MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

[Lord Liaden]

The Hero System kahuna writing on Hawaiian mythology. Sounds about right.

[Steve Long]

"Big Kahuna Burger? I hear they have some tasty burgers!"

[Steve Long]

 

 

Next I think I'll tackle Hawaiian Mythology. And after that -- who knows? So many fun possibilities!

 

I think after Hawaiian I'll do something fairly short and simple -- maybe Georgian, or Incan, or Malay.

 

After that I'll tackle the last "really big" mythos:  the four chapters' worth of Celtic Mythology. And after that we'll see what I feel like. Probably something non-European, like Oceanic or Canaanite. But that's many months down the road.

[Lord Liaden]

Oooh, Incan! I wrote some Champions stuff riffing on their culture and beliefs, but couldn't find a lot of details. I hope you unearthed things I haven't seen.

 

(My mom was from Peru, so I come by my interest honestly.)

[Steve Long]

Done and done! At long last the Hindu Mythology chapter is finished! Clocking in at just over 70,000 words, it's more than 50% longer than the next largest chapter. It includes an 8,000 word section on Hindu magic.

 

Time to move on to Hawaiian Mythology! "Oh we're goin' to a hukilau...."

[Lord Liaden]

If I may ask, does the Hindu magic section include any sample "spells" or similar game statted abilities? If it does, are there any similar sections for any of the other mythologies?

 

That would be gravy for me.

[Steve Long]

 

 

[D]oes the Hindu magic section include any sample "spells" or similar game statted abilities?

 

Oh yeah, absolutely -- 61 sample spells, to be precise. They're written up as one short descriptive paragraph and then one game info paragraph (rather than getting a "spell template" header like in HSG, for space reasons), but they're in there.

 

 

 

If it does, are there any similar sections for any of the other mythologies?

 

Currently I have completed sections on Australian Aborigine Magic, Finnish Magic, and Slavic (Russian) Magic (each with plenty of sample spells, of course!), and partially completed sections on Egyptian and Norse Magic. Several other mythoi, such as Ainu and Etruscan, have a paragraph or sidebar explaining briefly how magic works and giving vernacular terms for spellcasters and such, but no fully fleshed-out system or spells. And I expect to add to both counts going forward, since there are plenty of mythoi left (I have some books on Hawaiian magic that might yield a system, for example).

 

Once MH is published (with magic systems included), I am considering pulling out all the magic systems and creating a separate book of them, for those who are only interested in that sort of thing. Not sure I'd have enough material to fill a whole hardcopy book, but at the very least I could do it as a PDF. We'll see -- it's hard to make predictions when there's so much work left to do!

 

 

P.S.:  I left out the Chinese and Voodoo mythoi in this discussion, since both get effective coverage in HSG, so I just cross-reference that.

[JmOz]

So how many words total are you looking at?

[Steve Long]

 

 

So how many words total are you looking at?

 

I don't have any reliable way to estimate that yet. On the one hand, I think I'm at best half done with my research, so that might mean it ends up at 800,000-1,000,000 words. OTOH, except for Celtic I've finished all the chapters I expect to be exceptionally long. So even though the remaining chapters may each require a lot of research, they may average a much smaller word count, leading to, say, a 600,000 word book. I don't expect to be able to make a reasonable estimate until I'm much closer to the finish line.

[Zephrosyne]

I have been roleplaying for nearly 30 years.  I can honestly say without any doubt that this is the book that I am looking the most forward to seeing in all of those years.  With all of this teasing, which I--perhaps foolishly--masochistically read, I truly hope that it sees the light of day.

[Steve Long]

Glad to hear it! I'm working hard to get it out into the light of day, and one way or another I'm going to succeed.

[megaplayboy]

Has the Kickstarter success of Strike Force encouraged you to give this another shot there, Steve? I think with the right sort of preview material and maybe some suggestions for cross-platform adaptation, this could be a fairly popular product.

