Levels w/DCV for Sweeps

[JamesG]

Originally posted by misterdeath

Well, yeah, you could just construct it as follows.

 

24 8 Skill Levels with Martial Art.

12 8 penalty skill levels with Sweep.

 

Heck, just make 12 skill levels with Martial Arts.

That's 36 points.

 

Note that per the FAQ, CSLs with Martial Arts never apply to Sweeps, so this is not a viable solution.

Q: If a character performs a Sweep with a Martial Maneuver, do 3-point Combat Skill Levels with Martial Arts apply to the attack?

A: No. The character is performing a Sweep, which isn’t a Martial Maneuver, even if it incorporates a Martial Maneuver in this instance. But he could use a 5-point CSL with HTH Combat.

[Guest Keneton]

Originally posted by JamesG

Keneton,

 

OK, I get what you mean about the cheap levels rating the same as the expensive levels, but only if the cheap levels apply to the Most Effective Attack or raise the Max OCV. For example, imagine an Energy Projector whose Most Effective Attack is a big EB and who has a number of CSLs with ranged combat. If this character also has Martial Arts for H-to-H combat, then a couple of 3-pnt CSLs with martial arts won’t impact his ER at all.

 

I also understand what you mean by the concept of “fleshing outâ€. What I don’t get is why that is considered a problem. Can you elaborate on why you felt the need to ban the practice?

 

Also I’m still wondering what, if any, CSLs you allow to be applied to sweeps in your game.

 

Thanks.

 

About Big EB ER example: "I can see youve fashioned your own lightsaber!" Yes you do get it. The only way it would count is if it triggered the optional formula Top DCV Greater than Top Attack DCV+3 as in Martial dodge with Martial arts levels can do.

 

Fleshing out is not overly dangerous, its just non genre. The most practicle example of abuse was the "Fury Episode"

 

Fury was a brick with 70 Str a 7 Speed and Martial Arts. She rated at 120 CR (this would be like 155 ER!) She was very tuff. We were dealing witha villain called the Asp that was extremely hard to hit. Fury had a 30 Dex and 8 Levels of HTH as I remeber and had the Fast Strike Maneuver. This made her OCV 10+8+2=20, but she still kept hitting air against the Asp.

 

Fury decided to flesh out her punch to make it equal to a martial strike. Hence she created the following quasi Martial Manever.

 

Accurate Strike: +4 OCV with Punch 8 pts.

No she built the maneuver with levels so it is no longer restricted like a martial maneuver. Now Fury had a 22 OCV and beat the ASP. The GM had designed the Asp to be just a little out of Fury's range, but now that was over.

 

The next abuse was Tarn and the Polerams. Tarn bought PSLs to cover Pole arm CV disadvatages hence causing everyone with shorter weapons to fight at negatives against him. This seemed against the spirit of the weapons use.

 

Soon these Fleshing levels were banned. Are they that bad, no in hindsight we may have reacted too harshly. The problem was more the starting power level and not the fleshing, but this was extreme munchkiism. For Example, ny old Keneton was a 120 no matter what he did!

 

This was just the opoosite of what the CR and later the ER was meant to allow!

 

As per the FAQ statement on sweeps, I am very confused as to Steve's point. Since Sweep is useable both HTH and Ranged, by Steve's logic in the Faq only 8 point or 10 point levls would apply. I completely disagree with this. He gives examples that contradict this in FRED (p 263)and UMA (p.144 and 151). In fact Steve goes on to explain what manuvers can be use with sweep. How this disqualifies the use of the appropriate levels with theses maneuver is beyond me. I find it silly and ask where these heroic charcetr examples got their 12 CV's without CSL's?

 

I do and will allow any appropriate level to effect the CV of sweep as long as the maneuver is appropriate. For more information on sweeps and rapid attack please see my House Rules doc attached.

