Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

[Markdoc]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Bit of an aside' date=' but does anyone remember the old Villains & Vigilantes scenarios? V&V used a hit point mechanic similar to D&D, as well as a "power" stat used like END, but which did not recover as rapidly, so several smaller encounters could wear the characters down. The first step in translating most V&V scenarios, at least for me, was to consolidate the opponents so the five PC's would battle five villains at once, not one at a time which, in Hero, would make those combats a cakewalk with all STUN and END recovered between each adversary.[/quote']

 

Actually I had forgotten that (probably because I never GM'ed V&V, though I did play). But it plays to the same point: an opponent can have a meaningful effect on an adventure's development, even if it has no meaningful chance of success simply by causing consumption of resources. That doesn't really play in Hero: you only have one consumable, usually, and that's BOD. And BOD damage isn't a great regulator in most scenarios because normal recovery of lost BOD is so slow and BOD loss normally represents significant harm being inflicted on the party.

 

As I commented before, I don't see this as a real problem (as long as the GM/scenario writer is aware of it) - it just means that Hero system scenarios operate to a different paradigm: you don't necessarily want a huge gap in capabilities between minion and boss. The whole concept of "minion fights" becomes less relevant except as colour.

 

cheers, Mark

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

But it plays to the same point: an opponent can have a meaningful effect on an adventure's development' date=' even if it has no meaningful chance of success simply by causing consumption of resources. That doesn't really play in Hero: you only have one consumable, usually, and that's BOD.[/quote']

 

That may be true by default, but it doesn't have to be. A GM can introduce resource consumption by requiring Charges, Expendable Foci, Burnout, or other restrictions on use.

[Lucius]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

There are also Long Term Endurance rules.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Durable palindromedary

[Markdoc]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

That may be true by default' date=' but it doesn't have to be. A GM can introduce resource consumption by requiring Charges, Expendable Foci, Burnout, or other restrictions on use.[/quote']

 

There are also Long Term Endurance rules.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Durable palindromedary

 

Right. I use LTE in my FH campaigns to keep a lid on magic use. And in the last campaign, one PC started learning a very Vancian style of magic, which in many way resembles D&D spellcasting. But those are exceptions, not rules. A scenario writer in Hero system cannot assume that characters will have use-limited capabilities: and it's hard to make any assumptions about capabilities at all.

 

In contrast, in D&D, if you are writing a scenario for 11th-13th level characters, you can with a great deal of certitude assume that they will have at most 2-4 6th level spells per day, and no 8th level spells.

 

This is the whole point: writing pre-prepared scenarios for D&D provides you very solid guidelines not just for what PC capabilities you can expect will be present, but equally importantly what will not be present. Hero system doesn't offer that luxury/crutch. The specific game worlds differ - Dark Sun operates under very different assumptions than Ravenloft ... but a 5th level D&D Cleric, for example, still has mostly the same capabilities, regardless of game world. In contrast, Hero system characters can vary very widely in their capabilities, even within the same game world.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

This is the whole point: writing pre-prepared scenarios for D&D provides you very solid guidelines not just for what PC capabilities you can expect will be present, but equally importantly what will not be present. Hero system doesn't offer that luxury/crutch. The specific game worlds differ - Dark Sun operates under very different assumptions than Ravenloft ... but a 5th level D&D Cleric, for example, still has mostly the same capabilities, regardless of game world. In contrast, Hero system characters can vary very widely in their capabilities, even within the same game world.

 

cheers, Mark

 

So if you don't think if someone designs a scenerio for use with The Westren Shores (since tht's what I have) that that isn't enough of a guideline?

[Surgo]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

We're going off a real tangent here' date=' but I'm guessing part of the reason for the apparent confusion between posters is that you haven't played a lot of D&D prior to 4E (which is what most people still play). "Stunlock" is an 4E mechanism: there is not and never has been anything equivalent in earlier D&D. Nor, for that matter does "focus fire" (another MMO-style concept) really work in earlier D&D, since there is no cycling of defences, almost all of which tend to be passive in earlier versions of D&D. You [b']can[/b] inhibit movement (much harder to do in 3.75) but lockdown builds in classic D&D typically work by punishing movement, not preventing it. And high CR singleton monsters tend to have high damage/high BAB attacks, reach, SR and/or DR, all of which negate most of the advantages of lockdown. 4E was built very much with MMO styles of play in mind. So what works in WoW, or Diablo (or 4E) does not necessarily translate to the tabletop game most people have played/are playing and think of as D&D.

