Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

[Christopher]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Of course' date=' the "winner" of said war says that information is preserved because Hawking Radiation (Has that ever actually been proven or is it just another make-believe factor?) serves to transmit the information from the black hole to the rest of the universe.[/quote']

Hawkins devised it to see if Black Holes follow the laws of Entropy. When it exist they do. If not, they don't (at least not on that way). That's all it is for and all it was ever ment for.

Hawkins Radiation.

 

As for the bit about Hawking Radiation' date=' that is my entire point, I find it rather annoying that the same people who simply make things up in order to fit observed reality into their theories have the gall to rule certain things as simply impossible. Especially when we supposedly have observed things that amount to FTL reactions.[/quote']

You talk about the same Hawking that (one the set of Star Trek) pointed to the warp core and said "I am workign on it"?

The same Hawking that convinced the church to accept the Big Bang theroy and but recently tries to disproove the Big bang theory (acconding to his book "A brief history of time").

 

Seriously Hawking is the absolute opposite of an arogant scientist.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Speaking about Black Holes (temporally threadjack ), has anybody computed the Roche Limit for the stars orbiting the Supermassive Black Hole in the Milky Way's core? I am curious how close some of those stars might be to being torn apart...

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

No' date=' what I'm actually mocking is the idea that [b']any[/b] theory should be considered to be "the one true way" and whenever anything is observed that doesn't fit within the framework of said theories then instead of taking even the briefest of looks at our base assumptions we instead simply make up imaginary new factors.

 

"Science damn them! OUR answer to the Great Question is the only one based on real science! ;)"

[Cancer]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Speaking about Black Holes (temporally threadjack )' date=' has anybody computed the [u']Roche Limit[/u] for the stars orbiting the Supermassive Black Hole in the Milky Way's core? I am curious how close some of those stars might be to being torn apart...

 

I haven't done the calculation, but that process you describe happens all the time. What do you think feeds the accretion disk into the black hole?

[Old Man]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

I can think of metric buttloads of things

 

You ivory tower types, always trying to confuse the issue with your scientific technojargon.

[Querysphinx]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

I have rarely met or heard from any scientist who makes stuff up just to make the universe fit the model. Generally what they do is find out where the math deviates from the observation and postulate a cause. That's how we found neutrinos. Our understanding of them started off with a discrepancy in accounting, which led to the postulation of a neutrino particle, which led to experiments, which finally located them.

[Gnaskar]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

In short' date=' we know Relativity is true[/quote']

 

We know that Relativity works as a model for the movement of planetary bodies and high speed vehicles (currently just for the orbital velocity definition of "high speed").

[SteveZilla]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

I haven't done the calculation' date=' but that process you describe happens all the time. What do you think feeds the accretion disk into the black hole?[/quote']

 

Oh, I am aware of that. I was just wondering how likely it is for one of those stars to be torn apart while we are watching.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

I can think of metric buttloads of things...

 

Is that anything like a SWAG*? (Meaning #9)

 

[Cancer]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Oh' date=' I am aware of that. I was just wondering how likely it is for one of those stars to be torn apart [u']while we are watching.[/u]

 

Maybe we have in other galaxies, but not in our own. I think the event would take hours, and we aren't monitoring Sgr A* anything like continuously, except perhaps in the gamma rays. Certainly not in visible light, where continuous monitoring is easy; there's 30 magnitudes of extinction between here and there, and no visible radiation gets through that.

[Ravor]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Scientists don't make things up or at the very least slant the data to fit in their own view of the universe? Got two words for you; "Climate Gate".

[Tom Carman]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Scientists don't make things up or at the very least slant the data to fit in their own view of the universe? Got two words for you; "Climate Gate".

 

In which there was a bit of the latter and none of the former.

 

From FactCheck.org:

 

Summary

 

In late November 2009, more than 1,000 e-mails between scientists at the Climate Research Unit of the U.K.’s University of East Anglia were stolen and made public by an as-yet-unnamed hacker. Climate skeptics are claiming that they show scientific misconduct that amounts to the complete fabrication of man-made global warming. We find that to be unfounded:

 

* The messages, which span 13 years, show a few scientists in a bad light, being rude or dismissive. An investigation is underway, but there’s still plenty of evidence that the earth is getting warmer and that humans are largely responsible.