[JamesG]

Sounds like your banning of the “Fleshing Out†technique is a philosophical decision more of a game balance issue. I don’t think I’d have any problem with what Fury did, as long as she stayed within the campaign Max CV limits, though I do wonder why she wouldn’t buy 2-pnt CSLs with her Fast Strike instead of Punch, unless she wanted to avoid the KB penalty suffered by Martial Arts. I disagree her actions are non-genre, as comics/films are full of examples of the hero being defeated by a villain and then practicing new techniques so they can triumph in the rematch. Though like I said this is a matter of taste/philosophy.

 

On Tarn and Pole Arms, I can only think of two OCV penalties Pole Arms have; the base –1 OCV and the optional OCV penalty when an opponent with a shorter weapon gets inside your range. I don’t think you can buy PSLs for the base –1 OCV since it is intrinsic to Pole Arms (though you could buy a 2-pnt CSL instead). You could buy PSLs to counteract the shorter weapon penalties. As with Fury, I would find no issue with Tarn’s use of CSLs/PSLs to specialize with Pole Arms. But again, it’s a philosophy thing.

 

Originally posted by Keneton

As per the FAQ statement on sweeps, I am very confused as to Steve's point. Since Sweep is useable both HTH and Ranged.

 

No, it’s not. Sweep is only useable in H-to-H (5E263, first sentence of the Sweep section). If you want to use the ‘sweep’ mechanic at range use the Rapid Fire maneuver. Steve’s answer now makes much more sense, as 5-pnt CSLs w/ H-to-H apply to Sweeps. I can see the point of your argument that 3-pnt CSLs with MA should apply when Sweeping a martial maneuver, but I can also understand Steve’s desire to maintain game balance by banning it. Since I can see both sides, as a GM, I’d go with the official ruling, but as a player would not be dismayed if my GM didn’t.

 

I do and will allow any appropriate level to effect the CV of sweep as long as the maneuver is appropriate. For more information on sweeps and rapid attack please see my House Rules doc attached.

 

Hmm, the ER article in DH#3 says that specific levels with Sweeping should not be allowed when using the ER, but I saw no mention of that in a quick look through your House Rules. Has your ban on Sweep CSLs been dropped?

 

I notice you didn’t comment on my pointing out that PCs can upgrade ‘cheap CSLs’ to ‘good CSLs’ using XPs, so that they need not fear hindering their future efficiency by buying 2 and 3 point CSLs early in their career. Since I edited that in later I thought maybe you missed it.

[Guest Keneton]

The Response!

 

Regarding the banning fleshing levels: Completely philosophical, but undersatnd the extra 2 levels with Fast Strike would have made her CR 122 with Fast Strike. The idea was that the CR allowed 4 levels with punch to equal the martial arts maneuver. Philosophicaly why would a regular punch be better than any legal punch maneuver. About Tarn, the idea is that even small CV swings in Fantsy Hero can be a big deal. The ER basically solves the problem on its own w/o my intervention, but old habits dies hard. In hindsight the house rule is unnecessary.

 

Sweep/Rapid Attack: Technically different maneuvers yes, but operating under the same rules. You are correct that 5 point levels could work for OCV. I guess I got confused as the thread was about DCV and the 5 point levels would only effect the HTH DCV. For OCV you are exactly correct. 5 Point DCV levels would also work, but be halved. My point is that by disallowing all OCV adders that are under 5 points Multiple Power Attacks replace Sweep.

 

If Steve is official with this ruling, why does he say this (see below) in another section of the FAQ. He definately contradicts his answer from above.

________________________________________________

 

Q: Why should a character buy Two-Weapon Fighting (10 points) when he can simply buy two 2-point Combat Skill Levels with Sweep, and define the special effect as “fighting with a weapon in each hand�

 

A: The cost for TWF is calculated based on CSLs to counteract the Sweep penalty, and Ambidexterity to counter the standard Off-Hand Penalty.

 

If you’re going to use the Sweep maneuver as a standard option in the campaign, the alternate route you suggest works better from a point-accounting standpoint. However, not all campaigns use that Maneuver — it is specifically listed as optional — and for them, the more “traditional†TWF Skill might be appropriate even if characters normally cannot Sweep.

