MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

You have a point' date=' and I rather suspected that you would say this. It does confirm that you have a completely different idea of what this book should be that what I do, to the point it is now likely useless to me. I need something on creating and using deity-level beings, how their followers interact with them, church structure and history, various belief systems, etc. This all requires much text, and absolutely no stats. If it is a deity-level being, then it is a GM device in my opinion. Having the stats means they can be used as opponents. If it is just a series of character sheets, then I feel it could as easily be called Villains Volume 4. You see having stats as being valuable because you want them. I see them as being a definite loss. They can't be ignored - including them changes the book too much. Roleplaying with religion vs. grudge matches with the gods. I'll mostly drop out of the thread at this point, as I'm not the intended audience.[/quote']

 

Well, that seems a little dramatic given that there are already books out there like this. Go pick up intro texts in religious studies, mythology, and comparative religion. It's all there. What's valuable about Steve writing a book like this for a game is that we DO get stats. (Hence, my hoping we'll get god/demigod templates to cover the stuff he can't cover or which will let us monkey around with the patheons as needed.)

[megaplayboy]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I suppose one could list "standard deity tricks" like immortality, shapeshifting, extradimensional travel and so forth--anything that most gods are typically capable of, in mythology.

[Matthew Martin]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'll second those who think that there's no need to writeup an omnipotent' date=' omniscient being, but that angels, demons, and other of the lesser beings would be good to have. I think the potential for offense turns on whether one represents the material charitably or not. Just as a reminder, there were a number of writeups for some of this kind of material in PA Hero, and I think that was generally well-done. It could be updated and/or revised for wider use in other Hero settings without much trouble. I can think of some very cool Champions adventures flowing from the unleashing of the Four Horsemen and the periodic aid of (Arch)angels in an attempt to put those monsters to rest.[/quote']

 

Well, there's also the fact that the HERO System (or any game system) can't even handle angels and demons as traditional Christian theology understands them. The workaround's simple enough--these are folkloric or literary versions, and represent the kinds of powers and capabilities these beings are commanded/allowed to manifest by God in the kinds of situations heroes will encounter them.

[megaplayboy]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Well, Hero Designer actually has some hard point caps built into it, making it difficult to represent entities built on tens of thousands of points(the most points a "balanced" character can have is either 19,998 or 29,997, depending on how you handle complications and experience points; stats max out at 998; VPP active points max out at 9999; followers max out at 99,999; etc.).

Honestly, though, 1000 active points is already a mind-blowing level of power. Most mythological feats could easily be accomplished for far fewer points than that. Even most biblical feats don't require that much raw power.

[Orion]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Well' date=' that seems a little dramatic given that there are already books out there like this. Go pick up intro texts in religious studies, mythology, and comparative religion. It's all there. What's valuable about Steve writing a book like this for a game is that we DO get stats. (Hence, my hoping we'll get god/demigod templates to cover the stuff he can't cover or which will let us monkey around with the patheons as needed.)[/quote']

 

I've got the comparative religion books, and I already know the basics of Greek, Norse, and Slavic deities. What I was hoping to see is something quite different. I'm not as interested in the powers of real world deities (Wikipedia does fine here) as in how to use them. I'm thinking along the lines of "build your own pantheon", "fictional church practices", "roleplaying religion and priests", "do gods need worshipers", and "god's actions being mirrored in the world" as chapter titles. There is no value at all in stats for this.

 

There is much value in stats if you want Thor and Hercules as player characters (or opponents), or have some of the gods as merely old superheroes that used to be worshiped. For me, Thor and Hercules as presented in Marvel comics are not deities. Worshiped at one point, yes, deity, no. As I see it, full deities are GM devices, and do whatever the storyline needs at that point. It just happens - no need for stats, dice, or anything else. What some want Mythic Hero to be, is what I thought Legendary Hero was for. Gods go in one book. Stuff that mortals can actual look at without their eyes burning out and soul shriveling - that's for Legendary Hero. If my Zeus blasts a human - any human, including supers - they are dust. No roll needed. Automatic GM fiat. If Perseus takes a swing at you, he better roll well, because you just might swing back.

