Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

[torchwolf]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Interesting discussion, to which there is no easy right or wrong answer, except that of course everyone should ideally be represented - but is it practically feasible?

 

Personally, I think there is a critical difference between the source literature and books produced for RPGs - it seems to me that the RPG industry will always be lagging, erring on the conservative side, simply because you have different problems to face.

Reading a comic does not involve any personal opinions or concerns, while including an issue such as alternate sexual orientation, religious beliefs, or whatever cultural framework is predominant - in an RPG, this gets very much more personal.

 

Also, RPGs have historically been, and are still, even likelier targets for popular movements along the "our kids are being indoctrinated, we must ban this" lines.

 

As for RPG products trying to handle these issues, White Wolf has apparently been fairly successful in doing it without repercussions among consumers - or is that because those consumers represents the segment of the market that would buy those products exactly because they expected to get those issues handled?

If so, there might be a commercial risk involved for many RPG companies in "testing" what the tolerance level is of their consumer base.

In the case of Hero Games I don't think it's much of an issue; more likely it simply hasn't been focused on that much - until this discussion at least.

 

In the current super RPG market, there is this example I stumbled across, for Icons: (according to the review, at least, this is a good example of how _not_ to include minorities in a game. I have not purchased it myself, since I'm not that interested in the system itself)

http://www.rpgnow.com/product_reviews_info.php?&reviews_id=53163&products_id=92737

 

To view it another way: within a majority, a diverging opinion, orientation, or belief would constitute a minority. Outside of the majority, the term "minority" would be pretty pointless.

As people interested in a superhero RPG, we are a minority and should know what it means to be part of one. That said, dealing with interpersonal or social issues is not necessarily what everyone wants enjoy in RPGs.

 

No easy answer on how to do this except "do what makes you happy".

All the books do say, do what you like with this material.

[Christopher]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Christopher,

Isn't it easier for a person who doesn't like sprinkles on his cookie to brush them off, than it is to expect someone who does like them on their cookie to buy plain cookies, go to the store, and also buy sprinkles, to put them on manually?

 

IOW, it's easier for you to "scrape away" the parts of an official writeup you don't care for, than it is for someone else to have to add parts they want to one. It's better, from a publishing standpoint, to give the consumer a bunch of options they can accept or reject, than to give them a plain product they will have to do extra work on if they want those options. It's bad business practice to impose the burden of diversity on the customer, rather than present the option of diversity in the original product.

So you rather convenience a few, but inconveniences potentially many?

The problem with superteams that have realtionship noted, is that it tends to be the only thing detailed. It literally takes up to much place, so in the end I have to use it, or you just get another bland team.

 

It seems to me that gay and bi-sexual people are more acceptable to the general public than the alternative lifestyles such as polyamory' date=' BDSM, swinging, and the various kinks some have.[/quote']

 

 

There are a lot of alternative sexualities out there, but most of which probably should fall to the GM to assign to characters, rather than being stated in the books. As I see it, if the character is only getting a paragraph or two in a book, skip sexuality completely. Mention DNPC, but don't state the sex of the partner. If it's a full page writeup with other personality traits mentioned, then mention sexuality as well.

I too think just giving catergories for DNCP is better. But I fear not even that would be "inlcusive" enough.

 

Depends on which animated series you are talking about...? Teen Titans' date=' JLU, [...'] all have a fair amount of "soap"...

Have to check out the other two, but Teen Titans and JLU/JLA were not soapy.

Perhaps our difinition is just too different.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

The problem with superteams that have realtionship noted' date=' is that it tends to be the only thing detailed. It literally takes up to much place, so in the end I have to use it, or you just get another bland team.[/quote']

 

So you're saying the only thing detailed about the the Champions (who have relationships noted) and the Sentinels (who have several relationship noted) is their relationships?

 

Really?

 

Have to check out the other two, but Teen Titans and JLU/JLA were not soapy.

Perhaps our difinition is just too different.

 

Well, feel free to define what you are talking about when you say soapy then.

 

Teen Titans focused a lot on the interpersonal relationships between the characters, many of which had romantic motivations. Virtually ever scene between Star and Robin is about them being in love with each other and not really knowing how to deal with it. BB is head over heals for Terra and is horribly betrayed and hurt by what happens. And his relationship with Raven is complicated, but it's more than "just friends" for both of them.