 

If you still want to use TWF as-is, but encourage people to take it instead of just two CSLs with Sweep, tack some other benefit onto it. For example, maybe if a character has TWF, he only suffers a -2 DCV penalty, instead of 1/2 DCV.

_______________________________________________

I understand he notes exceptions, but he is defintely playing both sides here mechanically. Are you starting to feel me now?! Thanks for a great discusion James G. You have a fine grasp of game mechanics.

[JamesG]

More on Sweeps and CSLs

 

Ah, I see what the problem is. I think you are misinterpreting Steve’s ruling in the FAQ I quoted and my comments on it. Steve isn’t saying that no CSLs lower than 5 point CSLs can apply to Sweeps, he’s saying that 3-pnt CSLs with Martial Arts don’t.

 

So you can buy a 2-pnt CSL with Sweeps. This will increase your OCV with any Sweep you do.

 

You can buy a 3-pnt CSL with Sweeps. You can assign this to OCV or DCV when performing any Sweep (though because Sweep halves DCV after applying levels, it less efficient to place them in DCV).

 

And of course, 5-pnt CSLs with HTH, All Combat and Overall levels can all apply to Sweeps.

 

But if you are Sweeping a Karate Chop, your 3-pnt CSLs with Karate do not apply. (Nor do your 2-pnt CSLs with Karate Chop). In other words, what Steve is saying is you need either dedicated CSLs with Sweep, or you need applicable 5-pnt or higher “generic†levels.

 

In this light, there is no contradiction in Steve’s two FAQ listings.

 

So, I’m still wondering, do you allow the 2 and 3 pnt CSLs with Sweep in your ER campaign?

 

If using them I would suggest a house rule that your OCV with a Sweep can never be higher than your OCV with the same maneuver unsweeped (unswept?). For example take a character with 4 CSLs with sweep, and those are the only CSLs he has. If he Sweeps his Martial Strike for two attacks on an opponent, with all Sweep levels in OCV, his OCV would be two higher than if he did just the Martial Strike. That does not make sense, that he’s better when making two attacks instead of one. So when making a two attack Sweep this character can only use two of his Sweep levels in OCV.

 

If the same character had 2 (or more) CSLs with Martial Arts and/or Martial Strike, then he could apply all his Sweep levels to OCV when doing a two attack Sweep of Martial Strike.

[Guest Keneton]

James G the amazing!

 

I stand corrected. I understand him now better, but his examples still do seem a little contradictory unless all of them had good levels. Seeing how the characters from CKC rarely have any CV or good levels, I find that far fetched! I agree, I misunderstood.

 

Regarding allowing the levels, logic tells me Yes allow them. I hate to ban anything. I still have a hang up about fleshing and consider it silly to be able to conteract these types of negatives. It would just lead to a sweep and rapid attack fest! Now I know there are ways around this-I do understand tactics, but . . . There are times where sweep can be very abused.

 

During the BBB days Keneton had Use art with Humanoids. He could then grab an opponent and use his body as a wepon. If he wanted to knock someone out fast he would sweep some of the hexes around him. His top OCV was a fast strike with a 9 base and 7 levels. His OCV wa 9+7+2=18. He was -4 for the weapon and -say 6 for the sweep (4 hexes). The total CV was then an 8 aginst this hex DCV of 0 (adjacent hex.) I need to roll an 18 to miss. With my then 70 Str and the DC for the maneuver I cranked the victim 5 times for 16d6 each hit.

 

Want to give you another fleshing idea and why we banned it another time. . .

 

In the old CR (cleaned up in er). Some charcters would take Concentrate O DCV so that they could throw attacks with extra DC's equal to their base DCV. This was "Switching and Fleshing"

 

For Example: If Keneton could throw a 14d6 EB and had a base 9 DCV, he could concentrat to 0 DCV and have a 23d6 EB at the same rating. In the ER this is stopped by the Max abilities category.

