MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

[Old Man]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I'm still sad that enough people didn't man-up and support the Kickstarter for this amazing project Hopefully' date=' one day we will taste the sweet fruits of Steve's long-loving labours...[/quote']

 

Don't worry, if he dies Brandon Sanderson can finish it.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I would pay $200 for a color hardback with art (even public domain art if selected with discretion).

 

I appreciate that. Believe me, I wish I could find another 300-400 people who would do the same, since that's definitely how I'd like to do MH -- as a full-color hardback with all original art (there simply isn't any public domain art for most of the gods I'm writing up, though there's probably plenty for the Greek and Norse mythoi). But that'd cost at least $60,000 if not more -- it's hard to say until I know how long the book is and how much art it would need.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Don't worry, if he dies Brandon Sanderson can finish it.

 

Perhaps, but now I can't have a Darrell K. Sweet cover.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

In other news, the Egyptian Mythology chapter is coming along well -- I've barely gotten started and I'm already up to about 8,000 words.

 

If all goes well I'll have enough Egyptian gods that I'll be prepared to run "Mythic Hero Smackdown" at MystiCon (Roanoke, VA, Feb 22-24) and other cons I'm attending this year, if there's any demand. It's a hardcore Hero fan sort of game, though, so it's probably not something I could pull off at a small local con.

[Rhino]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I appreciate that. Believe me' date=' I wish I could find another 300-400 people who would do the same, since that's definitely how I'd like to do MH -- as a full-color hardback with all original art (there simply isn't any public domain art for most of the gods I'm writing up, though there's probably plenty for the Greek and Norse mythoi). But that'd cost at least $60,000 if not more -- it's hard to say until I know how long the book is and how much art it would need.[/quote']

 

 

I know that I missed the Kickstarter because I was away from the Hero Forums for a while. I believe that there are many others in my position who are nostalgic for the Hero System. Perhaps a dedicated effort to let them know about another Kickstarter attempt might bear fruit.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I know that I missed the Kickstarter because I was away from the Hero Forums for a while. I believe that there are many others in my position who are nostalgic for the Hero System. Perhaps a dedicated effort to let them know about another Kickstarter attempt might bear fruit.

You think there wasn't a dedicated effort the first time? We didn't just sit here on the Hero forums with our thumbs up our bums hoping money would magically show up you know. We posted on RPG.net and RPGGeeks and others. We talked to our FLGS. We posted on Facebook and twitter and more. Hell, I got people who aren't even into gaming to pledge over $100 bucks (at $10 a piece) by asking for that instead of birthday presents that year. If you didn't see any of that what would have found you, going door to door like Mormons on mission?

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I know that I missed the Kickstarter because I was away from the Hero Forums for a while. I believe that there are many others in my position who are nostalgic for the Hero System. Perhaps a dedicated effort to let them know about another Kickstarter attempt might bear fruit.

 

I can't say for certain, but I don't believe that was really the problem.

 

One of the most heartening things for me about the MH Kickstarter was how much enthusiasm the backers had for it, and how much effort they put into letting people know. As a one-man operation who has to get some work done around managing a Kickstarter (which takes more effort than you might imagine), it was doubly appreciated! There's nothing more encouraging than having people tell you how much they're looking forward to your book.

 

The factor that makes me consider taking one final stab at an MH Kickstarter isn't that the word didn't "get out" about the first one, because for the most part I think it did. It's that in the intervening year Kickstarter's become even better known and more accepted by society in general, and gamers in particular. There are lots of gamers who didn't know about or weren't paying attention to KS this time last year who are following it closely now. Is that enough of a difference that I might succeed if I tried again? I don't know, but it's possible. Is it likely I'd succeed in a major way, bringing in enough money to do the book up right in full color and whatnot? Well, that's considerably less likely (if not virtually impossible), but I suppose you never know what might capture the public's imagination.

 

The other thing I have going for me now is that I've done a year's more work on the book. I now have enough material where I could post a small "free sample" to encourage backers. I don't know if that would be a good idea or not. It might help; it might just lead to pointless arguments and ill-informed criticisms by the Hero elite. It's hard to say -- but at least now I have the option.

