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USA 50 Discussion


Egyptoid

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In this Thread: Hashing out ideas, reviews, criticisms,

and "What would you like to see" in the USA-50 books.

 

For those of you who bought the book, please tell us what you saw.

To those who did not, tell us what you would have liked...

 

USA-50 Book of the West is available now. and here. :dyn

 

The North book is on the table now. South is in the future.

Here's the Web Links so you know what we're talking about.

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Re: USA 50 Discussion

 

Lack of discussion aside, I know people have bough the books, cause I've gotten several royalty checks.

 

If anyone bought the book and was disappointed, I'd like to here why.

 

Also what would make the next book better.

In West, there wasn't an "adventure" with a map of a hideout for example.

 

One thing that went into the heroes and villains was ways for almost any GM

with almost any type of campaign to use the material.

 

How should the North book look?

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Re: USA 50 Discussion

 

to Phoenix240: there are an equal number of villains and heroes in each book.

plus there are suggested plot hooks for using the heroes in your campaign as alternates.

such as if your hero group is based in Chicago, they may need a local guide if they follow some clues to Montana.

 

 

to Hermit: You were there for the original discussions! you know we didnt over-do the regional things.

there are homages to be sure but (just one example) the Idaho hero has no potato-related powers or skills at all

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Re: USA 50 Discussion

 

to Phoenix240: there are an equal number of villains and heroes in each book.

plus there are suggested plot hooks for using the heroes in your campaign as alternates.

such as if your hero group is based in Chicago, they may need a local guide if they follow some clues to Montana.

 

 

to Hermit: You were there for the original discussions! you know we didnt over-do the regional things.

there are homages to be sure but (just one example) the Idaho hero has no potato-related powers or skills at all

 

 

I was. :) And yeah, glad to see that's still being avoided then.

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Re: USA 50 Discussion

 

to Phoenix240: there are an equal number of villains and heroes in each book.

plus there are suggested plot hooks for using the heroes in your campaign as alternates.

such as if your hero group is based in Chicago, they may need a local guide if they follow some clues to Montana.

 

That does bump the book up a bit. Thanks

 

to Hermit: You were there for the original discussions! you know we didnt over-do the regional things.

there are homages to be sure but (just one example) the Idaho hero has no potato-related powers or skills at all

 

Whats the fun in no stereotypes? :D

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Re: USA 50 Discussion

 

I bought the Book of the West, both in PDF and hardcopy (simultaneously, as I often do for HERO products). I was disappointed. I found the book very difficult to read, simply from a layout perspective. Some character description sections are missing for some characters. The writeups are formatted in a way that is very inconsistent. I found all this made the book very difficult to use.

 

Here's an example: Estrella (pages 28-29) has powers written up in a wide variety of ways. Her Luck power is written up in a way similar to the way DOJ does it: "Fortune Favored: Luck 2d6" (i.e. "Flavor Name of Power: Game Mechanics"). But many of the powers are written up without the flavor name.

 

And sometimes it's really necessary. She also has a power that is written up like this: "To 33' North, 44' West: Teleportation: Floating Fixed Location (1 Locations)." A little Google work reveals that 33 degrees north, 44 degrees west is the latitude/longitude of Roswell, NM, and it would probably be possible to guess that from the main text that follows the character sheet, but why should you have to? And the power seems to be written up wrong: if it is really always to 33 degrees north, 44 degrees west, then that is a fixed location (1 point), not a floating fixed location (5 points). And the teleportation power that this is written up as a fixed location for appears only in a sample VPP power. This may be legal under 6E, I honestly don't know, but it is certainly confusing. And this floating fixed location is her **first listed power.** Furthermore, the teleportation power in the VPP is written up as teleportation 17m, x17 Non-Combat, 32 Active Points; by my understanding there is no way to have a x17 non-combat multiple; this should be written up as teleportation 17m, x16 non-combat, 32 active points. That would mean that she would be able to teleport 272 meters non-combat, but the VPP limitation states that she can use her VPP within 666 miles of Roswell, and her teleportation only within 504 miles from Roswell; this suggests that she should be able to teleport the 504 miles to Roswell, which she obviously can't. It's a legal writeup that only allows her to teleport within 504 miles from Roswell, but why can she use other powers further away? In short, it seems like the author's intent was not met here, but I can't really tell for sure what the author's intent was.

