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Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)


Kraven Kor

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Minds do change sometimes.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/skeptic-finds-now-agrees-global-warming-real-142616605.html

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary carries change for a paradigm

 

Yup. Now expect the goalposts to get walked back to "sure global temps are increasing, but we don't know whyyyy". After that it will be walked back to some sort of free market right-to-pollute position, or even a global-warming-is-actually-good-for-you theory.

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Yup. Now expect the goalposts to get walked back to "sure global temps are increasing' date=' but we don't know whyyyy". After that it will be walked back to some sort of free market right-to-pollute position, or even a global-warming-is-actually-good-for-you theory.[/quote']

Actually all of those are already in play, along with "if it is human caused it would do more harm to change" and "even if it is human caused and harmful it's too expensive to change."

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

How about "Your story on Global Cooling/Global Warming/Climate Change has changed three times in the last four decades at least"? and "when some of your models are predicated on a flat world that receives constant sunlight, it becomes difficult to believe the results"?

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Yup. Now expect the goalposts to get walked back to "sure global temps are increasing' date=' but we don't know whyyyy". After that it will be walked back to some sort of free market right-to-pollute position, or even a global-warming-is-actually-good-for-you theory.[/quote']

 

Moscow: "You say 'year around ice free ports' like it's a bad thing."

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

How about "Your story on Global Cooling/Global Warming/Climate Change has changed three times in the last four decades at least"?

 

That's how science works, dude. You post this without irony in a thread about FTL neutrino measurements?

 

and "when some of your models are predicated on a flat world that receives constant sunlight, it becomes difficult to believe the results"?

 

Because no good science has ever come of approximations or simulations, right? All that testing we perform on lab rats and humps tells us nothing about potential effects on humans? Galileo's dropping two balls of different mass off the tower, we learned nothing from that because he didn't work out the partial differential equations to take wind resistance into account?

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Some science, some politics, some religion

 

How about "Your story on Global Cooling/Global Warming/Climate Change has changed three times in the last four decades at least"? and "when some of your models are predicated on a flat world that receives constant sunlight' date=' it becomes difficult to believe the results"?[/quote']

I've never understood this.

 

It's like politicians being called flip-flopers. Yes, if they have the moral conviction of a weather vane and look to the latest polls to see what they have believed their entire life it's bad, but I would like to believe most rational adults arcapablele of changing their minds when they get new information that makes iappropriatete to do so.

 

So I totally Do Not Get It when revising the theory or discarding certain hypotheses is claimed to be a weakness of climate change or evolution. Data did not support the oncoming ice age, was dropped. Or the story changed as far as global dimming or ozone depletion because lots of people worked their donkeys off moving those into the "probem solved" category.

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science and magic

 

Actually all of those are already in play' date=' along with "if it is human caused it would do more harm to change" [/quote']

Actually there is some truth in that one. I don't know if we can feed seven billion people through sustainable agriculture. If we had to switch suddenly a lot of people would die. Of course, our current system is unsustainable, and will hit a hard limit sooner or later. If that happens suddenly, a lot of people will die.

 

The Green Revolution, and 20th century population explosion, probably would not have been possible without the work of Nobel laureate Fritz Haber, who not only invented synthetic fertilizer, but did much groundbreaking work leading to modern chemical pesticides. (These were unintended consequences of his real work, cheap explosives and chemical warfare.)

 

Conventional Wisdom seems to be that before we hit a hard limit with our current system we will pull another technological rabbit out of the hat and have a work-around for whatever problems come up in the future. The apparent belief that

  1. there are an infinite number of rabbits in the hat and
  2. we can pull them out on schedule

seems to me to be incredibly -- faith based.

 

Could happen, seems a long shot on which to, literally, bet the farm.

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Moscow: "You say 'year around ice free ports' like it's a bad thing."

 

Here's an interesting site.

 

THE EXPERIMENT OF DUBIA

 

Dubia's premise is simple enough in theory. But like most collisions between politics and nature, it gets very messy in practice. Suppose we avoid war, plague, and famine, and the world goes democratic and capitalist? That appears to be the dream of President George W. Bush, or, as he's sometimes known, Dubya.

 

But part of Dubya's dream is that oil goes on ruling the world for another generation. Despite all conservation attempts, carbon dioxide levels go on soaring. Too many people burning too much fuel! Poor countries industrializing will offset any efficiency-savings in rich countries.

 

So our grandchildren live in a world with C02 levels double ours, 600-700 ppm. Double ya!

 

That world heats up. Climate zones move north until the poles thaw. Greenland and Antarctica melt. Coastal nations are drowned. In the end, the sea rises some 110 meters. Global hothouse! It's happened before, of course, on this scale, but not in the last 50 million years or so.

 

But once the catastrophe's happened and the survivors replant, and adjust to redwoods at the poles, and farms in Siberia, and jungles on the prairies, and coral seas where great cities once stood... what if they don't change it back? After all, they may argue, why put the Earth through birth-pains TWICE? Double jeopardy! It's climate change, not climate, that's disrupts communities--both biological and political.

 

So... they leave the new world alone, to stabilize. We think of global warming in the short range--the shock of change. But what's on the far side? What would that world be like?

 

I couldn't resist--even though I admit that any climatological projection this long-term and radical is inherently dubious...

 

Dubia.

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Unfortunately, I think a Hothouse Earth would not be quite so warm and inviting. Oceanic acidification will kill off the coral, so there will be no new coral seas. A drastic, rapid warming would probably tax existing ecosystems faster than they could adjust, resulting in a mass extinction event even more severe than the one we're already living through. Desertification will greatly reduce food output in a world that just reached a population of seven billion.