[steriaca]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?I think the most basic questions are:1. How does the god "hear" the prayers of their worshippers?2. How do they go about responding to the petitions of their worshippers? It seems like this could even vary by pantheon and sphere of influence/personality of the individual deities.

1) They just do. It is a "do not pay for it" power.

 

2) That is up to the GM, taking in account the needs of the scenario, the god's personality, how well is the one making the praying is following the path the god chosen for the one praying, ect. Nothing hard and fast.

[Steve Long]

...aaaand done! The Hawaiian Mythology chapter of Mythic Hero is now complete. Clocking in at 28,000 words, it features five gods with character sheets, dozens of others without, a whole mess of heroes, several monsters, and a complete system of Hawaiian magic.

 

Well, OK, to be fair, I have three or four more books I want to read -- but for some damn fool reason I didn't bring them out to the RV along with all the others. So I'll take care of that this summer after I'm back in the house.

 

On to the next chapter: Canaanite Mythology! A somewhat broad and sometimes vague topic, but I think I can handle it. That oughtta be enough to hold me until I'm back in the house, but if not I have books on Incan and Inuit mythology out here too.

[megaplayboy]

Well, the Canaanite pantheon has at least one late-bloomer who hit it big later.

[GhostDancer]

Just found seven library copies of Walther Heissig's The Religions of Mongolia in Michigan, put a hold on one. Thanks, Matt the Bruins!

[intp]

I haven't been following this thread in a number of years, but it looks like the project is coming along.  Any rough idea on a release date for a book or pdf?

[Steve Long]

 

 

Any rough idea on a release date for a book or pdf?

 

Sorry, but I'm afraid not. Even if it remains my primary work focus for the foreseeable future -- and I intend for it to -- there's still a lot of work left. But I'm going to finish it, come Hell* or high water.

 

Fortunately, with the exception of Celtic, the "big" mythoi are all behind me. Most of what I have left is comparatively minor -- though that doesn't mean that I can skimp on the research for any of them. Sometimes even a small mythos requires a lot of reading.

 

Here's what I have left to do, roughly speaking:

 

1. Research and write all the chapters for mythoi I haven't yet covered.

2. Read all my "general" books on mythology. In some cases this will mean skimming through a book, in others I will have to read through reference books one entry at a time looking for obscure gods I've missed somehow. So it'll take awhile.

3. Read all the mythology books I've acquired since I began work that I haven't yet read. This will serve as a way to go back through the book and "double-check" to make sure I've got things right (in a sense, #2 fulfills this purpose as well).

4. At this point, with the manuscript finished (including appendices), I can contemplate running a Kickstarter for the project. Preparing for that will require some work, of course.

5. Getting the artwork and layout done. Then I have to do the Index, which is going to be an absolute nightmare due to all the weird names and words used.

6. Getting the book printed, shipped to me, and then shipped out to KS backers and whatnot.

 

So, like I said, a lot left to do. But I'm having an absolute ball working on this book, and do not intend to stop.

 

*:  Or other underworld of your choice.

[Steve Long]

 

 

Just found seven library copies of Walther Heissig's The Religions of Mongolia in Michigan, put a hold on one.

 

Woot!

 

It took me awhile, but I finally found an affordable copy of that book. Looking forward to diving into it at some point.

[steriaca]

May I ask, will this book cover the Cuthulu Mythos and the Kings of Ediom?

[Steve Long]

 

 

will this book cover the Cuthulu Mythos and the Kings of Ediom? 

 

No. Only real-world mythologies. That includes the mythology of the real-world kingdom of Edom, but that's as close as I get to the CU bad guys named after it.

[Steve Long]

...aaaand done! The Canaanite Mythology chapter of Mythic Hero is finished. It clocked in at a shade over 6,000 words.

 

I had initially intended to move on to Incan Mythology next, but I think I have enough books out here in the RV to stay in the Near East and polish off the Hittite Mythology chapter. Or if not, at least I'll get the foundations laid before I head off to South America.