 

There are episodes of the JLU that involve characters going on dates (Green Arrow and Black Canary), flirting heavily (Huntress and the Question), dealing with sexual tension (Wonder Woman and Batman) and we even have some full on love triangles (John Stewart, Hawkgirl, Vixen).

 

I presume you have seen these (many) episodes of those two cartoons?

 

I also assume you aren't particularly bothered by that sort of thing, since you said those shows weren't "soapy".

 

So exactly how is it you can deal with the above sort of thing, but "DNPC (insert name of same sex partner here)" is some how horribly intrusive on your playstyle when you see it on an NPC writeup?

 

No one is asking for Champions to turn into "Days of our Super Lives" or "Will and Grace under Fire"...

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

So you rather convenience a few, but inconveniences potentially many?

I love the notion that you're "inconvenienced" by other people being able to have what they want (while what you want is also available to you) as opposed to restricting what's available to only what you want. Do you also complain to your television provider or local movie cinema about being inconvenienced by the availability of movies and programs suited to other people's tastes in addition to those you want to see?

[GestaltBennie]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Even if you disregard Lois Lane and Kathy Kane, soap opera storylines have been a significant part of superhero comics since the 60s, when Stan Lee, who also wrote romance books like Milly the Model, incorporated those types of stories into Marvel's early 60s output. It seems silly to complain about something so integral to the medium.

[phoenix240]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Christopher, could you define what you mean by "too soap opera" with an example of a show or comic that qualifies in your opinion?

[Enforcer84]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

I just want to point out, there are a LOT of openly LGB character in comics these days:

 

Guardians of the Galaxy - Moondragon, Phyla

Young Avengers - Wiccan, Hulkling

Runaways - Karolina, Xavin

X-Men (and related books) - Karma, Shatterstar, Rictor, Anole, Bling, Mystique (and Colossus over in the Ultimate Universe)

Alpha Flight - Northstar

Outsiders - Grace, Thunder

Authority - Midnighter, Apollo, The Engineer, Swift

JSA - Obsidian

Secret Six - Scandal Savage, Knockout

Spider-man - Black Cat, Jackpot, Electro (and allegedly the new Ultimate Spiderman, but we haven't actually seen that in print yet)

 

I can probably name more, but those are off the top of my head (from books I read).

 

And that's just focusing on the actual heroes/villains too and not mentioning their various Contacts or DNPC's.

 

I left out "closeted" characters like Wonder Woman or Power Girl that have "wink, nod" moments to hint at alternate sexualities without the writers ever coming out and just saying it... but that's another issue...

 

Black Cat is gay now? I guess all the guys at Rule 34 have achieved some sort of victory...

[Bloodstone]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Black Cat is gay now?

 

No, she's bisexual

[Greywind]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

That means she has the hots for Spider-Man but nothing for Peter.

[Ravor]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

I don't know, on one hand I guess that I wouldn't mind new characters that happened to be gay or bisexual or whatever else but retconning existing characters would royally upset me.

 

The only quible that I really have with the idea is the vibe that I get from a few posts in this thread that suggest that being homosexual should be worth actual points over being hetrosexual in a setting that quite frankly, whatever stigma that might exist in the real world happens off screen if at all.

[Karmakaze]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

The only quible that I really have with the idea is the vibe that I get from a few posts in this thread that suggest that being homosexual should be worth actual points over being hetrosexual in a setting that quite frankly' date=' whatever stigma that might exist in the real world happens off screen if at all.[/quote']

 

Depending on the game settings, I'd allow it as a Social Complication.

[phoenix240]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

I don't know' date=' on one hand I guess that I wouldn't mind [b']new [/b]characters that happened to be gay or bisexual or whatever else but retconning existing characters would royally upset me.

 

The only quible that I really have with the idea is the vibe that I get from a few posts in this thread that suggest that being homosexual should be worth actual points over being hetrosexual in a setting that quite frankly, whatever stigma that might exist in the real world happens off screen if at all.

 

I'd say that would vary from game to game. In some of mine it would be worth points. To the "story hook" approach to Disadvantage/Complications if a player took a disad based on their character's orientation then they may want it to be an issue in the game.

[phoenix240]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

I don't know' date=' on one hand I guess that I wouldn't mind [b']new [/b]characters that happened to be gay or bisexual or whatever else but retconning existing characters would royally upset me.

 

What if that character's orientation hadn't been stated one way or the other?