[Ndreare]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Have you considered a cross game product? The hardest part of a book like this would be the research and writing. But making it cross game such as Savage Worlds, Fate or D20 stats would broaden the base of pe people. Of course then you have the additional page count and potential fees for lisense.

 

I am asking because I know I personally play multiple games and a single product that could touch them would be interesting.

[Ndreare]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

As an example I Remer the second version of New Mellinium had fusion and fifth ed stats.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Ndreare -- I have, but I don't think it's feasible for a couple reasons. One, as you note, is that it increases the page space. Two, as you also note, it adds work for me, particularly since I don't necessarily know those game systems well and would have to learn 'em.

 

What would be more likely, if I ever get MH done, would be to at some point prepare a *second* book where I re-stat the same material for Some Other RPG, and try to sell it separately to SORPG's customers. That entails extra work for me, and of course more printing costs, but the bulk of the work and the art would all have been paid for. Alternately, I could just do that as a PDF and avoid the printing costs altogether.

 

But anyhow, it's all academic unless and until I can find a way to publish the book in some form in the first place.

[Zephrosyne]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Is it possible to just make it a pdf only thing if you aren't able to get enough to cover printing? I really want this book to see the light of day. It was the first thing that I have ever backed on Kickstarter when you tried the first time. In fact, I have only backed one thing since.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

While I obviously don't speak for Steve, he has already said no to doing a PDF only release several times. I doubt that has changed at this time.

[megaplayboy]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

I think a Kickstarter 2.0 effort, with plenty of advance publicity here and on places like rpg.net and elsewhere, with some sample pages and a much more concrete statement of what will and won't be included, maybe some real value-added stuff put in there based on feedback here and elsewhere...would be more likely to be successful than the first effort. It's almost a shame you can't have a "do the best with what you get" option on KS, so if you get 90%, you could still have the option to scale some things back and/or solicit some supplemental funds elsewhere to make up the gap.

[psyber624]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Well, generally speaking "Do the best with what you get" should be your base amount, ie that's the minimum you need to get the book/idea/whatever off the ground. Then you add all the bells and whistles as stretch goals.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Is it possible to just make it a pdf only thing if you aren't able to get enough to cover printing? I really want this book to see the light of day. It was the first thing that I have ever backed on Kickstarter when you tried the first time. In fact, I have only backed one thing since.

 

I appreciate the suggestion, Zeph (not to mention the pledge! ), but I really don't want to release MH just as a PDF. Not doing it as an actual book just seems wrong somehow. I want something I can hold in my hand and flip through.

 

My thought, actually, go the other way: how could I make MH a full-color hardcover? Given that so far I haven't even been able to finance a softcover b&w book, color is a real pipe dream -- but hey, what's life if you don't dare to dream a little?

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

Well, generally speaking "Do the best with what you get" should be your base amount, ie that's the minimum you need to get the book/idea/whatever off the ground. Then you add all the bells and whistles as stretch goals

 

That is certainly my general approach, particularly as I have limited capacity to provide bells and/or whistles.

 

Technically speaking, there is a "do the best you can with however much people pledge" option -- it's called IndieGoGo, which is like KS but the money is taken as soon as you pledge. It's not nearly as popular as KS, though, for obvious reasons. I'd rather go the KS route; I wouldn't feel good about taking people's money unless I'm sure I can provide them with something for it.

[Steve Long]

Re: MYTHIC HERO: What Do *You* Want To See?

 

In other news, making good progress on Egyptian mythology -- got about 12,000 words so far. Still lots of research to do though.

[Steve Long]

Just a quick update for those interested in such things: I have declared the Egyptian Mythology chapter more or less "finished." It ended up being about 26,000 words long, making it the fourth or fifth longest chapter so far. The book as a whole is approaching 250,000 words and is nowhere near being finished. O.o

 

Next up: Yoruban Mythology! On deck: Japanese Mythology, because a friend's daughter put in a special request.