Err, it seems you are posting based on a completely mistaken assumption. I've only played 3e or 3.5e, and 4e once when the books first came out (and never since then). And stunlock is 100% a mechanic available there: take a look at the various caster spell lists. I don't really know what this "3.75" that you're talking about is.

 

Maybe fore the same reason,you're also wrong about the cleric: yes, it takes him one hour to prepare his spells: but he can also only do that at a predefined time of day: once every 24 hour cycle (3.5 PHB, column 1, paragraph 4: the same is true in 3.75). The same is true of the other classes: Sorcerors don't need to prepare spells in advance, but their spells per day are defined by the table in the 3.5 PHB on page 54. Like Clerics, it only takes wizards 1 hour to prepare spells, but they need a good night's sleep beforehand (and items like a ring of sustenance that decrease the need for sleep, specifically note that they do not affect the need for 8 hour's rest before preparing spells). The spell allotments for casters are what they get per day: no more. The same language is actually used for all primary casters, where the fact that the respective casting tables give maximum output per day is specifically noted.

The text for the Cleric is different in the SRD and open to interpretation there. I was not referring to the Ring of Sustenance, I was specifically referring to an item whose name I cannot recall in the Magic Item Compendium that explicitly lowered the rest requirement for other spellcasters.

 

So yes, the adventuring day is defined largely by the 24 hour spell cycle: that's where the concept came from, and why it's still valid (outside 4E). The concept of attrition is also very valid, as your own examples make clear. Yes, for sure you can blow away minions as you rise in level: that's a major design paradigm. But an equally important design paradigm is that this is attrition. Yes, you can slow down or remove a mass of minions with Blasphemy/Holy Word (design note: minions are typically character level -4 or less: above that they are regarded as level-appropriate foes). But you just used up a 7th level spell to do so, and even high level characters don't have a lot of those. That significantly degrades your capabilities for the rest of the adventuring day: especially for prepared casters - odds are good that you will have - at most - 2 of those slots loaded with Blasphemy/Holy Word and pretty good you will only have one. Again, outside 4E, attrition remains one of the defining features of D&D and D&D design (Monte Cook, in particular, talked about it at length and about how "resource management" was a crucial part of the game).

And, quite simply, Monte Cook was wrong. Blasphemy works almost equally effective at your CL - 1, because dazed is simply an extremely awesome status effect that will instantly win you the encounter. It actually gets more complicated than that because Blasphemy can and will outright kill people at your CR or higher. There are many ways to boost your caster level in the DMG alone, and this is compounded with the fact that CR and Hit Dice are not equivalent. A lot of the actual scary spellcasting guys just have artificially low HD so they simply get insta-gibbed by Blasphemy.

 

Anyway, Blasphemy isn't the only spell out there. Scaling down levels, you get Forcecage, Solid Fog, and...truth be told, a lot of encounters, mook or not, can be dealt with solely by Silent Image (spell level: 1).

 

An encounter chain doesn't have to follow the traditional minions -> level appropriate foes -> BBEG, to make use of attrition. You can, just as easily start out with a BBEG and then challenge the party effectively with minions, because by the time the party hits the minions, you can be certain that their resources will be severely degraded.

How exactly do you plan on challenging them with minions, afterward? They should still have spells two levels lower than their highest slot, and because spells are ridiculously awesome at every level they will be almost as effective. Or they can just Rope Trick themselves away and get full again the moment that spell is available to be cast.