[megaplayboy]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

What if Zeus gets blasted by a Galaxar throwing 500 active points at him? No effect? Or might it be helpful to know where Zeus stands, vis a vis space gods, Kings of Edom, and various Demon Lords?

 

If cosmic entities and demon lords and Qliphothic entities all get writeups, deities do too.

 

I don't think you could fill a 300 page book with text and no writeups. The stuff you're asking for could be covered in 100 pages or less.

[The Main Man]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

What about the Titans of Greek mythology or Giants of Norse mythology? That is, beings who are nlt gods but are on par in various ways.

 

Perhaps you could have a small note regarding the Abrahamic god in that an omnipotent god is beyond the scope of a game system - they're pure plot device. Besides, there's always Atun from Egyptian mythology.

 

Also, what about Lovecraftian gods and demigods? They aren't actual myths, but the Cthulhu Mythos are predicated on being the backdrop of actual history, including religion and mythology as once thought. Perhaps notes on "horrorizing" gods could contain such information.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I realize it's not nearly as prominent or well-known in Western culture, but as it's a personal favorite of mine I'd be remiss if I didn't make a plea for the inclusion of Mongolian and Turkic mythology. With the connection to Genghis Khan and the Mongol Empire, and with Shamanism as one of the unusual forms worship takes, I think it could be an interesting and different element to contrast with the other religions.

 

The Chicago Press translation of Yves Bonnefoy's Asian Mythologies would be a good source for information, as would Primal Myths by Barbara C. Sproul and maybe The Mythology of Horses: Horse Legend and Lore Throughout the Ages by Gerald and Loretta Hausman. Unfortunately, the probable most comprehensive English translation source on the subject, Walther Heissig's The Religions of Mongolia, is prohibitively expensive (the cheapest used copy I could turn up is about $110), but if it's in the library of a local university it could be a great reference.

[Zane_Marlowe]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I've got the comparative religion books' date=' and I already know the basics of Greek, Norse, and Slavic deities. What I was hoping to see is something quite different. I'm not as interested in the powers of real world deities (Wikipedia does fine here) as in how to use them. I'm thinking along the lines of "build your own pantheon", "fictional church practices", "roleplaying religion and priests", "do gods need worshipers", and "god's actions being mirrored in the world" as chapter titles. There is no value at all in stats for this.[/quote']

 

Probably the closest one gets to this is in Fantasy Hero. My guess is that Steve will likely refer you to that book and to the 5th edition supplement, "The Mystic World." Between those two, I could see you finding a lot of what you might be interested in. If you have those and still want more, then okay. My point was that if you want deities in your sense, then you don't need a book to detail them because there's little more needed than what's already printed in ordinary mythology books. For even more detail, there are probably some good chapters on this in books on writing fantasy. In a game book (any game book), I need materials for the game itself. Because some games will want to make use of these characters as less than full deities (as you put it), then it's not a bad thing (and certainly no sleight against you) that they're written up.

[garygarrard]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Just to chime in... I'd love both mythic and legendary.

[Steve]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I forgot to answer that one question, but I would like to have both the Mythic and Legendary books.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

While I understand not wanting to write up the Christian Trinity' date=' I would like to see some write-ups for Old Testament style angelic beings that would be opposed to the devils and demons.[/quote']

 

In a similar vein, I'd like to see writeups of some of the angelic beings invoked in Enochian Magic.

[megaplayboy]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

More to the point, the horse has already left the barn, so to speak:

1. Mythic Greece--stats for Greek Gods in FH

2. Mythic Egypt--stats for Egyptian Gods in FH

3. Shadow World--contained stats for Gods of Kulthea, in FH terms

4. Olympians--for 4th Edition Champions

5. Thor and an Eskimo goddess appeared in a Champions supplement

6. A fallen angel was statted out in a Vibora Bay sourcebook

7. Ultimate Supermage suggested that avatars of Jesus/Jehovah/etc. have stats similar to Dr. Destroyer

8. Champions Villains features Tezcatlipoca

9. Demon and Arcane Adversaries have featured some of the Kings of Edom, as well as Tyrannon and Skarn

10. Champions Beyond has "space gods" such as the Galaxars and Xarriel

 

Hero's been statting out deities for a couple decades now.