 

Well, it was with stuff like this in mind an many 1000+ point characters that this set of rules developed. You can see that even with experienced gamers Power Gaming can rear its ugly head. (I still like power gaming!!)

 

y present campign has low powered guys with a 100 ER limit. Everyone is pretty reasonable. I'm still a little gunshy about fleshing.

 

Regarding my new son: He sleeps alot!

[JamesG]

I interrupt this dialog between JamesG and Keneton to briefly return to the original subject of CSLs and Sweeps.

 

Earlier on the thread it was proposed that characters buy PSLs to counteract the OCV penalties imposed by Sweeps. This is not by-the-book legal; one must buy full 2-pnt CSLs (or greater):

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1029

 

Also, earlier I listed the different “types†of CSLs that can apply to Sweeps. I forgot one: CSLs with weapons. For example, if you have a 3-pnt CSL with ‘Swords’, you can apply that CSL when Sweeping an attack with a sword.

[JamesG]

Now, back to the dialog…

 

I agree that the BBB Keneton’s tactic as described was abusive. But part of that is because the tactic of using a grabbed character as a weapon is prone to abuse in and of itself, before adding Sweep into the mix. The 5E Champions book has a good discussion on the topic on pg 153.

 

First off, I would not allow ‘Use art with Humanoids’ for MA. I’m not saying there is a specific rule against it, but it’s just something I’d not allow as a GM. Also, keep in mind that if the grabbed character is conscious, your OCV is halved when attacking another target, and the floor is a different target. So now we have 9+7-4-6=6/2=3 OCV vs 0 DCV. Still pretty good odds, but keep in mind your DCV is halved for anyone else attacking you while you do this. Also, I wouldn’t allow you to Sweep the opponent against bare floor, since I picture a Sweep as being a fluid movement, and smash, lift, smash, lift, smash isn’t fluid. If you were in a room with a bunch of columns, I’d allow you to Sweep against an adjacent column or two and then the floor, or if by a wall against the wall and then down to the floor (or if in a corner, against two walls and the floor). Also, if in rough terrain with large rocks and boulders (or lots of ruble) on the ground, I’d probably allow you to Sweep the grabbed opponent on the ground for 2 or 3 attacks. But all in all, it won’t be so easy to arrange.

 

Now, I’m not saying all of that is strictly “by the rules†(thought the OCV/DCV penalties for maintaining a grab are). It’s just intended to show there are other ways to deal with an abusive tactic.

 

But I agree that Sweeps can be very effective, and maybe not fully accounted for in the current ER system. In the ER article in DH#3 you mention adding a new category for Special Combat Skills like TWF, Autofire Skills and Rapid Attack. Maybe add active points in specific levels with Sweep to this category in order to reflect the usefulness of Sweep levels.

 

The Concentration/Switching/Fleshing example is quite nasty. But as you pointed out, the current ER system takes care of this without a need to ban all Fleshing. It was really the switching that was the big problem there. The more I look at it, the more I like the ER system and am impressed by it (though as our discussion on the Rule of X thread demonstrates, I can’t help but propose a couple of tweaks).

[Guest Keneton]

I've been playing Champions sice I was in the 8th Grade. (I am 34!). I share the shame of my min maxing and my powergaming so that those newer can apprciate wht Mr. Long has done for this game. It has evolved very well. It has matured well!

 

Now concerning sweeps. I am posting a section from my house rules that I feel to be germain to this discussion. Since I can't insert my chart each type is detailed as follows

 

Attack Type(s) /# Of Attacks /Notes

 

Autofire or Prohibited Special effect or Limitations/ None/ Autofire(s) may Rapid Fire as their base attack type with the worst modifier. EX: Autofire Area Normal with Rapid Attack = 2 max.

 

Target DCV and a Normal Defense/ 3 /These include Strike, EB’s, KA, HA. As long as not an area or exotic defense.

 

Target DCV and Exotic Defense or ECV /2 / Examples include Ego Attack, Drain, Flash or EB with NND or AVLD.

 

Target Area regardless of Defense /2 / This is max for any area attack unless Autofire without Rapid attack which is default zero.