[Zephrosyne]

First of all, Steve, you're a tease  .  I want this book NOW!!!  Second, how big is this book gonna be (as in pages)?

[PhilFleischmann]

Hi.  Remember me?  I've been away a long time, and I probably wouldn't even have bothered to reply to this thread (I haven't read all 17 pages of it), were it not for the fact that it was this very topic that prompted me to come back to this website.  I was looking for a post I made in the Fantasy Hero threads, called "Stuff to Make up about the Gods".

 

The main concern I would have with a book like this is whether it will be too much like Deities & Demigods from that other system.  IMO, it was a stupid book.  All the gods statted out like characters?  Are we going into combat with these guys?  Meanwhile, all the actual information that would have been useful for the game was missing.  How is this god worshiped?  What does this god want from me?  From his clerics?  From the world?  What are this gods goals and values?  What's the structure and status of the religion?  What am I required to do?  What am I forbidden to do?  What happens if I break the rules?  How do I deal with members of other religions?  etc.

 

That's what I'd want to know about the gods, not their stats and combat abilities.  Yes, I suppose it's possible to run a game where the players are gods themselves, or at least have god-level power, and might indeed go toe-to-toe with Zeus or Ra or Odin or maybe even Chuck Norris.  And yes, Hero system would probably be a great system to do that with, but I don't think most players and GMs run "god arena" games.

 

So anyway, I found the post I was looking for, and here it is, (with typos corrected) in case you haven't thought of this stuff yet:

 

I. The pantheon

A. Creation myth

1. Creation of the natural world

2. Creation of people

B. Organization

1. Family tree
2. Command structure

a) Rigid-fluid
b.) Degree of authority/control

3. Relationships between deities

a) Couples
b.) Allies/Partners
c) Rivals/enemies

C. Reality

1. Form. Examples:

a) The gods are all myth/superstition.
b.) The gods are legends based on exaggeration of historical events.
c) The gods are spirits of dead ancestors or other historical persons.
d) The gods are abstract concepts with no actual consciousness.
e) The gods are quasi-real with forms/attributes/aspect assigned by worshiping cultures.
f) The gods exist on a different level of reality, which allows them to modify their aspects/appearance based on their own desires or the culture they interact with.
g) The gods exist in a concrete sense and have true forms/attributes/aspects, which may be subject to interpretation/misinterpretation by worshipers.

h) The gods (at least some of them) are natural forces/phenomena which may or may not have consciousness, e.g., there is no "god of the sun" - the sun *is* a god.

2. Power Level. Examples:

a) The gods are nothing more than mere mortals that are worshiped.
b.) The gods are mere mortals believed to rise to divinity upon death or other event.
c) The gods are somewhat more powerful than typical mortals.
d) The gods have great power that only the greatest of mortals could rival.
e) The gods have incredible power beyond any mortal.
f) The gods have cosmic power, incomprehensible to mortals.

3. Power Source. Examples:

a) The gods' power is intrinsic.
b.) The gods' power is granted by superior gods.
c) The gods' power comes from external forces.
d) The gods' power comes from natural phenomena related to the gods' portfolio.
e) The gods' power comes from worship.
f) The gods' power comes from mortals' deeds.

II. The deity

A. Symbolic

1. Name(s)
2. Epithets/Nicknames
3. Appearance/Typical depiction
4. Symbol/Icon
5. Associated items/animals/materials/colors/phenomena

B. Intrinsic

1. Myth/Story
2. Portfolio/Sphere of influence
3. Differences/similarities to other deities
4. Stats/powers/abilities

a) Possessions/Artifacts/Relics
b.) Pets/Familiars/Mounts

5. Divine "rank"/Level of power
6. Home

a) "Plane" where the deity dwells
b.) Relationship of the deity to the "plane(s)"

C. Psychology/behavior

1. Personality
2. Goals/desires
3. Degree of involvement in mortal affairs

a) Manifestations/Avatars
b.) Spells/powers/abilities granted to clergy/worshippers
c) Signs/Miracles