[The Main Man]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

If there is a Legendary Hero in any capacity, perhaps a little discussion about what makes a legend, and thus how to forge a new one within a campaign. For some reason, I think Chuck Norris Facts should factor into the discussion somehow, as they are really just the internet equivalent to the Twelve Labors of Hercules and such when you get right down to it.

[Dr. MID-Nite]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'll second those who think that there's no need to writeup an omnipotent, omniscient being, but that angels, demons, and other of the lesser beings would be good to have. I think the potential for offense turns on whether one represents the material charitably or not. Just as a reminder, there were a number of writeups for some of this kind of material in PA Hero, and I think that was generally well-done. It could be updated and/or revised for wider use in other Hero settings without much trouble. I can think of some very cool Champions adventures flowing from the unleashing of the Four Horsemen and the periodic aid of (Arch)angels in an attempt to put those monsters to rest.

 

I'd also second (and hope you're still considering) the need for something like god/demigod templates so people can build their own pantheons, or add things to pantheons in the book. ("There was a hidden god whom the other gods would not name!") Servants of the gods (e.g., valkyries, angels) would be incredibly helpful as both templates and creatures. Having even a few of these in each pantheon would open up lots of campaign possibilities!

 

With respect...comics have had characters with "godlike" powers for a number of years...and comic book heroes have directly interacted with them(including combat) for nearly the same amount of time. That said...I don't think having stats for them is a bad idea....as in the comics...they're not truly all powerful all knowing anyways...just incredibly powerful beings. If you want "gods" that are truly beyond compare...then yeah...stats are not needed, but for many genres...including "superheroics"...the "gods" can be fought...and deserve writeups.

[dsatow]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I won't go over more religions, as you look like you have a good set.

 

If it makes any difference, I am a shinto buddhist, and I seriously doubt any shinto based person will be offended by description of japanese spirits and gods.

 

I would like to see some minor flavor issues for each religion to allow better incorporation into a campaign. What I mean by flavor issues are things such as description of temples/churches, prayer schedules if there are any, major religious holidays and a brief description of any festivities related to them, how the church relates to government (some are intrusive, others less so), and a couple of typical priests/monks with possible powers or abilities mostly as they relate to religion. If you can show a map of a stereo typical temple or church that would be great.

 

For example, a stereotypical shaolin monk, a shinto priest, a demon cultist. They do not have to be extensive, just a quick write up and maybe a referral to a better tome (such as HSMA or HSG).

 

I do think that you should put in some more mythical Christian based subjects but rather than call it Mythical Western Based Religions. Then you could probably deal with Angels, Demons, Devils, Saints, and Heaven vs. Hell in generic terms. You could also point out how these items are portrayed in western media such as Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Supernatural, etc. A few common spells and religious paraphernalia which doesn't have to be real but could be related to something in real life(holy water, A warding religious symbol, a saint's sword, a god killing weapon, etc.).

 

Those are just suggestions. Given the scope of what you are trying to accomplish, take what you want of the ideas. What you are trying to do is pretty large in scope. I look forward to what you actually write up.

[dmjalund]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

How bout Legen....dary Hero, starring Barney Stinson?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I remember Dean Shomshak giving us game stats for a few general classes of angel in the 4E Supermage Bestiary, as well as the names of various prominent angels, and their functions/ spheres of influence, in both Ultimate Supermage and Ultimate Mystic. IMO it would be appropriate, and sufficient, to include similar material.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I realize it's not nearly as prominent or well-known in Western culture, but as it's a personal favorite of mine I'd be remiss if I didn't make a plea for the inclusion of Mongolian and Turkic mythology. With the connection to Genghis Khan and the Mongol Empire, and with Shamanism as one of the unusual forms worship takes, I think it could be an interesting and different element to contrast with the other religions.