 

A real life example (so to speak) comes from our current game, where a while back we ran into a single higher-CR challenge (some kind of a fey creature). It had sufficient DR that our melee types were getting just a few HP through her defences per round and sufficient SR that most lower-level spells were fizzling. In the end, we were able to drive her off with a mixture of martial attacks that avoided DR and assay spell resistance+Flamestrike to get around SR and DR. But that fight took place in the morning and cost us a couple of horses. More importantly, was the constant problem with attrition. The primary casters had used up most of their higher level attack spells and the cleric burnt off a bunch of lower level spells on healing. That gives us the choice: press on to the next village - and face any subsequent encounters at greatly decreased capacity - or return to our starting point. We pressed ahead, but a subsequent encounter with trolls - which would normally have been but a speed bump - turned into a bloody encounter, with near death for one PC, because we had burned through most of the party's magical firepower and we had to take them down in the end, in HTH combat.

After Assay Spell Resistance went through, why didn't they just use Plane Shift (or better yet, Slay Living because fey have poor fortitude saves) instead of Flamestrike (same spell level) to instantly kill her? Did the cleric not have a level 1 wand (cost: 750 gp) to use for healing? Regardless of those sorts of combat question though...that choice you presented doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. If the party wasn't on a time crunch, why wouldn't they just stop and take their rest so they would be at full power for the next encounter? If there's no penalty for doing so, there's no reason not to it and it's near suicidal (as you showed) to not do so.

 

More importantly - to get back on track - this is a feature that D&D doesn't necessarily share with Hero system. I don't see that as a design problem, although it is something to take into account when adjusting D&D modules.

Completely agree with you here. It's not bad, it's just different.

[Markdoc]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Err' date=' it seems you are posting based on a completely mistaken assumption. I've only played 3e or 3.5e, and 4e once when the books first came out (and never since then). And stunlock is 100% a mechanic available there: take a look at the various caster spell lists. I don't really know what this "3.75" that you're talking about is.[/quote']

 

Cite? I don't think there is any such thing as "stunlock" in 3.5. The closest you can come is daze (nice, but not that great) or simple stunning (as with stunning fist): a powerful effect, but not stackable, reasonably hard to inflict and not effective against a substantial range of foes. 3.75 is the shorthand for Pathfinder. In 4E Stunlock is - at very high levels - a problem because there you can inflect conditions, not just damage effects, and they persist over multiple rounds. That's not the case in 3.5.

 

The text for the Cleric is different in the SRD and open to interpretation there. I was not referring to the Ring of Sustenance' date=' I was specifically referring to an item whose name I cannot recall in the Magic Item Compendium that [b']explicitly[/b] lowered the rest requirement for other spellcasters.

 

Ummm. No. The d20SRD is here, and it says quite explicitly "Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells" Not only that but the SRD does not over-rule the actual rules.

 

Also? I have the MIC PDF and just scanned it for sleep, rest and recovery. I find no such item. None of our gaming group has even heard of such an item. I'll have to be ... sceptical.

 

And' date=' quite simply, Monte Cook was wrong. Blasphemy works almost equally effective at your CL - 1, because dazed is simply an extremely awesome status effect that will instantly win you the encounter. It actually gets more complicated than that because Blasphemy can and will [b']outright kill people at your CR or higher[/b]. There are many ways to boost your caster level in the DMG alone, and this is compounded with the fact that CR and Hit Dice are not equivalent. A lot of the actual scary spellcasting guys just have artificially low HD so they simply get insta-gibbed by Blasphemy.

 

Heh. If daze - or stun - instantly wins you an encounter, our party'd be a lot more powerful than we are. Daze prevents taking offensive actions (you can still defend), but does not otherwise inhibit a creature - for one round. Stunning's better, but hardly a fight-ender by itself. Neither of them affect saves, so there's no easy instakills. Blasphemy/Holy word is a great spell, but .... attrition. You only get a few of them and loading up on them means you give up other options. Not to mention that it has SR affects, so there's no guarantee that it will take effect. And I don't think saying that the guy who wrote the rules and specifically discussed the effect of attrition of design is wrong is going to earn you a lot of pixie points.

 

How exactly do you plan on challenging them with minions' date=' afterward? They should still have spells two levels lower than their highest slot, and because spells are ridiculously awesome at every level they will be almost as effective. Or they can just Rope Trick themselves away and get full again the moment that spell is available to be cast.[/quote']

 

The last party that tried ropetricking away from combat soon found their hideaway dispelled (spells can't reach into the rope trick area unless they are transdimensional, but the spell description specifically notes that the window is present on the material plane) and dropped into the midst of a welcoming party, especially collected for them. Two of them still managed to get away As for minions, I gave an example of how you challenge a party in my last post - Trolls are only CR5, but a throw a bunch of them at a group of level 11 PCs without much in the way of spell firepower left and they're .... chewy - especially in the open, where it was hard to prevent them getting at the ground-bound casters.