 

In addition my house rules spell at the following clarifications.

 

·Combat Skill Levels (CSL’s): We will be making a distinction between types of levels as noted under optional rules. Only 8 point levels, 5 point DCV levels, and Overall levels affect a character’s DCV to range. We will not allow levels with flight or levels with ranged combat to effect ranged DCV. We will also use the appropriate rules distinction between Heroic and Superheroic adders for damage use of CLS from FrED (p. 35). Appropriate CSL’s may be added to Dex rolls to go first, Fast Draw skill rolls, Dive For Cover, and allow for bouncing attacks. CSL’s may not be bought to “flesh out†martial maneuvers. A good limit for the number of CSL’s is 6, but this is not a hard rule. The GM may allow a character to have more CSL’s especially if they do not all work together.

 

·Rapid Attack: Rapid attack range works with mental powers. You may Rapid attack or sweep as many targets as you like, but there are limits to the number of attacks per target. You may Rapid Attack or Sweep up to 3 times with powers that effect a normal defense (PD or ED for example). You may only Rapid Attack or Sweep the same target 2 times with an exotic attacks (Adjustment Power, AVLD, NND, Flashes, or Mental Powers).

 

Multiple Power Attacks: This idea is very good, but can be quite abusive. Rate any Multiple Power attacks on the ER if your character can do them. If you do not use Multiple Power attacks, you will not get the limitation for them as discussed under Limitations. Martial Maneuvers (regardless of the example in FrED) are not distinct enough to be used in a MPA. For this effect use the sweep maneuver instead.

 

Sweep: Read the rules for rapid attack. You may sweep up to the number of times indicated on Chart #3. Each attack after the first counts as –1 on the Dex roll Chart. Resolve all attacks with cumulative negative modifiers to OCV for each individual maneuver. Use the worst DCV modifier than halve this number to figure the ending DCV. Generate Knockback and or resolve the effect of martial maneuvers last using the most favorable result for Knockback or the attackers choice (throw element, grab element etc.) To block a sweep the blocker rolls separately for each attack vs. the modified OCV of the attacker. The blocker must block each attack with a cumulative –2 roll. Once a block is missed the others will continue if they are possible hits. A blocked attack does not count as a miss for continuing the Sweep. I know this sounds confusing, but most of you dodge sweeps anyways. I will explain in detail if you need clarification.

[JamesG]

Sweep Limits

 

Keneton,

 

I think your limits on the max number of attacks you can Sweep against a single target are well thought out and good for game balance. Though they can be hard to justify from a “logical†standpoint (“what do you mean my NND ‘ghost sword’ can only sweep for two attacks, while my katana can sweep for three.â€). But I don’t think this is a major problem. You might want to add one category. Bulky/Unwieldy weapons can only be used for one attack against a single target. They can sweep multiple targets as normal. (Note: weapons with a –1 OCV penalty are NOT considered unwieldy for the purpose of this rule).

 

This will nicely put a stop to tactics such as picking someone up and hitting him or her against the floor multiple times in a phase (since even though it is multiple hexes, the floor is still one ‘target’). But the classic tactic of grabbing an agent and using him as club against two others will still be allowed as before.

[Guest Keneton]

PSIREN

 

Point well taken.

 

I impose these limits after serious playtesting and the logic flows from the devestation I have caused with my new chracter Psiren. Here she is for your viewing pleasure. . .

