break the metas out into respective sets of options and explanations. Doing this [i']might[/i] save some word count by eliminating redundant explanations(e.g., you might need only one mental powers results table). Ditto for advantages and limitations, might consider shifting costing there to something simpler. If there's a need for further explanatory text or FAQs, you could print up a Gamemaster's Handbook, which would be 50% advice/ideas, and 50% rules clarifications. I think how long the rules should be is dependent on your audience. If you want a game that anyone can pick up, learn in a week, and play right away, I think you're looking at something in the 150-250 page range. If you want a game that has a slight learning curve, but has pretty clearly set out rules, so you can master it in less than a year, maybe 300-500 pages. If you want a game that requires multiple tomes, explains every single nuance at length, and provides options out the wazoo, but which is going to be a bar to entry for a significant percentage of newbs and players of other systems, you can pretty much stay on the track that Hero's on right now, imo.

 

Do you know that this is one of the Oldest Arguments on Hero Boards. There have been proponents of this since the days of the Hero Boards on AOL.

 

Unfortunatly your "Simplification" would make Character Gen MUCH more complicated for Newbies. These boards would light up with "how do I write up Teleportation, How do I write up Guns". The extra set of example powers would make the new "simple" rules balloon out to as many pages as 6e.

 

Actually I don't think that DOJ is having a problem selling the 2 books. In Fact I seem to remember that the intitial print run has finally run out and they are contemplating a new run of books. I am wondering if people really are having an issue with the extra text. Seems to me when I started to play Hero back in the 80's. That having those extra explanations would have done wonders for my first few characters.

[Tasha]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

I don't hate 6th Edition. There's a lot to like. But the page count creep and price creep bother me. A lot. And if a power or rule requires extensive clarification' date=' perhaps it'd be better to just rewrite the rule or power in the first place, to minimize the ambiguity and remove the need for a 3 page annotated writeup.[/quote']

 

WTH did you think 5th edition was? It was Steve going through the rules looking to clarify and rewrite ambiguous rules. I don't know what magical combination of words you expect someone to come up with to explain things like linked, Adjustment powers and other things that have caused many fights on the boards through the years.

 

The funny thing about 6e is that it is the book(s) that most fans wanted. There have been call for years for DOJ to publish books in Color to compete with 3ed D&D's beautiful books. The extra stuff was already in 5er. Again I would quite surprised if the Word Count of the 6e rules document even increased by 10%. Word count is really the only fair way to count whether or not a system is growing and will keep growing. Most of the price creep can really be attributed to the color artwork, Color printing and better Paper. All three of those things really make a book more expensive (also printing to the edge of the page is pretty expensive too)

[megaplayboy]

Re: Just saw 6th Edition and got a chance to leaf through it...

 

WTH did you think 5th edition was? It was Steve going through the rules looking to clarify and rewrite ambiguous rules. I don't know what magical combination of words you expect someone to come up with to explain things like linked, Adjustment powers and other things that have caused many fights on the boards through the years.

 

The funny thing about 6e is that it is the book(s) that most fans wanted. There have been call for years for DOJ to publish books in Color to compete with 3ed D&D's beautiful books. The extra stuff was already in 5er. Again I would quite surprised if the Word Count of the 6e rules document even increased by 10%. Word count is really the only fair way to count whether or not a system is growing and will keep growing. Most of the price creep can really be attributed to the color artwork, Color printing and better Paper. All three of those things really make a book more expensive (also printing to the edge of the page is pretty expensive too)

 

568,133 words, after a copy and paste into Word. Unfortunately, I don't have a pdf of FRED to compare against, but dividing up 568,133/788 pages, I get an average of 720 words per page. If FRED is less than half a million words, I guess I win this argument. 592/788= 75%. In order for FRED to be 90% the word count of 6th, it has to contain 20% more text per page on average, or about 866 words per page. Guess I'll take a sample size of a few pages--full text, text with pics, text with tables--and see how it compares. I'm pretty sure I'm right about this, though.

Incidentally, "War and Peace"(English translation) clocks in around 560,000 words.

 

Edit: found the free "Intro to hero system 5th edition" online--5 pages, same basic formatting as 5th. 3760 words, averaging...752 words per page. 752x592= 445,184 words. That's an expansion of about 25%, from FRED to 6th. Now, if you can pull up the full FRED pdf and do the word count and its significantly higher, feel free to post that.