 

My current list of mythoi I expect to cover includes:

 

African (covering all tribes and parts of the continent not covered in other chapters)

Ainu

✔American Indian (split into six sub-chapters covering major cultural groups)

✔Armenian

✔Assyro-Babylonian

Australian Aborigine

✔Aztec

Canaanite*

Celtic

Chinese

Demonology (medieval Christian demons; may also include some angels)

✔Egyptian

Estonian*

Etruscan*

Filipino*

✔Finnish

✔Greek and Roman

Hawaiian

Hindu

Hittite*

Hungarian*

Inca

✔Japanese

Lithuanian*

Maori*

Masai*

✔Mayan

Mongolian/Turkic*

✔Norse

Oceanic

Persian

Scythian*

Slavic/Russian

South American* (possibly combined with Inca)

✔Sumerian

Ugric

Voodoo

✔Yoruban

Miscellaneous

 

(✔ = has been written; * = subject to being combined with other chapters, or moved to Miscellaneous if there's not enough material to support a whole chapter)

[Steve Long]

Quick update: Yoruban Mythology chapter done! Came in at about 8,700 words. Now about to start on Japanese Mythology.

[Steve Long]

The latest update: I've completed the Japanese mythology chapter! Came in just short of 20,000 words.

 

As long as I'm in the Japanese islands I think I'll stay and write the Ainu mythology chapter. After that, it's on to something different.

[Steve Long]

Time for another update!

 

I've finished the Ainu mythology chapter. It came in at 14,600 words, which was a lot longer than I expected when I started it.

 

Haven't decided what to tackle next. Australian Aborigine is most likely, but Hawaiian, Slavic/Russian, and Voodoo are all in the running. Don't want to think about the remaining "big three" (Celtic, Chinese, and Hindu) just yet...

[intp]

I'm still hopeful this will see print some day. I would definitely buy it. I still have the original edition of the "Deities & Demigods" book and still enjoy occasionally flipping through it, although I personally find the AD&D system to be vastly inferior to the Hero System.

 

[Pteryx]

What interests me most about this book is the kind of stuff that would be covered in the first chapter.

 

I'll be honest, what led me to looking at HERO again is that there are really only so many systems that lend themselves to statting up gods. Heck, the real reason behind my starting the thread here ( http://www.herogames.com/forums/forum/hero-games/hero-system-discussion/3598796-mind-link-initiated-in-reverse ) is to help figure out how one would model people praying to a god. "Portfolio sense" is another big one; it's clearly Clairsentience with lots of perception points at its core, but how does one turn that both reflexive and global? The usage time limitations on Megascaled things seem to get in the way of making both that and passive Megasenses. A "follower sense" would be appropriate too.

 

Even ways to handle worship call for some game stat treatment -- it could be simply an alternate "food" in the way that underwater breathing is the default for aquatic beings, it could be a Dependency that affects Base Characteristics or powers or REC, it could be unnecessary and just be a really expensive Organization Contact, or it could even be an annoyance that qualifies as a Social Complication paired with a Distinctive Feature that Causes Extreme Reactions, making it hard to act directly in the world. Aside from worship, I suggest health of one's domain as a possible important variable; oil spills might make the god of the ocean get sick. -- Pteryx

[Lucius]

What interests me most about this book is the kind of stuff that would be covered in the first chapter.

 

I'll be honest, what led me to looking at HERO again is that there are really only so many systems that lend themselves to statting up gods. Heck, the real reason behind my starting the thread here ( http://www.herogames.com/forums/forum/hero-games/hero-system-discussion/3598796-mind-link-initiated-in-reverse ) is to help figure out how one would model people praying to a god. "Portfolio sense" is another big one; it's clearly Clairsentience with lots of perception points at its core, but how does one turn that both reflexive and global? The usage time limitations on Megascaled things seem to get in the way of making both that and passive Megasenses. A "follower sense" would be appropriate too.

