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Levels w/DCV for Sweeps


Supreme

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Rapid Attack just lets you make a Sweep as a 1/2 phase action instead of a full phase action. It doesn't do anything for the DCV penalty.

 

I'd have to say that was a darn good question.

 

The levels would get sort of halved - they round up. I think you should just go with 3 pt skill levels for a close group of attacks. Then allocate those as you need them for OCV or offset the DCV penalty.

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Re: Levels w/DCV for Sweeps

 

Originally posted by Supreme

If I wanted to purchase levels with DCV, but only for performing sweeps (to counteract the 1/2 DCV penalty) how much would that cost? Also, if I purchased levels with DCV for sweep maneuvers, would the levels get halved as well?

 

 

Question 1

 

I'd likley buy it as +1 DCV Skill level with a -1/2 limation only with sweeps. Works about to 5/(1.5) = 3pts. Now that's not too cheap really. Even if you make it a -1 limiations its still 2pts per skill level.

 

Question 2

 

Yes it gets halved afterwards, since you add all DCV skill levels first before you modifiy it for the manuever.

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Guest Keneton

Rapid Attack allows you to use a half phase and still sweep. It must be bought seperately for HTH and Ranged Combat.

 

PSL's are not appropriate here as PSLs are to offset OCV penalties not DCV penalties.

 

Even if one bought levels, they would still be halved so why by them with a limitation. Just buy good levels and place them in offense where you need them in the sweep and dont just commit to a sweep at a bad time.

 

I have a villain that will be published in an upcoming DH adventure. He uses Fats Draw with his sweeped attack to hit and cause KB before the conter attack lands. In team fights try not to commit to a sweep until late in a phase before a phase you go in.

 

EX: If I am a 6 Speed I would commit to a sweep in the bottom of the 1st from my held 12th to come out of the sweep in the second at my Dex. This tactic is very effective and often set up with Fastdraw and Tactics (to out hold your opponent!)

 

:eek:

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Re: Levels w/DCV for Sweeps

 

Originally posted by Supreme

If I wanted to purchase levels with DCV, but only for performing sweeps (to counteract the 1/2 DCV penalty) how much would that cost? Also, if I purchased levels with DCV for sweep maneuvers, would the levels get halved as well?

 

I would say 1 for sweeps and rapid fire, and 1.5 for just one or the other.

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Re: Levels w/DCV for Sweeps

 

Originally posted by Supreme

If I wanted to purchase levels with DCV, but only for performing sweeps (to counteract the 1/2 DCV penalty) how much would that cost? Also, if I purchased levels with DCV for sweep maneuvers, would the levels get halved as well?

 

According to the FAQ, PSL's aren't to be used to counteract Penalities like those associated with sweep maneuvers...

 

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/rules/SKILLS.htm

 

Q: Could a character buy Penalty Skill Levels to counteract the standard OCV penalty imposed by a Combat Maneuver, such as the -3 OCV for a Grab By?

 

A: No. If a character wants to buy PSLs with the attack, he has to define some form of negative OCV modifier they counteract — such as the Range Modifier or Hit Location modifiers. If he wants to counteract the OCV penalty associated with a Combat Maneuver, buy 2-point Combat Skill Levels.

 

I researched this when It came up in another thread... It was focused on OCV to increase the number of people being swept without minus....But applies here also.

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Re: Re: Levels w/DCV for Sweeps

 

Originally posted by GradonSilverton

According to the FAQ, PSL's aren't to be used to counteract Penalities like those associated with sweep maneuvers...

 

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/rules/SKILLS.htm

 

 

 

I researched this when It came up in another thread... It was focused on OCV to increase the number of people being swept without minus....But applies here also.

 

While it applies to any OCV penalties, 2 pts CSL do not ever add to DCV, which is what the original poster was trying to fiqure out how to do.

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Re: Re: Re: Levels w/DCV for Sweeps

 

Originally posted by nblade

While it applies to any OCV penalties, 2 pts CSL do not ever add to DCV, which is what the original poster was trying to fiqure out how to do.

 

I thought I saw that as the solution earlier in the thread...

 

the answer is CSL...3 pointers....FAQ again

http://www.herogames.com/SupportFAQs/rules/COMBAT%20AND%20ADVENTURING.htm

 

but I agree with Keneton.... its all still halved, why waiste 'em...make 'em count

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Um, CV limit campaigns?

 

With an 8 DCV, I can buy +8 DCV levels (40 active), only while Sweeping (-1) for 20 points.

 

That makes my DCV while Sweeping (8 +8)/2= 8.

 

Then I can buy Penalty Skill Levels to Offset the OCV cost. +8 PSL vs Sweep only should be 12 points.