D. Social

1. Among the gods

a) Reputation
b.) Position/function/purpose

2. Among mortals

a) Popularity/Obscurity
b.) Purpose of worship/reasons invoked
c) Abilities/skills typical/valued

III. The religion

A. Internal

1. Principles

a) Values/Dogma
b.) Obligations/expectations of clergy
c) Obligations/expectations of laity
d) Laws/taboos/restrictions
e) Attitude toward heresy/disagreement/questioning of doctrine/theology

f) Theology: What the gods are, their nature and aspects.
g) Theology: Afterlife, other "planes" of existance.

2. Practice

a) Rituals/Rites

b.) Holidays
c) Prayers
d) Priestly Vestments/Raiment
e) Temple architecture/layout/decor
f) Expressions/idioms
g) Equipment/paraphernalia used
h) Resolution of disputes
i) Punishment/penance/atonement
j) Education/Indoctrination of the faithful
k) Proselytism

3. Status of clergy/laity
4. Sects/factions/orders
5. Organization/hierarchy

B. External

1. Position in the community
2. Relations with other religions

C. Race/ethnicity/location/culture of worshipers

1. Alternate interpretations/aspects
2. Alternate names

IV. "Divine Magic"

A. Effects

1. Types of effects available/not available
2. Power Level
3. Special Effects

B. Source/Method to acquire/use. Examples:

1. No actual divine magic exists. Priests don't claim any magic.
2. No actual divine magic exists. Priestly magic is all chicanery.
3. There's no real difference between divine magic and "arcane" magic.
4. Divine magic is an inherent force in the world, separate from wizardly magic. Priests access it by their own means.
5. Divine magic is a fragment of the god's or gods' power, which priests access by being priests or doing something that priests do.
6. Gods grant magic to priests directly and consciously, if they choose to.
7. Gods grant magic to priests through intermediaries or lesser divine beings, with occasional oversight by the god(s).
8. Gods grant higher-powered magic to priests directly and consciously, while lesser magic is granted more-or-less automatically.
9. Priests access magic through their own faith, without the god's direct involvement. Strength of faith determines success or power level.

 

Not that you'd necessarily need to fill in *all* of these details for every single god/pantheon, or even any of them.  It's just a list of things that might be relevant.  I came up with this as a guideline for creating ones own custom mythos for a game world.  I assume there will be some text devoted to how to create your own gods.

 

And BTW, I lived in Hawaii for a while when I was a kid, and learned about the Hawaiian gods.  I actually wrote them up way back when, when I was playing this other RPG system.  The gods book from that system had me believing at the time, that gods needed full write-ups like characters or monsters.  

 

EDIT:  And one other thing to possibly include about gods/religions is their eschatology.  And if you don't know what "eschatology" means, don't worry about it, it's not the end of the world.

[Steve Long]

First off, PhilF, let me say Thanx! for taking so much time to write out what you'd like to see in Mythic Hero. It's always great to hear from fans who have strong opinions about a book and are willing to express them in a polite and constructive manner. So take 2 XP out of petty cash and treat yourself to something nice -- maybe an CSL with your favorite attack.

 

On to answers and observations about the points you made.

 

1. When I started writing MH back in 2011, it was still a Hero Games project rather than a personal project, and the guys around the office jokingly called it "Steve's Deities & Demigods." So I'm afraid I have to disappoint you a bit by explaining that the main thrust of MH, by and large, is to provide character sheets for the gods and heroes of world mythology (including game stats for weapons and other objects of myth).

 

However, the operative phrase here is Steve's DDG. I have the deepest respect for the authors of the DDG, a book I love and treasure, but to compare the DDG to MH is like comparing The Pokey Little Puppy to War And Peace. When I write about gods and mythoi, I include far, far more information than the DDG does. I cover the cosmology, the setting, the magic system (if one exists that's worth writing up in game terms), the major myths pertaining to each god and hero (and often the minor ones), relevant monsters and villains, and all sorts of other great stuff.