[Ravor]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Hmm, "outing" one of the blank slate NPCs? A bit of a grey area I suppose, my gut reaction is that I would rather tread carefully so as to not interfer with people's internal vision of them, I imagine that it would be jarring if a character's NPC lover suddenly had his/her sexual preference stated and it didn't match with the campaign. (Sure, I understand Rule Zero and all, but I know it would leave a bad taste in my mouth if it happened to me.) However, given the shear number of NPC writeups over the years I see it as probably being unavoidable in a pratical sense.

 

And yeah, I agree that in some settings being homosexual would be an issue worth points, I just don't believe that it should be in most Supers as I'm of the (possibly incorrect) mindset that once you introduce beings that can fly, breathe fire, and read/control minds the average bigot will have a much bigger and better target than most current real world targets. I think Shadowrun said it best with "Who cares what color of skin your nieghbor has when that THING over there is ten feet tall and has horns?"

[McCoy]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Context, context, context.

 

In a Golden Age campaign I would have no trouble giving complication points to characters who were Gay, female, non-white, non-Christian, German or Italian surname, or spoke with an accent. Campaigner in contemporary America, not so much.

 

Might still give points for complications like flamboyantly Gay or Closeted Gay.

[Ravor]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

I agree wholeheartly IF being 'X' is an issue in the setting then it is worth points, the problem is that the vibe I was getting didn't include that context.

 

As an example it's my opinion that being flamboyantly anything should be worth points in a campaign with serious tones and that keeping a secret is still "merely" keeping a secret whether it is about your sexuality or some other tidbit you are willing to take steps to keep people from discovering and should be worth the same points.

 

 

Now, on the other hand, if you are playing in a setting where being homosexual means imprisionment and/or death then of course it is worth the same number of points as any other secret that would result in the character's confinement/death.

[Mister E]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Hm... If a campaign was set in classic Hell, I might swing the other way.

[Balabanto]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

I tend to agree that in certain historical eras, Gay or Lesbian is worth points. Heck, in the 1950's, I would argue that being an ALIEN is worth just as many points.

[Greywind]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Superman made aliens acceptable. We're still working on the human race.

[Balabanto]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Superman made aliens acceptable. We're still working on the human race.

 

As far as certain eras are concerned, I'm going to have to disagree. In the 1950's, aliens were scary. Superman lived among us, but he still "lived among us." He wasn't "One of us." He was "Disguised as Clark Kent, Mild Mannered Reporter."

 

Bruce Wayne put on a mask and BECAME Batman.

 

But Superman hides behind the facade of Clark Kent.

 

If you believe this doesn't make a difference, you're kidding yourself. The reason why Superman needed Clark Kent is because people were afraid of anything that came from beyond the planet. And you know what? No matter how hard we try to disguise it, sometimes we still are.

[phoenix240]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Superman and Lois Lane made bestality acceptable.

[Greywind]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

As far as certain eras are concerned, I'm going to have to disagree. In the 1950's, aliens were scary. Superman lived among us, but he still "lived among us." He wasn't "One of us." He was "Disguised as Clark Kent, Mild Mannered Reporter."

 

Bruce Wayne put on a mask and BECAME Batman.

 

But Superman hides behind the facade of Clark Kent.

 

If you believe this doesn't make a difference, you're kidding yourself. The reason why Superman needed Clark Kent is because people were afraid of anything that came from beyond the planet. And you know what? No matter how hard we try to disguise it, sometimes we still are.

I disagree. Batman puts on a mask and becomes Bruce Wayne.

 

I would also point out that Superman isn't truly hiding. He needs a life beyond the tights and cape. That is what Clark Kent provides.

 

Superman and Louis Lane made bestality acceptable.

Who is "Louis Lane"?

[Lucius]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Who is "Louis Lane"?

 

It's a little residential street off of Alda Way, between Harde Drive and Mist Place.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is looking for Easy Street

[phoenix240]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

It's a little residential street off of Alda Way, between Harde Drive and Mist Place.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary is looking for Easy Street

 

Whoops... corrected.

[Ravor]

Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Clark Kent doesn't exist to protect Superman from us, he exists to keep Superman sane and able to relate to us mere mortals.

 

However with that said, despite being born on another planet, Superman never really came across to me as repersenting being an "alien", after all he looks exactly like us and has no memories of Krypton, ect. Hell, other then some meaningless fluff the character would be the same if Papa Kent was biten by a radioactive snake and Mama Kent stumbled into a crater and had her genes twisted by the strange influence of Energy Z.

 

Actual "true aliens" remain just as scary post Superman as then were pre Superman.