* Some critics say the e-mails negate the conclusions of a 2007 report by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, but the IPCC report relied on data from a large number of sources, of which CRU was only one.

* E-mails being cited as "smoking guns" have been misrepresented. For instance, one e-mail that refers to "hiding the decline" isn’t talking about a decline in actual temperatures as measured at weather stations. These have continued to rise, and 2009 may turn out to be the fifth warmest year ever recorded. The "decline" actually refers to a problem with recent data from tree rings.

[McCoy]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Scientists don't make things up or at the very least slant the data to fit in their own view of the universe? Got two words for you; "Climate Gate".

Yes, the "blame the victim" mentality on that was very slanted and largely made up, but I haven't heard that anyone who claimed "Climate Gate" proved anything was a scientist. Could you provide examples?

[Old Man]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

"Climategate" actually went pretty far toward disproving any sort of climate scientist conspiracy. These felons got thirteen years' worth of emails from hundreds of scientists and came up with one email that says "hide the decline" in a different context? Thanks for playing.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

"Climategate" actually went pretty far toward disproving any sort of climate scientist conspiracy. These felons got thirteen years' worth of emails from hundreds of scientists and came up with one email that says "hide the decline" in a different context? Thanks for playing.

 

Yet the unwashed masses are still regurgitating that one email as "PROOF THAT GLOBAL WARMING IS NOT TRUE YOU @$#% LIBTARD!" :groan:

[Ravor]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Actually I'm far more concerned with the idea of scientists pining over the idea of wishing to blacklist people with opposing views, although I do find it odd that people aren't concerned when the supposedly "pure as the wind driven snow" group of warmists (as opposed to the evil and corupt deniers who are merely shills of Big Oil) are trying to hide anything, whether it is the size of treerings or gobal temps.

 

All kidding aside, I'm personally extremely sceptical of anyone playing Chicken Little, after all in my lifetime we were warned of "Gobal Cooling", "The Population Bomb", "The Death of the Oceans", "Mass Starvation in the First World", "Y2K", "Super Huricanes destroying the Gulf States every couple of months", just to name a few. Then the "man caused Global Warming" crowd has to be able to explain to me why I should ignore the previous global climate shifts in favor of their theories, as well as shed the bagage of the "watermelons" who all seem to want the common man to live by one set of rules while the elites get to live by another.

 

Bottom line is, in the area where my family has lived for six generations we've seen the local weather come and go in cycles of ~40 years with a subcycle of ~15 years or so, I make a major portion of my living off the land and thus far haven't seen any evidence that causes me to fear for my family's wellfare.

[Old Man]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Anyway, I found an interesting article that talks about possible non-error-related explanations for the result. In a nutshell the high energy of the collision may be ejecting the neutrinos out of the brane where they can travel at supraluminal speeds for a brief time, before they fall back in and become subject to relativity again.

 

http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/million_times_speed_light-83202

[Christopher]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Anyway, I found an interesting article that talks about possible non-error-related explanations for the result. In a nutshell the high energy of the collision may be ejecting the neutrinos out of the brane where they can travel at supraluminal speeds for a brief time, before they fall back in and become subject to relativity again.

 

http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/million_times_speed_light-83202

So.... could that be the hyperspace-dimension we were lookin for?

[Ravor]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Sounds more like a stutterwarp drive to me.

[Christopher]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Sounds more like a stutterwarp drive to me.

It isn't when we can make the ship stay in that dimenesion for some time.

[Ravor]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Very true, assuming of course that the short emersion time into branespace is an engineering problem that can be solved and not a physical limitation.

[McCoy]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

All kidding aside' date=' I'm personally extremely sceptical of [b']anyone[/b] playing Chicken Little, after all in my lifetime we were warned of "Gobal Cooling",

Prediction based on Milankovitch cycles which probably would have been correct if not for ACC.

 

"The Population Bomb"' date=' [/quote']

Still a threat.

 

"The Death of the Oceans"' date=' [/quote']

Still ongoing.

 

"Mass Starvation in the First World"' date=' [/quote']

Still a real possibility. Check food prices six months from now.

