Cancer Posted February 23, 2012 Report Share Posted February 23, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) Nah, in this case, it was a hardware problem. All the math in the world won't help you when the cabling is hosed so the input numbers you get are off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) Well, "tardyonic" matter can interact with photons, so it would seem to make sense that tachyonic matter could, as well, just from a sense of symmetry. Of course, that assumes that there IS such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) Nah' date=' in this case, it was a hardware problem. All the math in the world won't help you when the cabling is hosed so the input numbers you get are off.[/quote'] At this point it appears to have been a hardware problem. Isn't this the third or forth time someone's claimed to have found the bug? Let's run the test again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) Maybe there's still hope that I can retire in a different star system! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) At this point it appears to have been a hardware problem. Isn't this the third or forth time someone's claimed to have found the bug? Let's run the test again. But how many of those times have they claimed a math error - and how often have they actually found an measurable error in the hardware setup? Hardware is the one thing that neither Mathematicans nor Programmers can predict or compensate for. They have to asume that it works error free, or they couldn't work at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) But how many of those times have they claimed a math error - and how often have they actually found an measurable error in the hardware setup? Hardware is the one thing that neither Mathematicans nor Programmers can predict or compensate for. They have to asume that it works error free, or they couldn't work at all. Unh, we may have been doing it wrong out here in the sticks, but I was taught to measure data scatter against known sources of error, including hardware, as an undergraduate. When you have anomalous data of this kind, you go back over the hardware to find additional sources of error. The results weren't reported until the working group thought that it had dealt with these issues. Now we're in the post-report period, familiar to members of my generation from the reaction to first reports of cold fusion and high temperature superconduction. In both cases, we had early reports both of confirmation and disproof. Sociologists of scientific knowledge have found it highly productive to look at the early reporters and understand how they came to make their calls. Generally, first reports come from outlier labs hoping to move inwards towards the centre of scientific networks of knowledge/credit. The bet is more easily made the further out you are, which is why there was a rash of confirmations of cold fusion from the furthest outlying labs. It was an easy experiment to do, and the gains from reporting confirmation of a revolutionary discovery at an earlyl date seemed to these labs to far outweigh the loss of credibility of proving to be wrong. By contrast, the labs that confirmed high temperature superconduction were much closer to the centre of existing networks. The result, once reported, quickly acquired a compelling theoretical explanation, and the experiment was difficult to do. Labs with more resources had more at stake in making their position public, but also higher confidence that they were going to be right. In the case of the superluminal neutrino report, we have an experiment that is impossible to replicate, but the same calculus of social profit for labs wishing to engage the discovery. The gain from disproving the result by the means available (critique of the experimental setup) are great, and costs low. This is the strictly Sociology of Scientific Knowledge analysis underlying these leaps into the fray. They're being made because they're highly plausible, and being highly plausible, they're probably right. But that doesn't mean that matters are settled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ternaugh Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) But we have high temperature superconductors. It's just that in this case, "high temperature" is defined as above 30 K. JoeG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeropoint Posted February 24, 2012 Report Share Posted February 24, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) "Researches in Juno, Alaska, discover room-temperature superconductor!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted February 25, 2012 Report Share Posted February 25, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) But we have high temperature superconductors. It's just that in this case, "high temperature" is defined as above 30 K. JoeG Sorry, I was assuming that everyone remembered the thing with rare-earth compound high temperature super conductors that broke back in 1986. Just like I keep trying to forget how many adults I know weren't even alive then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) Hardware error may have resulted in putative ftl neutrinos being reported as moving at lower speeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) Hardware error may have resulted in putative ftl neutrinos being reported as moving at lower speeds. OPERA plans to run new measurements in May to test how the two problems may have affected the experiments, CERN said Looking forward to the retest results, however they turn out. This is science, repeating the experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) Considering that this is the second error found in the time measurement, I wouldn't get my hopes up. They will propably find a few more and the endresult will propably be "it's STL". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) Considering that this is the second error found in the time measurement' date=' I wouldn't get my hopes up. They will propably find a few more and the endresult will propably be "it's STL".[/quote'] FTL, STL, I just want the experiment repeated rather than "Found the error, case closed, moving on now." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawnmower Boy Posted February 26, 2012 Report Share Posted February 26, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) Considering that this is the second error found in the time measurement' date=' I wouldn't get my hopes up. They will propably find a few more and the endresult will propably be "it's STL".[/quote'] Possible error. Labs and workers are throwing out explanations right now to acquire social credit. No-one ought to have their hopes up. This was an inexplicable result from the first, and the most likely explanation has always been instrument error. In that sense, the continuing failure to find a clear failure actually makes the FTL explanation more likely, albeit still very unlikely. We need repeat observations, hopefully by other labs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancer Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) Since I'll be part of a panel at Norwescon talking about this, I'll go ahead and quote what everyone I know thought at the time the original story broke, linked from its source, xkcd: [ATTACH=CONFIG]42013[/ATTACH] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
L. Marcus Posted March 2, 2012 Report Share Posted March 2, 2012 Re: Science: Particles seen moving at FTL speeds (CERN) (non-climate change thread) xkcd is good, xkcd is wise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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