 

Other powers are also written up in a confusing way. For instance, her Flash Defense has no descriptive flavor text, and has the limitation "Only in Hero ID (-1/4)". Her Resistant Protection has the flavor text "Armor-Suit," grants her resistant Mental Defense and Power Defense, and has the limitation "Only in Costumed Identity (-1/4)." Is this the same limitation as her Only in Hero ID? The main text provides no explanation of either power; it would appear from this that she wears an armor-suit when in her hero/costumed identity (i.e. that it is something physical, more like a focus - but somehow grants her both mental defense and power defense), and that the suit also grants her flash defense. But I really have no idea; it could be that her "armor suit" is some kind of light energy that appears when she goes into hero ID (arguably more consistent with the resistant mental and power defense), and her flash defense is also a byproduct of that. I'm not quibbling with the mechanics - based on SFX "only in hero id" could be either a physical suit that is hard to remove, or something else that appears when she makes her change - but the writeup gives no clue of the SFX, and having "only in costumed ID" for some powers and "only in hero ID" for others adds to the confusion.

 

Her "appearance" section gives nothing other than height/weight/hair/eyes. That's fine, I guess, but other writeups have more details, as well as information about costume, civilian clothes, etc. Some of that information is provided for Estrella in her "Origin-History" section ("She adopted a costume based on the loud yellow flag of her new home state") but not much. At least there's a picture. Some writeups have a "tactics" section; others don't, and Estrella is one of those that doesn't. In DOJ books the "tactics" section is usually a "powers and tactics" section that explain the basic nature of the powers; that would have been helpful in the case of Estrella to avoid the kind of confusion I mentioned with respect to the "only in hero ID" issue. The "powers" aspect would have been helpful for many of the writeups, in fact. And then on some of the writeups, the "tactics" section provides useful information about powers, but little about tactics. It appears most of the hero writeups have an associated quote, but the place where they appear is inconsistent from one to the next. In Estrella's case the quote is in Spanish. I appreciate that Spanish may be her first language, but it is not mine: a translation would have been useful. In addition, the text of the one text section that we have for Estrella really needs some editing. For example, the second paragraph, which is eight lines long, is one sentence with no punctuation and contains at least three typos.

 

I don't mean to pick on Estrella; I just picked her at random. I found similar problems in other writeups. In addition, I just found the font of the book hard to read: it is very small. But on many pages there is a lot of blank white space. That doesn't compute for me.

 

This is all very disappointing because while I did not follow the USA-50 thread on the hero boards, I really like the 50-state team concept, and I think there is probably a very interesting gaming universe (or a portion thereof) behind these characters. But while some of the character concepts jumped out at me (Captain California, Wild-Catter, Hanford FX (radioactive wasp swarm = awesome)), the layout of this book really interferes with my ability to enjoy the setting and the character concepts. It was simply too hard to figure out how a particular character might fit into a setting with homebrew characters, or even how it might relate to other USA-50 characters, because of the layout and formatting choices that were made. But I really think there are some interesting characters here: for example, as I was dissecting Estrella for this post, I really thought more and more about what an interesting character she is, how she could be used, etc. But to be brutally honest, there are a lot of character writeups out there to be had; if I'm going to think this hard about how a character is supposed to be used, I might as well write it up myself.

 

My bottom line: I will not buy another book in the USA-50 series without having a chance to review the product at my FLGS to be sure that there are significant improvements to the layout and editing. Sorry to be harsh.

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Re: USA 50 Discussion

 

I concur with Oddhat in many respects. However, my issues with the book go beyond this.

 

The characters in the book are neither balanced, playable, nor make a great deal of sense. If you inserted player characters into this universe, you would have to come up with some truly complicated designs to get them to work. The world was entirely concept driven, which is a great idea until you realize that all PC's start on the same number of points, and may have to create some really broken constructs to fit into the world.