 

The Chicago Press translation of Yves Bonnefoy's Asian Mythologies would be a good source for information, as would Primal Myths by Barbara C. Sproul and maybe The Mythology of Horses: Horse Legend and Lore Throughout the Ages by Gerald and Loretta Hausman. Unfortunately, the probable most comprehensive English translation source on the subject, Walther Heissig's The Religions of Mongolia, is prohibitively expensive (the cheapest used copy I could turn up is about $110), but if it's in the library of a local university it could be a great reference.

 

OK, now this is an intriguing suggestion. I have the Bonnefoy book and will see what I can pull out of it (it's one of many books I have that I'll review as I write MH, and that may cause me to expand or change my ideas of what'll be in the book). The Heissig book sounds intriguing but that's more than I'd like to spend on this subject, but we'll see how things go and perhaps I'll change my mind. I doubt they have it over at UNCG but I can probably check there too if necessary. Thanx!

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'm thinking along the lines of "build your own pantheon", "fictional church practices", "roleplaying religion and priests", "do gods need worshipers", and "god's actions being mirrored in the world" as chapter titles.

 

To the extent I want to write about that, I've already done so on FH 374-83. That's about all I think the average gamer needs on the subject. That's not what MH has ever been intended to be about.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I am a shinto buddhist' date=' and I seriously doubt any shinto based person will be offended by description of japanese spirits and gods.[/quote']

 

I figure most people will be pretty reasonable about these things. I actually had a Hindu tell me he thought it would be pretty cool to see Hindu gods written up.

 

I would like to see some minor flavor issues for each religion to allow better incorporation into a campaign. What I mean by flavor issues are things such as description of temples/churches, prayer schedules if there are any, major religious holidays and a brief description of any festivities related to them, how the church relates to government (some are intrusive, others less so), and a couple of typical priests/monks with possible powers or abilities mostly as they relate to religion. If you can show a map of a stereo typical temple or church that would be great.

 

That would certainly be interesting to write about someday, but it's beyond what I can do in this book. I'm going to have enough trouble just getting the basic mythology research done without delving into more of this stuff! Where possible I'll include what information I can reasonably dig up in sidebars and cosmology sorts of discussions, but that's about the best I can promise.

[BvBPL]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I figure most people will be pretty reasonable about these things. I actually had a Hindu tell me he thought it would be pretty cool to see Hindu gods written up.

 

Oddly enough, I'm playing Hanuman (Hindu hero demi-god) in a Champions game.

[John T]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Some notes regarding "family trees" and deities co-opted from earlier faiths. Central/South America was rife with this. The Romans practically adopted the Greek pantheon... and then started "cross-breeding" with the Egyptian deities.

 

Just about every mythic pantheon has examples.

 

edit: Also have to laugh, since I'd started a thread here ages ago (Mythic Champions) about wanting to run a game in such a setting. Unfortunately, my life rarely allows me the time to work on such a project at length. This (pair of?) books will almost certainly make that campaign a reality.

[BvBPL]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Some notes regarding "family trees" and deities co-opted from earlier faiths. Central/South America was rife with this. The Romans practically adopted the Greek pantheon... and then started "cross-breeding" with the Egyptian deities.

 

If you think that’s interesting, read The Divine Horsemen by Maya Deren. It goes into how voodoo practitioners use Catholic saints as focuses of worship for voodoo loa. For example, the statue of one saint is used as a focus of worship for the loa of snakes because the saint’s portrayal typically has the saint crushing a serpent under foot.

[Christopher]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

If you think that’s interesting' date=' read The Divine Horsemen by Maya Deren. It goes into how voodoo practitioners use Catholic saints as focuses of worship for voodoo loa. For example, the statue of one saint is used as a focus of worship for the loa of snakes because the saint’s portrayal typically has the saint crushing a serpent under foot.[/quote']

"O my mighty god, please be crushed by a mere human following a different religion."

Let's say I somehow question the logic behind this specific proxy-statue....