 

The big concern, as I have posted before, is that the warming trend will continue until a tipping point is reached that sets off some feedback loop that kicks the warming into overdrive. The thawing Siberian permafrost could release many tons of methane into the atmosphere. The lack of ice caps could reduce planetary albedo to where significantly more solar energy is absorbed instead of reflected. Rising ocean temps could kill off the plankton that otherwise sink a lot of the carbon out of the atmosphere. If one of these feedback loops starts, all bets are off.

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global warming: worst case

 

The big concern' date=' as I have posted before, is that the warming trend will continue until a tipping point is reached that sets off some feedback loop that kicks the warming into overdrive. The thawing Siberian permafrost could release many tons of methane into the atmosphere. The lack of ice caps could reduce planetary albedo to where significantly more solar energy is absorbed instead of reflected. Rising ocean temps could kill off the plankton that otherwise sink a lot of the carbon out of the atmosphere. [/quote']

Tons of methane clathrate bob to the surface as oceans warm.

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

How about "Your story on Global Cooling/Global Warming/Climate Change has changed three times in the last four decades at least"?

 

That's how science works, dude. You post this without irony in a thread about FTL neutrino measurements?

 

*chuckles* You do realize that you've just made what is perhaps the most damning argument against your side of all don't you Old Man?

 

You see, the problem is this; at each step of the theory of climate change we've been told with much alarm about how we are all going to die unless we drastically change our lifestyle for the worse. I fully expect that in the next several decades after the current theory of man-caused climate change has been "refined" and "adapted" (I.E. Discounted.) based off of new data and understanding there will be a whole new crop of Chicken Littles screaming about some new way in which we are all going to die unless we do 'x'.

 

 

Oh, and before I forget, we should be celebrating the fact that humanity is now seven billion strong!

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

You see, the problem is this; at each step of the theory of climate change we've been told with much alarm about how we are all going to die unless we drastically change our lifestyle for the worse. I fully expect that in the next several decades after the current theory of man-caused climate change has been "refined" and "adapted" (I.E. Discounted.) based off of new data and understanding there will be a whole new crop of Chicken Littles screaming about some new way in which we are all going to die unless we do 'x'.

 

Oh yes, since the science of climate change has now had over three decades to mature, we can just blow off tens of thousands of scientists as "chicken littles". They've never been right about the environment before. Like that ozone hole that was getting bigger and bigger until the ridiculous CFC ban took effect, that was just a coincidence. Or when acid rain was killing all the fish and forests until we forced those outrageously expensive catalytic converters on Detroit, that was surely a mistake. And I'm sure we all yearn for the good old days when we could put lead in our gasoline on purpose. How dare these scientist types tell us things we don't want to hear?

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Oh yes' date=' since the science of climate change has now had over three decades to mature, we can just blow off tens of thousands of scientists as "chicken littles". They've never been right about the environment before. Like that ozone hole that was getting bigger and bigger until the ridiculous CFC ban took effect, that was just a coincidence. Or when acid rain was killing all the fish and forests until we forced those outrageously expensive catalytic converters on Detroit, that was surely a mistake. And I'm sure we all yearn for the good old days when we could put lead in our gasoline [i']on purpose.[/i] How dare these scientist types tell us things we don't want to hear?

 

You missed the part where he *chuckled* at all those silly old scientific warnings. Now that's good refutationing!

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

The big concern' date=' as I have posted before, is that the warming trend will continue until a tipping point is reached that sets off some feedback loop that kicks the warming into overdrive. The thawing Siberian permafrost could release many tons of methane into the atmosphere. The lack of ice caps could reduce planetary albedo to where significantly more solar energy is absorbed instead of reflected. Rising ocean temps could kill off the plankton that otherwise sink a lot of the carbon out of the atmosphere. If one of these feedback loops starts, all bets are off.[/quote']

And in the long run: Oxigen Levels Drop. Everyone dies. (or has to move into Doomed Cities)

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

Oh yes' date=' since the science of climate change has now had over three decades to mature, we can just blow off tens of thousands of scientists as "chicken littles". They've never been right about the environment before. Like that ozone hole that was getting bigger and bigger until the ridiculous CFC ban took effect, that was just a coincidence. Or when acid rain was killing all the fish and forests until we forced those outrageously expensive catalytic converters on Detroit, that was surely a mistake. And I'm sure we all yearn for the good old days when we could put lead in our gasoline [i']on purpose.[/i] How dare these scientist types tell us things we don't want to hear?

Yes, we should always ignore the science by identifying it with the most extreme outliers. After all, Chicken Little has never, ever been right!

 

SEC Investigator Raised Madoff Concerns Years Ago, Was Asked to Look Elsewhere

 

Expert Fired Who Warned Levees Would Burst

 

Bin Laden Determined To Strike In US

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Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN)

 

And in the long run: Oxigen Levels Drop. Everyone dies. (or has to move into Doomed Cities)

Actually the CO2 concentration becomes, um, "toxic" isn't the right word, shall we say "incompatable with human llife" well before the O2 level drops.

 

Get a medium-sized paper bag, breath into it in the classic cure for hiccups and hyperventalation. "Follow yur breath," trying to be aware of it without controlont it. Notice when you start breathing rapidly. There is still plenty of oxygen in the bag, but your lungs and heart have spead up trying to disipate CO2 out of your body.

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