 

Some of the concepts weren't entirely comprehensible, as Oddhat also mentioned. In fact, most of these people shouldn't even be on the same team. Threats that would challenge Captain California would massacre half the other heroes there. They don't have powers that shore up each other's weaknesses, they don't work well together as a team, and the concept to me seems like it needs to be rethought, rebooted, and republished before it gets out of the box.

 

Sorry, guys, but this one just did not do it for me.

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Re: USA 50 Discussion

 

>>>> I concur with Oddhat in many respects. However, my issues with the book go beyond this.

The words of Oddhat seem unavailable to me. I cannot imagine him reading anything I wrote, much less commenting up on it. Where did this take place ?

 

 

>>>>>The characters in the book are neither balanced, playable, nor make a great deal of sense. If you inserted player characters into this universe,

So, your group played them and they didn't work, Or you surmise they don't work from just an armchair reading ?

 

 

>>> you would have to come up with some truly complicated designs to get them to work. The world was entirely concept driven, which is a great idea until

Plus, please define your term "work" in this context.

 

 

>>>you realize that all PC's start on the same number of points, and may have to create some really broken constructs to fit into the world.

All PCs have the same number of points ? I suppose in many games they do. Not all everywhere. Are the USA5O all intended to be PCs ?

Nowhere is the main thrust stated that a GM must let players use the 50 as their characters, that is but one of the many options open;

There is a large suggestion area on ways to use the 50 as NPCs or local assistant heroes, or even villains, such as a "civil war" option.

I'm not sure about your broken constructs sentence.

 

>>>>Some of the concepts weren't entirely comprehensible, as Oddhat also mentioned. In fact, most of these people shouldn't even be on the same team.

Concepts? well that's a subjective opinion. Some people like Batman, some people like Deadman.

Again, I am not familiar with the writings of Oddhat. Not on the same team? what like Hulk and Wasp in Avengers? or like Green Arrow and Plastic in JLA ?

Was the "same team" remark a moral, tactical, or taste-oriented comment?

Also on the concept thing, few of these characters can be expressed simply, as in "a speedster based on ice powers"

Again, there are just as many villains in the books.

 

 

>>>> Threats that would challenge Captain California would massacre half the other heroes there. They don't have powers that shore up each other's weaknesses,

How about this: Threats that would challenge Superman or Thor would massacre Green Arrow or Hawkeye.

Having powers that shore up weaknesses to me seems like either subjective opinion or an opportunity for creative tactics.

 

 

>>>>they don't work well together as a team, and the concept to me seems like it needs to be rethought, rebooted, and republished before it gets out of the box.

So you've played a lot of Champions, and also played the USA-50, and that's how you made this conclusion ?

I agree with you on the need for polishing, but the rest of your statement seems painted on with a big broad brush, actually maybe more like a roller.

 

>>>>Sorry, guys, but this one just did not do it for me.

Again, some people read the Avengers, others read BPRD. Both books work.

I said at the beginning saying It has Teh Sukk isnt a valid criticism, since some people may like what we hate, and vice versa.

The USA50 is what you make of it. The author will not at all be offended if you steal parts you do like,

file off the serial numbers, and use bits of it in your campaign. I notice you didnt mention the villains at all.

 

One of the first things acknowledged in the book is the "given" that a Big Book of All Heroes is well nigh useless in the typical Champions game, since the player characters are the usual heroes,

and so neither the players nor the GM needs 50 more. This is covered in the book, and so other ways to view the material than "immediately integrate all of these new champions" are out there.

 

I accept the criticisms of your posting, but I must hope you read the connecting material, the villains or other parts beyond the mere statistics & powers.

 

=========

 

Her Luck power is written up in a way similar to the way DOJ does it: "Fortune Favored: Luck 2d6" (i.e. "Flavor Name of Power: Game Mechanics"). But many of the powers are written up without the flavor name.

 

And sometimes it's really necessary. She also has a power that is written up like this: "To 33' North, 44' West: Teleportation: Floating Fixed Location (1 Locations)." A little Google work reveals that 33 degrees north, 44 degrees west is the latitude/longitude of Roswell, NM, and it would probably be possible to guess that from the main text that follows the character sheet, but why should you have to?