 

Even ways to handle worship call for some game stat treatment -- it could be simply an alternate "food" in the way that underwater breathing is the default for aquatic beings, it could be a Dependency that affects Base Characteristics or powers or REC, it could be unnecessary and just be a really expensive Organization Contact, or it could even be an annoyance that qualifies as a Social Complication paired with a Distinctive Feature that Causes Extreme Reactions, making it hard to act directly in the world. Aside from worship, I suggest health of one's domain as a possible important variable; oil spills might make the god of the ocean get sick. -- Pteryx

 

I THOUGHT what you were looking for in that thread sounded like a "prayer sense!"

 

I'm going to try to find the old thread on building Gods in the Fantasy Hero forum, if I can find it you'll see it bumped to the top.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

If I can't find it, maybe the palindromedary and I will just start a new one.

 

[Pteryx]

Between this thread, the one Lucius bumped, and various others around, I've noticed basically three approaches to the idea of statting gods:

 

1) Gods are GM plot devices, don't you dare stat them up;

2) Gods are disembodied presences with worldwide influence, best statted as AI Computers with thousands of points;

3) Gods are just high-level superheroes with points in the high hundreds or low thousands, and suitable as PCs when done this way.

 

People in camp #1 are obviously not the market for Mythic HERO. #2 has its uses, but still relegates gods to GM plot devices ultimately, just with listed boundaries. #3... well, I tend to find that approach dissatisfying. You end up with a Zeus who can throw lightning bolts, but not take control of the lightning strikes in a thunderstorm halfway across the world, and to me, the latter is pretty important. The line between superheroes and gods is one I'd prefer to have drawn even if gods happen to have avatars or even "real" (if nigh-impossible-to-kill) bodies, and to me the ability to manipulate one's domain the world over is a key aspect of the "god" side of the line.

 

As for my own dog in this fight, let me tell you about my character...

 

 

About half a year ago, happenstance led to me starting to RP a formerly-human character who ascended to divinity for unknown reasons in a freeform, systemless situation, and I've kept at it ever since. (It's a long story.) He could be likened to a really, really strong mentalist to the point that he might as well be a disembodied presence a lot of the time, but he still has a body and there are still things that are only possible or practical for him to do in person. When it comes to things unrelated to his domain, those greater domains that his falls under, his senses, or being hard to kill except in a very specific way, he's not significantly better than he used to be and still well within the human range. When his power is actually applicable, however, it's downright frightening in its potency.

 

He's basically become the god of his earthly job. He wants to do it more than ever, but can't safely do so; not only would his presence disrupt a delicate balance within his sort of workplace, but others who have that job tend to fall at his feet upon encountering him and become obsessed with his divinity from then on, whether he likes it or not and regardless of their previous beliefs. This is a problem since it often comes at the expense of their work due either to time wasted on rituals and prayer or a less rational outlook on life. It's the continued practice and health of that occupation across the world that he depends on for his survival, and his ability to live vicariously through his former peers and throw in subtle interventions as appropriate and ethical that keeps him sane. Worship isn't strictly necessary for him, despite what the prevalence of the trope of gods needing worship might lead one to believe... though there are enough fringe benefits to worship that he doesn't want to forbid it, just have it scaled back considerably and boundaries set on it, if people would just stop fawning over him long enough to actually listen.

 

Since he can't just do his old job himself like he wants and struggles not to intervene to the point of doing others' jobs for them, he's desperate to keep himself occupied beyond what he can do in the "background" without overreaching and stunting mortal growth. As such, he tries to find ways to advance his domain in the world without just dictating ideas from on high (since that would lead to more obsession), searches as best he can for answers concerning his ascension and for the counterpart gods necessary for him to ever do the job he presides over properly again... and yes, goes on adventures loosely related to his domain that fall outside of human scope.

 

 

What I'm getting at with my rambling behind the spoiler cut is two things. One, approaches #2 and #3 are something of a false dichotomy; it's possible to make a satisfying compromise between the two. Two, you don't have to stick to a pure #3 approach to keep a god playable; spin things right and even a full-fledged small-g god can face conflict. Both of these are things I'd love to see reflected in a book about gods in gaming, both in advice and in the approach to stats. -- Pteryx