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Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings


phoenix240
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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Mind you' date=' the cynic in me wonders all the (straight male) readers bemoaning why it wasn't Wonder Woman not because it makes the most sense or encourages character progression but because it would play into their own titillations and fantasies -- that a woman's sexuality isn't for herself but rather for the ogling of men. :P[/quote']

 

I see the :P, but feel the need to adress this anyhow.

 

As a long time Wonder Woman fan, I feel Diana is in an unfavorably unique position. Since she's the only mega well known superheroine, they try to make her appeal to way too many different tastes. Those tastes include those seeking titilation (see damn near any picture of her by Ed Bennes) and those that think she should be a completly verginal crusader, as no man (or woman) is worthy of her (the Red Sonja complex)

 

Cards upfront, I've had a thing for Wonder Woman since I was a little kid. In recent years, the gray eyed, olive skinned, incredibly buff warrior woman that looked like a Greek godess REALLY appealed to me. But I was always okay with the pin up Snow White look too. So yeah, I won't lie, adding bisexuality on top of that all would play into some fantasies of mine. But I have fantasies like that about a lot of fictional chracters. I wouldn't fight to have Power Girl or Mrs Marvel playing for both teams (despit PG having been in a quasi lesbian relationship recently). But I'll go to bat for Diana being lesiban or bisexual based on her background any day of the week.

 

In context of Diana's fictional history, being a lesbian would have made the most sense POST reboot. It's the happiest, least creepy option available while still keeping the whole Paradise Isle setup intact. Of course, it's not what we got, with Johns having her and Superman flirting over in the JL book... and her own book having Amazons as god shagging, man hating, baby murdering rapists instead of enlightened saphic sisters... but that's another rant entierly.

 

Now, prior to the new 52 reboot I would have prefered Diana to be bisexual. It still makes some sense based on the culture she was raised in and avoids stepping on previous tales. Her leaving the island for Steve was pretty well ingrained in the mythology initially, after all. In fact, it makes it's way into every signifigant retelling of her origin, including the excellent Wonder Woman cartoon that Gail Simone wrote. This also plays to the MANY hints they have made over the years, some far more subtle than others. It might not be refeerenced often, but playing BD/SM games with the Holiday Girls and the famous "Why do you think they call it Paradise Island?" quote are parts of the characters persona. And might I add it has been this way since her inception! She was inspired by/written by a pair of bisexual women in a polyamorous relationship with Marston. "Loving Submission" indeed :)

 

Lets be honest, she's kind of a badass Disney Princess type for plenty of people and Steve being her slightly more capable Lois Lane works pretty well for many people. But the implications of her being completly heterosexul are downright depressing. It's seriously creepy stuff when you think about it, especially considering she's on an island of immortal warrior women that worship the godess fo love (amongst others of course). Have you seen what a liftime of repressed sexual energy does to a young woman with super strength!?!?! ;) Honestly, this origin would work best for me if we tie an ascetic element to her Amazon training. Mind you, I'm not saying we need to tie her powers to celibacy... that would almost certainly be seen in the most mysoginistic light possible ;) Just establish that she's celibate up until she leaves the island due to her devotion to the Amazon warriror lifestyle. I really don't want her to be the eternal virgin since I've liked else earth stories where she's a mother. You can even have her suropunded by sisters trying to get with her, but she turns them all down. BAM! Jealous stalker Amazon super villianess once Steve Trevor shows up (and I might point out the new Steve Trevor is a bigger bad ass/asset to the series than the old one ever was. I suspect he will die shortly...)

 

Anyhow, I'm ultimatly ok with her being hetero so long as she leaves the island while she's still young AND is portrayed as a strong woman when she's grown. I'm totally ok with her being akward around guys as a super powered Wonder Girl. It's kinda lame seeing her do the same thing as a grown woman... many of those attemots to make her relatable through relationship drama have been TERRIBLE.

 

- mopeing about with the gay BFFs after being rejected by some random hot doctor she liked (can't rememebr the issue, but could find out)

- Sobbing like a fool in her bed upon seeing lawyer Steve Trevor for the first time after their breakupafter years prior (the Wonder Woman TV show pilot)

- Trying to bang Superman while they are traped in another dimension and being rebuff (yay for Clarks true love I guess, but boo for making Diana look like a tool and the weaker of the two)

- the veritable avatar of truth secretly pining for Bruce Wayne for years and this not long after they decided she doesn;t actually think of Bruce (or Clark) that way. ASo she's been lying to them and herself for some time now.. (Blackest Night)

 

And the Nemesis relationship was terrible in (several) entierly different ways. "Wonder Woman has no Kryptonite, so we decided to make her socially akward." Which I might add I could have totaly dealt with had she not already been off the Island for YEARS at that point. Regardless, these are not the actions of a strong, confident woman. When was the last time we saw somone like Bruce Wayne sobbing over being dumped? I don't mind seeing her more vulnerable and human, but not like that...

 

Sorry, went into quasi rant mode there...

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

I guess there's a mirror image to that one: when female pop stars date male pop stars--particularly if it's a "teen heartthrob" type--their album sales often suffer' date=' because their dating that male pop star destroys the female fan's fantasy that she has a chance to "get with" him. So they often wind up having to deny that they're dating, saying "we're just good friends", etc., in order to avoid losing sales.[/quote']

 

When my wife was a bartender she had to deal with this a lot. She had her ring on, and never denied being married, but didn't talk about it at work. On the rare night I'd stop by (not a fan of bars, especially ones that allow smoking), her tips would always take a nosedive.