Because you had the joy of discovery. You figured it out on your own. Plus, I want to write up powers like no one else.

I've had it up to here with power descriptions like "Energy Beam, then Extended Beam, then Powerful Beam" and "Low-Cost Beam" or worse yet "Quadrobenium Armor, Quadrobenium Teleport, Quadrobenium Beam, Quadrobenium Radar" I want my power descriptions to not be run of the mill if possible.

 

And the power seems to be written up wrong: if it is really always to 33 degrees north, 44 degrees west, then that is a fixed location (1 point), not a floating fixed location (5 points). And the teleportation power that this is written up as a fixed location for appears only in a sample VPP power. This may be legal under 6E, I honestly don't know, but it is certainly confusing.

She may teleport anywhere within Roswell New Mexico, and within 504 miles of there.. yes it could be clarified

 

And this floating fixed location is her **first listed power.** Furthermore, the teleportation power in the VPP is written up as teleportation 17m, x17 Non-Combat, 32 Active Points; by my understanding there is no way to have a x17 non-combat multiple; this should be written up as teleportation 17m, x16 non-combat, 32 active points. That would mean that she would be able to teleport 272 meters non-combat, but the VPP limitation states that she can use her VPP within 666 miles of Roswell, and her teleportation only within 504 miles from Roswell; this suggests that she should be able to teleport the 504 miles to Roswell, which she obviously can't. It's a legal writeup that only allows her to teleport within 504 miles from Roswell, but why can she use other powers further away? In short, it seems like the author's intent was not met here, but I can't really tell for sure what the author's intent was.

She can use teleport the normal tactical way in and around New Mexico, (the 504 radius) but she can always teleport BACK TO Roswell; even if kidnapped to Cuba.

And yes it does take a bit of tinkering to make it work in 5th edition..

 

 

Her "appearance" ....information is provided for Estrella in her "Origin-History" section ("She adopted a costume based on the loud yellow flag of her new home state") but not much. At least there's a picture. Some writeups have a "tactics" section; others don't, and Estrella is one of those that doesn't. In DOJ books the "tactics" section is usually a "powers and tactics" section that explain the basic nature o...Estrella really needs some editing. For example, the second paragraph, which is eight lines long, is one sentence with no punctuation and contains at least three typos.

No, no, no that's how Latino people type. . . . . Just kidding. Yes it could be better.

 

I will not buy another book in the USA-50 series without having a chance to review the product at my FLGS to be sure that there are significant improvements to the layout and editing.

I am not wealthy, and it takes a large cash layout to get a book to your shelves that way. The online way is the way for now until the economy turns around.

 

 

... found similar problems in other writeups. In addition, I just found the font of the book hard to read: it is very small. ...

My only defense for that is I am not allowed to let my book design look like a champions book's design in any way.

Plus I was instructed to keep all powers together, all skills together etc, where possible.

 

It was simply too hard to figure out how a particular character might fit into a setting.... because of the layout and formatting choices that were made

I have no idea what that criticism means. The other layout suggestions are valid, but the work is subject to constraints.

 

 

But to be brutally honest, there are a lot of character writeups out there to be had; if I'm going to think this hard about how a character is supposed to be used, I might as well write it up myself.

If you are serious, then take any of the upcoming characters, North and South, and re-write them in a way you find palatable. The website is public, and the future is not set in stone yet.

Do the layout and flavor text in a fashion that suits you. We can see what others think.

The USA50 was from the beginning a group project. But when it came down to actual work and money, very few people showed up. But the hope and invitation is still open.

 

Plus another thought: The USA50 is assumed to be like a comic book roster,

not a typical champions team book.

Note, there is little if any emotional content here.

None of this reply is argumentative, its just opinions.

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Re: USA 50 Discussion

 

I will not buy another book in the USA-50 series without having a chance to review the product at my FLGS to be sure that there are significant improvements to the layout and editing.

I am not wealthy, and it takes a large cash layout to get a book to your shelves that way. The online way is the way for now until the economy turns around.

Sorry to hear that. I would have liked to buy another product in this line.