 

Psiren

 

Player: Bob Pennington

 

Val	Char	Cost
15	STR	5
23	DEX	39
25	CON	30
14	BODY	8
18	INT	8
23	EGO	26
15	PRE	5
18	COM	4
8/18	PD	5
8/18	ED	3
5	SPD	17
8	REC	0
50	END	0
35	STUN	0

7" RUN02" SWIM03" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 150

 

Cost	Power	END
70	Mental Powers: Multipower, 70-point reserve
3u	1) Tactile TK: +30 STR, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (45 Active Points); No Figured Characteristics (-1/2) (not added to totals)
7u	2) Mental Attack: Ego Attack 7d6 (70 Active Points)	7
7u	3) Suggestion: Mind Control 11d6, Telepathic (+1/4) (69 Active Points)	7
6u	4) Fine TK: Telekinesis (20 STR) (Fine Manipulation), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (60 Active Points)
7u	5) Power TK: Telekinesis (45 STR) (68 Active Points)	7
7u	6) Mental Communication: Telepathy 14d6 (70 Active Points)	7
3u	7) TK Reflection Field: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack), Ranged (Full Range; +1) (40 Active Points); Costs Endurance (Costs END Every Phase; -1/2)	4
7u	8) TK Wall: Force Wall (12 PD / 12 ED; 4" long and 3" tall) (70 Active Points)	7
2	Athletic: Running +1" (added to Primary Value)	1
13	Mental Discipline: +13 Mental Defense (18 points total)
5	Mental Invulnerability: Damage Resistance ( / 10 Mental Def.)
32	Mental Sense: Detect A Class Of Things 13- (Discriminatory, Increased Arc of Perception: 360-Degree, Range, Sense, Targeting Sense)
30	Passive TK Field: Armor (10 PD / 10 ED) (added to Secondary Value)
20	Telepathic Link: Mind Link (Any Willing Target; Number of Minds (x4)) (25 Active Points); Stops Working If Mentalist Is Knocked Out (-1/4)

Powers Cost: 219

 

Cost	Martial Arts Maneuver
5	Defensive Strike: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +3 DCV, STR Strike
3	Defensive Throw: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +1 DCV, Block, Target Falls
5	Flying Dodge: 1/2 Phase, -- OCV, +4 DCV, Dodge All Attacks, Abort; FMove

Martial Arts Cost: 13

 

Cost	Skill
3	Acrobatics 14-
3	Breakfall 14-
3	Conversation 12-
2	Cramming (1) Requires succesful +10 Telepathy with skill holder (5 Active Points); Limited Power (Power loses about half of its effectiveness; -1)
3	KS: Paranormals (INT-based) 13-
3	Paramedics 13-
3	PS: Criminal Psychologist (INT-based) 13-
3	PS: Psychiatric Medicine (INT-based) 13-
3	SS: Pharmacology (INT-based) 13-
5	Rapid Attack (Ranged)
16	+2 with All Combat

Skills Cost: 47

 

Cost	Perk
5	Vehicles & Bases (25 Base, 0 Disad)

Perks Cost: 5

 

 

 

Total Character Cost: 434

 

Val	Disadvantages
10	Distinctive Features: Reads as mutant, Not Concealable, Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction, Detectable Only By Unusual Senses
10	Distinctive Features: Powerful mental signature, Not Concealable, Always Noticed and Causes Major Reaction, Detectable Only By Unusual Senses
25	Hunted: PSI, More Powerful, 8- (Occasionally), Harshly Punish, Extensive Non-Combat Influence, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find
20	Hunted: The Institute For Human Advancement, As Powerful, 8- (Occasionally), Harshly Punish, Extensive Non-Combat Influence, PC has a Public ID or is otherwise very easy to find
15	Physical Limitation: Cannot attack Dr. Destroyer (Mental Surgery), Infrequently, Fully Impairing
20	Psychological Limitation: Driven to clear image from taint of Dr. Destroyer, Very Common, Strong
20	Psychological Limitation: Code versus killing, Common, Total
15	Reputation: Former minion of Dr. Destroyer, Frequently (11-), Extreme
15	Social Limitation: Public ID "Psiren", Frequently (11-), Major

Disadvantage Points: 150

 

Base Points: 200

Experience Required: 84

Total Experience Available: 88

Experience Unspent: 4

[ChickenTomato]

Warning: Newbie Question

 

Okay, so, if you have 5 point H-to-H CSL's, could you sweep with a Martial Arts manuever?

[Guest Keneton]

Yes because the sweep and the MA Attack are both HTH so the levels can apply.