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Maybe the real problem, if there is one, is this whole reboot. I mean, I saw no reason to do it, and from everything I've read about it, and the few comics I have read that DC has put out since, it was poorly done and just made things in the DC Universe too..depressing. As far as I can see, most of DC's characters are now jerks at best. If they wanted to revamp the DC Universe, fine, but do it well. Don't erase characters with 70+ years of history, history that made them as cool as they were. I mean, to me, the biggest part of the modern JSA'a appeal was their status as the elder statesmen of the superhero community. These were the guys that Superman and Batman looked up to. That was cool. Then they decided to reboot the whole thing (when it was really Marvel who needed a hard reboot), erase that history and that status, and make all their characters "edgy" and "bad-ass." And for most of DC's characters, that characterization just doesn't work. Oh, and no character from the Wildstorm universe should ever have been integrated into the DCU. The backgrounds of the two universes are just too incompatible. And instead of WS characters acting more like DC characters, it comes off the other way around. If DC really felt the need to relaunch their line, they should have done it more along the lines of their other recent relanch, the Young Justice animated series. Just my two bits.

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

.

We have an in canon fraternal twin brother/sister villain team that are involved in a long standing relationship involving sex magic, demons, bondage gear and, most importantly, EACH OTHER! We have it in print that they are having sex.

 

I'm probably going to regret this, but who are you referring to?

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Regarding Wonder Woman's sexuality, I've always imagined her and the Amazons being chaste. This combined with them being immortal would explain there superstrength.

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Like I said, I'm personally ok with that idea so long as her power isn't directly tied to her virginity.

 

That would almost certainly be considered the worst, most misogynistic and oppressive direction to take the character.

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Like I said, I'm personally ok with that idea so long as her power isn't directly tied to her virginity.

 

That would almost certainly be considered the worst, most misogynistic and oppressive direction to take the character.

 

Which means there are a dozen Rust Age authors champing at the bit to do precisely that.

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Like I said, I'm personally ok with that idea so long as her power isn't directly tied to her virginity.

 

That would almost certainly be considered the worst, most misogynistic and oppressive direction to take the character.

 

A woman is inherently empowered and "wonderful" and it is the defiling touch of a man that renders her imperfect?

 

This is misogyny?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary accuses Lucius Alexander of stealing its schtick

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

 

 

Lets be honest, she's kind of a badass Disney Princess type for plenty of people and Steve being her slightly more capable Lois Lane works pretty well for many people. But the implications of her being completly heterosexul are downright depressing. It's seriously creepy stuff when you think about it, especially considering she's on an island of immortal warrior women that worship the godess fo love (amongst others of course). Have you seen what a liftime of repressed sexual energy does to a young woman with super strength!?!?! ;)

 

 

This is how I interpreted the original Wondie character. She is, by Paradise Island standards, "Queer as a three dollar bill." IOW completely straight. She had plenty of "dates" over the millenia, but nothing was ever quite satisfying. Then Steve Trevor showed up and BAM! "I don't know what ?it? is, but I like it!

 

"Oh, my Baby! I had so hoped you wouldn't be 'like that'!"

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

A woman is inherently empowered and "wonderful" and it is the defiling touch of a man that renders her imperfect?

 

This is misogyny?

 

 

Well, considering sexual violence historically has been a universal weapon against the female sex, yeah, I'd say it IS misogyny. :mad:

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Well' date=' considering sexual violence historically has been a universal weapon against the female sex, yeah, I'd say it IS misogyny. :mad:[/quote']

 

Hm. I wasn't thinking about rape. I already didn't care for the idea of "Female Virginity as Power" and you cast a whole new light on its ugly implications.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary thinks about rape less often than I do.

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Didn't think actually come up in the comic at some point? A friend of mine who's a big Wonder Woman fan mentioned that someone asked an Amazon about their romantic life and her answer was something like "Some choose the path of Sappho, some of Narciss, others of Artemis."

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

A woman is inherently empowered and "wonderful" and it is the defiling touch of a man that renders her imperfect?

 

This is misogyny?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary accuses Lucius Alexander of stealing its schtick

 

It also comes with the implication that a woman's choice to be sexually active is somehow damning. Where men with not just sexually active lives, but multiple partners, are considered superior but the very act of sex diminishes a woman.

 

Add into that Cygnia's point on rape. It become not just misogynistic, but extremely so.

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

I think it diminishes both sexes

 

Oh, it does, there's no doubt that it casts men in a negative light - being destroyers. But given the underlying cultural implication that a sexually active man is superior to other men, despite (or because of depending on your cynicism) his ability to destroy another person, it casts women more negatively. A kinds of victimization culture, where woman actually lose physically, psychologically, and socially due to the act (voluntary or otherwise).

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

What if the person treats women like disposable sex objects, but they also treat men like disposable cannon fodder or otherwise way beneath them? Misanthropism, or just being a narcissistic a-hole?

 

I think sometimes I act like a jerk(we all act like jerks at some point, it's human nature), but if I act like a jerk to someone other than another straight white male, my jerk-ness may be perceived as something other than just "me being a jerk". If I act like a jerk because the other person is someone other than another straight white male, then they're on to something. But if I act like a jerk to everyone, or just because I'm in a jerky mood, then I'm just a jerk. :)

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Re: Alternate Sexualities in Champions and Supers settings

 

Hm' date=' is there anyway to frame the Vow of Chastity particularly as a basis for actual supernatural powers that doesn't come across as offensive?[/quote']

 

Generally - when it's a personal moral or religious code. There are many religions on the planet whose clergy practice chastity for one reason or another.

 

Or, if you've specifically defined and alien or non-current-earth culture where our standards don't apply.

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