 

By way of example, look at the Hindu Mythology chapter in the DDG. If memory serves, it's 7 or 8 pages long, and more than half of those pages are basically whitespace. The Hindu Mythology chapter in MH is over 70,000 words long -- and most of that's not game stats, believe me. When I set out to cover a mythos, I cover it. In fact, there's so much info in MH that I am considering a separate publication where I strip out the gaming-related information and put out a book with just the researched, scholarly material.

 

(Another fun data point:  the bibliography for MH, which is far from complete at this time, is already over 6,000 words long. So if you want to follow up on my work, you'll know where to start. )

 

1a. Are you going to be fighting the gods? Quite possibly! World mythology is replete with stories of conflicts between gods and mortals -- be those conflicts physical, mental, social, magical, or just plain weird. And for that I think a character sheet can be helpful. Plus, as you observe, someone may want to play God vs. God, or pit two Greek heroes against some dudes from Aztec myth, or what have you.

 

1b.  But here's the great thing:  you can completely ignore the character sheets if you want to. Just flip on past 'em and read the text (and look at what I plan to be awesome artwork!). The fact that they're there for gamers who want them doesn't mean the book is pointless for gamers who don't want them.

 

1c. Plus, even if you don't want the character sheets as a whole, you might find bits of them -- like the HERO System stats for Mjolnir, or Zeus's thunderbolts, or Maui's magic fishhook -- useful or fun to have. If nothing else they're good argument fodder.

 

1d. In the final analysis, though, it comes down to this:  I want to do character sheets for gods. And this project is all about me doing what I find fun, fascinating, and hopefully of use to a lot of gamers. I've been at it for years, and have years to go. I'm not going to make any money off of it -- in fact, I expect to spend tens of thousands of dollars out of my own pocket bringing the book to print. So I'm going to do it exactly how I want to do it, and that means character sheets for gods.

 

2.  Pretty much everything in your Section II is covered in the character sheets for the individual deities, or when they don't have a sheet just in the text describing them. (Though of course many gods aren't important enough to merit more than a line or two explaining who they are.) Naturally, not every god gets the same coverage; sometimes certain data are available for God X but not for Gods Y and Z. But I am doing (literally) years' worth of research about all this stuff so you don't have to!

 

3.  Virtually nothing that you describe in your Section III will be in MH. That's not the purpose of the book; that's an entirely separate subject. If and when I happen to come across a useful detail about priests or temples or what not, I often throw it into the text, but most gods don't have any info about that sort of thing. After all, in many cases, those details are simply unknown to modern scholars.

 

However, all that being said, I have an idea for a stretch goal for the Kickstarter I'll hold for the book. It's to write a second book, in PDF, which would provide a one-page description (no more) of the priesthood, temple, etc. of any god important enough to get a character sheet in MH. But these would be entirely fictional -- where I know real world details I will use them, but for the most part I am just going to make things up to create religions that are appropriate for gaming.

 

There will be some information and guidelines for creating your own pantheons and gods for your games, but I don't plan for it to be extensive (at least, not right now). Again, that's not really the main focus of the book.

 

4.  Virtually nothing that you describe in your Section IV will be in MH. However, where the material justifies it, I have written up complete magic systems for the magics specific to a mythology and/or its culture. To name just a few, I've already written up Finnish, Egyptian, Hawaiian, East Slavic (Russian), and Australian Aborigine magic systems. In fact, I have enough new magic systems that after MH comes out, I may extract them and publish them separately for gamers who don't want all the mythology stuff.

 

 

It occurs to me that it might help people see what I'm talking about if I provided a sample chapter. I'll ponder on that, and if I like the idea I will mock up a crude layout and provide a link.

 

Anyhow -- I hope that helps to explain where I'm comin' from. If you have further suggestions or questions, by all means fire away!