 

"Y2K"' date=' [/quote']

That one I'll give you, media hoax.

 

"Super Huricanes destroying the Gulf States every couple of months"' date=' [/quote']

 

Then the "man caused Global Warming" crowd has to be able to explain to me why I should ignore the previous global climate shifts in favor of their theories' date=' [/quote']

OK, going to ask you to be more specific, are we talking the postwar cooling that very neatly corresponded with atmospheric nuclear testing?

 

We need a "save draft" function here!

[SteveZilla]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Anyway, I found an interesting article that talks about possible non-error-related explanations for the result. In a nutshell the high energy of the collision may be ejecting the neutrinos out of the brane where they can travel at supraluminal speeds for a brief time, before they fall back in and become subject to relativity again.

 

http://www.science20.com/alpha_meme/million_times_speed_light-83202

 

Here's a crazy thought. A boat plowing through the water at a slow speed takes a certain amount of energy, and due to drag would seem to take an escalating amount of energy as speed increases linearly. Like a displacement hull would. If the water and the interaction with the boat are not well understood (like no knowledge of planing hulls), a person might not realize that at some velocity, the boat "goes up on plane" and the energy requirements (drag) decrease substantially. Could a similar (subatomic) effect be happening, where some particles have "gone up on plane", or "gone out of the brane" until they slow below their critical "out of brane" speed? [/End crazy comparison between boats and neutrinos]

[Ravor]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Ok ... lets try this again, you're right, we really need a "save draft" fuction.

 

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( 1 ) Global Cooling

 

Nah, the predictions I was referring to were the ones where mankind was pumping so much junk into our atmosphere that we were going to block enough solar radition that global temps would begin to plummet resulting in another great ice age and possibly cumulating in a worst case of a snowball Earth. Pretty much the same rubbish we are being told now, only in reverse.

 

( 2 ) Population Bomb

 

Has my memory failed me and my brain finally finished turning into jello? As I recall the population bomb was set to explode over thirty years ago. Did I miss the massive world wide birth control program and other "negative population growth" measures that was necessary to prevent massive food shortages and a diedown if not actual extiction.

 

( 3 ) The Death of the Oceans

 

Yet the last time I checked, 1998 came and went and the planet is still spinning 'round and 'round.

 

( 4 ) Mass starvation in the First World

 

Of course it is, and in six months when sociality hasn't devolved into cannibalism and the people of the First World are still able to feed themselves I'm sure that we'll still be told that mass starvation in the First World is a "very real possibility" and that we should check the price of food in "x months" as our civilazation is so very fragile and we are hovering on the brink of death and distruction at every waking moment.

 

( 5 ) Climate Shifts

 

Nothing so pedestrian I'm afraid, I'm talking about the near consistant shifts of climate that this tiny little speck of dirt has been experiencing since before the days of yore. The medieval warming period, the great ice ages, the north and south pole supposedly making an excellant tropical vacation spot, ect. As I've said, I make a large portion of my living off the land, so legitimate changes in the climate are very much a concern of mine, which is perhaps why I'm as disappointed as I am in the enviromental movement for letting the watermelons rise among them.

 

---

 

You know, the main problem I have with the various Chicken Littles of the world is that they have been screaming dire warning of all the horrible ways we are going to die unless we subugate ourselves and provide the correct sacriface as foretold by the latest ritual casting of the bones ever since humanity first stood up on both legs and gazed out into the night.

[Christopher]

Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Here's a crazy thought. A boat plowing through the water at a slow speed takes a certain amount of energy' date=' and due to drag would seem to take an escalating amount of energy as speed increases linearly. Like a displacement hull would. If the water and the interaction with the boat are not well understood (like no knowledge of planing hulls), a person might not realize that at some velocity, the boat "goes up on plane" and the energy requirements (drag) decrease substantially. Could a similar (subatomic) effect be happening, where some particles have "gone up on plane", or "gone out of the brane" until they slow below their critical "out of brane" speed? [/End crazy comparison between boats and neutrinos']

The real problem is actually that water is can't get out of the way fast enough. But once you know of supercavitation this seeming constant of the medium becomes a non-issue, because you can totally avoid going against the water...