 

That gives you 32 points spent for hitting 5 people at full OCV and DCV.

 

With whatever attack you want to use.

 

If you make the DCV levels a -1 1/2 lim instead of a -1, then the cost of the + 8 DCV is 16 points, for a total of 28 points.

 

Is 32 or 28 a more appropriate cost for this power?

 

Compare it to Autofire on your attack. Assuming 10 dice (50 points). Autofire: 5 as a naked advantage costs 25 points. the PSLs still cost 12 so that's 37 points.

 

Wait, let's do a HA. 4d6 HA, Autofire: 5 costs 20X1.5= 30 active, 20 real. PSLs make that 32. (I'm assuming that you've got a 20 str, and use a martial strike to get 10 dice)

 

So, it seems to me that a -1 limitation on the skill levels seems to price things out about right.

 

D

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Originally posted by GradonSilverton

Limitations on Skill Levels?!?!?!?!?!?! The thought has never occured. I would think is it against 5th rules by default, but thnigs can change via house rules...

 

Actually its not, but as the FRED points out, 5pt CSL are the first CSL that can actually take limiations. Of course as usual you will need GM approval as well.

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Well, yeah, you could just construct it as follows.

 

24 8 Skill Levels with Martial Art.

12 8 penalty skill levels with Sweep.

 

Heck, just make 12 skill levels with Martial Arts.

 

That's 36 points, and really allows you to spank someone. mainly because when you're putting the beatdown on someone with your Martial Strike you can put all the regular levels in OCV or what have you. (Ha! 20 OCV! take that!) Lots of flexibility.

 

But, and this is a biggie, there are a lot of GMs that don't let 3 point skill levels with HTH stuff apply to ranged attacks.

 

If that's your GM, then while you've devoted all your levels to HTH DCV, you've still got 1/2 DCV vs Ranged Attacks.

 

So, while you've opened the whole can o wup arse on the 5 bad guys you've dropped into, the 3 other ones coordinate fire on your DCV 4 (in this example) butt.

 

Purpose built DCV levels get away from that, since they always apply for DCV.

 

Any DCV.

 

Now, you could just buy +4 DCV levels for the 20 points. You've got a 12 DCV against everything, and 6 while Sweeping. Instead of 8 and 8.

 

And that may well be the most efficient use of the points. You're right. Unless you're planning on sweeping a lot.

 

And if you weren't, why would you be worrying about creating a sweep based power anyways. ;)

 

You still may be better off with an HA, depending on the character.

 

20 Str, Offensive Strike, 4d6 HA, Autofire (+1/2), HA(-1/2) is 12 dice autofire. Counting that up, 10 for the str, 5 for the os, 20 for the HA is 35. You don't have to spend for Rapid Fire (which I forgot in my examples), and if you're only planning on hitting a couple of people, then the PSLs won't matter as much.

 

D

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Guest Keneton

You could by a hand attack or an EB with no range to the same DC with Area effect one hex and the extra area advantage (total +3/4) allowing you to hit your own hex and evryone around. Then you are in fact sweeping against a 0 or 3 DCV and all of your levels can go into dex roll or DCV! This is fair, simple, and more efficient.

 

Otherwise buy the good levels and live! You'll never regret them!

 

:D

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Originally posted by misterdeath

Um, CV limit campaigns?

 

With an 8 DCV, I can buy +8 DCV levels (40 active), only while Sweeping (-1) for 20 points.

 

That makes my DCV while Sweeping (8 +8)/2= 8.

 

Then I can buy Penalty Skill Levels to Offset the OCV cost. +8 PSL vs Sweep only should be 12 points.

 

That gives you 32 points spent for hitting 5 people at full OCV and DCV.

 

With whatever attack you want to use.

 

If you make the DCV levels a -1 1/2 lim instead of a -1, then the cost of the + 8 DCV is 16 points, for a total of 28 points.

 

Is 32 or 28 a more appropriate cost for this power?

 

Compare it to Autofire on your attack. Assuming 10 dice (50 points). Autofire: 5 as a naked advantage costs 25 points. the PSLs still cost 12 so that's 37 points.

 

Wait, let's do a HA. 4d6 HA, Autofire: 5 costs 20X1.5= 30 active, 20 real. PSLs make that 32. (I'm assuming that you've got a 20 str, and use a martial strike to get 10 dice)

 

So, it seems to me that a -1 limitation on the skill levels seems to price things out about right.

 

D

 

Basically my thinking.

 

This could be scary, so you have to have GM approval :)

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Originally posted by Keneton

You could by a hand attack or an EB with no range to the same DC with Area effect one hex and the extra area advantage (total +3/4) allowing you to hit your own hex and evryone around. Then you are in fact sweeping against a 0 or 3 DCV and all of your levels can go into dex roll or DCV! This is fair, simple, and more efficient.