 

It was simply too hard to figure out how a particular character might fit into a setting.... because of the layout and formatting choices that were made

I have no idea what that criticism means. The other layout suggestions are valid, but the work is subject to constraints.

 

 

But to be brutally honest, there are a lot of character writeups out there to be had; if I'm going to think this hard about how a character is supposed to be used, I might as well write it up myself.

If you are serious, then take any of the upcoming characters, North and South, and re-write them in a way you find palatable. The website is public, and the future is not set in stone yet.

Do the layout and flavor text in a fashion that suits you. We can see what others think.

The USA50 was from the beginning a group project. But when it came down to actual work and money, very few people showed up. But the hope and invitation is still open.

I simply don't have time for that. I have a full-time, 50+ hour/week job, a wife, and three kids; gaming is a hobby for me, and a hobby that gets the short end of the stick a lot of the time. All that may be true for you as well, and I really don't mean to suggest with my comments that I would have been able to do better in creating characters, laying out a book, etc. I cannot and/or would not take the time and effort to do that. But others can and have, and their books are much more useful TO ME than the Book of the West is. I explained the reasons why above. I don't mean to pile on; I really liked parts of the book (and the issues identified by Balabanto were, for the most part, not issues for me).

 

I don't intend to post further on this topic unless invited to do so.

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Re: USA 50 Discussion

 

>>>> Threats that would challenge Captain California would massacre half the other heroes there. They don't have powers that shore up each other's weaknesses' date=' [/i']

How about this: Threats that would challenge Superman or Thor would massacre Green Arrow or Hawkeye.

Having powers that shore up weaknesses to me seems like either subjective opinion or an opportunity for creative tactics.

 

Obviously, diverse sets and power levels are necessary for a book like this. I agree with you that a fifty person team is unlikely to all be at the same power level. However, the author can present information on what characters work well with each other based on their power levels and other factors. It may be reasonable to include information stating that Capitan California generally works alone, but that Silverline, Estrella, and Wind-Talker do team up frequently, presuming the latter three’s power levels are complimentary. Homogeneity among power levels isn’t necessarily a good thing for a book like this, as you point out, but being aware of who works well with whom in a team environment is a necessity in this genre.

 

In addition, suggestions on how to increase or decrease the threat level of individual characters is welcome as well.

 

 

Because you had the joy of discovery. You figured it out on your own. Plus, I want to write up powers like no one else.

 

If I want to have the joy of solving a puzzle, I’ll go and buy a Will Shortz book. I don’t buy RPG books to learn about geography. Presenting the power like this is, I feel, a disservice to the consumer.

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Re: USA 50 Discussion

 

Sorry to hear that. I would have liked to buy another product in this line.

 

 

I simply don't have time for that. I have a full-time, 50+ hour/week job, a wife, and three kids; gaming is a hobby for me, and a hobby that gets the short end of the stick a lot of the time. All that may be true for you as well, and I really don't mean to suggest with my comments that I would have been able to do better in creating characters, laying out a book, etc. I cannot and/or would not take the time and effort to do that. But others can and have, and their books are much more useful TO ME than the Book of the West is. I explained the reasons why above. I don't mean to pile on; I really liked parts of the book (and the issues identified by Balabanto were, for the most part, not issues for me).

 

I don't intend to post further on this topic unless invited to do so.

 

Well, I work 60-70 hours a week, and still have time to write for Blackwyrm, write novels, and not get much sleep. I was trying to avoid commentary on this particular book altogether. I do apologize for the misquote. That was my bad.

 

The only reason I felt inclined to comment was this. I'm also a freelance game designer. I'm anal retentive and pretty thorough. I stand behind my products and do my best to market them. I get good reviews. I try VERY hard to make sure that players have a good time when they play my stuff, and provide the GM with as many options as I can possibly dream up in the allotted space. Dave and Jason are very good to me, (Thanks, Dave and Jason) and I appreciate everything they do for me. They find me artists and layout folks (Thanks, Bunneh), and do what they do.

 

I wasn't trying to be a jackass. I was trying to make the next product better. It doesn't always come across that way, and I apologize if it does.

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