Unless you put Selective Targeting on that bad boy, it’s also an efficient way to lay some smack-down on your allies, if they get too close to you. With Selective you won’t have to worry about hitting your friends, but you’ll need to hit against the target’s normal DCV. On the bright side there won’t be the OCV penalties based on the number attacks that Sweep entails, or the Sweep DCV penalty.

 

But there are some more subtle benefits of the Sweep w/ CSLs method that the Area Effect method lacks that you may want to consider:

  • You can attempt to hit the same target multiple times in a phase with Sweep.
  • You can use your Sweep levels with ANY of your H-to-H attacks. Bare knuckle normal damage, melee weapon killing damage, Grabs (to grab more than two limbs at once), etc. With AoE, you can only use it for the attack you bought the advantage for.
  • In some Heroic games, the GM might look askance at a “power†like this, but would allow limited CSLs without a second thought.

 

It all depends on what the goal is. If the goal was to be good at a single attack that can deal with multiple opponents at the same time, then the AoE is probably the most efficient way of doing it. But if goal is to be good at dealing with multiple opponents, or dealing multiple hits to a single opponent, either with a variety of different H-to-H attacks, then Sweep with CSLs is most likely a better option.

 

Note – The Autofire suggestion doesn’t lose out on the ability to strike a single target more than once (1st bullet point) but does have the drawbacks described in bullets 2 and 3.

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Guest Keneton

JamesG

 

You are correct!

 

I forgot selective. My intention was only to show another style of building the power, but my original stance is still just buy good levels and dont sweat it. In fact attempting to circumvent the sweep penalties would be illegal inmy campaign due to the Effectiveness Rating and house rules that we use.

 

The autofire methd is the Way Speed pounder (an upcoming villain for DH) is built along with all of the autofire advantages. In this case PSL's can be used to rapid autofer a person 10 times!

:D

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Originally posted by Keneton

In fact attempting to circumvent the sweep penalties would be illegal inmy campaign due to the Effectiveness Rating and house rules that we use.

 

Just curious, are 2 and 3-pnt CSLs with Sweeps illegal in your campaign, or just just DCV levels (only with Sweep, -1)?

 

If both are illegal, can a character apply a 5-pnt CSL w/ H-to-H to sweeps in your game?

 

The reason I'm asking is I've been considering using your Effectiveness Rating and was wondering why Sweeps are such an issue with it.

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Guest Keneton

The ER itself does not restrict the levels indicated. The ER only says that an 8 point level or a 3 point level RATE the SAME. This means why buy the cheap levels, buy good levels to maximize your efficiency. This is a whole other topic!

 

PSL's are rated seperately as they do not add to OCV only negate penalties.

 

Specifically in my campign house rules I restrict what we call Fleshing levels. . . here is an example.

 

A sacrifice strike is +1/-2 +4d6 Strike

A Martial strike is +0/+2 +2d6 Strike

 

Note that too efficiency the Sac Strike adds 1 OCV and 4 DC or 5 but then subtracts 2 DCV for a net of +3 effectiveness.

 

The Martial Strike adds 2 DCV and 2 DC for a net effectiveness of +4. Note the martail stike is on average better!

 

Some players would tweak their character by buying +1 with Sac Strike, Block, and Haymaker to "Flesh out" this disparity in effectiveness. I made this illegal in my house rules.

 

The ER is much less restrictive and has no real limitation here.

 

Please note however the inherint penalty of buying "less useful" levels asd they cost the same ER wise and can end up being restrictive to charcter efficiency in the futue when points are no longer an issue.

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Keneton,

 

OK, I get what you mean about the cheap levels rating the same as the expensive levels, but only if the cheap levels apply to the Most Effective Attack or raise the Max OCV. For example, imagine an Energy Projector whose Most Effective Attack is a big EB and who has a number of CSLs with ranged combat. If this character also has Martial Arts for H-to-H combat, then a couple of 3-pnt CSLs with martial arts won’t impact his ER at all.

 

Edit

Also, a character is not "locked in" to the cheap CSLs. He can 'upgrade' them to broader CSLs using XPs. While it this is something I'd allow as a GM, I wasn't sure if it was strictly legal by-the-book, so I asked the esteemed Mr. Long:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=994

End Edit

 

I also understand what you mean by the concept of “fleshing outâ€. What I don’t get is why that is considered a problem. Can you elaborate on why you felt the need to ban the practice?

 

Also I’m still wondering what, if any, CSLs you allow to be applied to sweeps in your game.

 

Thanks.

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