 

After Assay Spell Resistance went through' date=' why didn't they just use Plane Shift (or better yet, Slay Living because fey have poor fortitude saves) instead of Flamestrike (same spell level) to instantly kill her? Did the cleric not have a level 1 wand (cost: 750 gp) to use for healing? Regardless of those sorts of combat question though...that choice you presented doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. If the party wasn't on a time crunch, why wouldn't they just stop and take their rest so they would be at full power for the next encounter? If there's no penalty for doing so, there's no reason not to it and it's near suicidal (as you showed) to not do so.[/quote']

 

Because an army of Red Wizards and minions were invading Rashamen, and we needed to catch up with the defending army before the decisive battle. You can't always sit around (in fact, for our group, we don't often get a chance to rest up all the time mid-adventure: if we did, we'd never get anywhere). Last time we hid out in an extra dimensional bolthole, when we came out the bad guys had decamped - taking almost all the loot with them (that was last game, in fact, after the "Run Away" I mentioned above: very annoying).

 

As for your suggested spells, Slay Living is Evil/Necromantic and thus not on the CG cleric's spell list and Plane Shift is a touch spell with will negates: the cleric was far happier standing back out of melee and blasting, given that even if the target made all her saves (and she did) Flamestrike was still inflicting significant damage. Odds are good that planeshift would have just fizzled on a will save leaving the archer cleric standing in melee, in difficult terrain: not a great choice. And yes, we have the cheapo healing wands (my PC alone has two) but ... attrition again. On the current run we've already used up two of the five we started with. In hindsight, we should have burned through another one, instead of using spells, but hindsight's like that

 

cheers, Mark

[Surgo]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

I don't think our views are that far apart here, so I hope you're not getting annoyed going back-and-forth with me.

 

Cite? I don't think there is any such thing as "stunlock" in 3.5. The closest you can come is daze

I was actually referring to daze. Worst comes to worst you can just throw all your level 1 spells at the problem (color spray stuns at any number of hit dice), but there are spells at every level that can accomplish that sort of effect. The stunlock comes into affect when you have multiple party members doing this to one guy, so there's a high probability they'll fail at least one of the saves. This isn't much of a problem in many-dude encounters.

 

Ummm. No. The d20SRD is here, and it says quite explicitly...

I didn't quote the whole thing here because italics and bold keep messing up in quotes for some reason. I suppose this is just a difference in interpretation -- it never says it must be the same time each day, it just says you have to pick a time and rest for an hour to regain your spells.

 

Also? I have the MIC PDF and just scanned it for sleep, rest and recovery. I find no such item. None of our gaming group has even heard of such an item. I'll have to be ... sceptical.

Heward's Fortifying Bedroll. Yes, it's as stupid as it sounds.

 

And I don't think saying that the guy who wrote the rules and specifically discussed the effect of attrition of design is wrong is going to earn you a lot of pixie points.

I'm not looking to win any points.

 

The last party that tried ropetricking away from combat soon found their hideaway dispelled (spells can't reach into the rope trick area unless they are transdimensional, but the spell description specifically notes that the window is present on the material plane) and dropped into the midst of a welcoming party, especially collected for them.

Where on earth did they ropetrick that was visible?! Tactical fail on the allies/enemies part, heh. (But good thinking for whoever did the dispel).

 

Because an army of Red Wizards and minions were invading Rashamen, and we needed to catch up with the defending army before the decisive battle.

Yeah, this is the part where attrition makes sense and is completely believable. Where I specifically get off the train though is where this is always happening -- I start to wonder what the hell is up with the world.

 

I don't think our views are necessarily too far apart, and I'm okay with the depletion model at times. It's when it becomes too frequent that it starts to seriously strain credibility. The rest of this post is just minor stuff...

 

As for your suggested spells, Slay Living is Evil/Necromantic and thus not on the CG cleric's spell list

Slay Living is not [Evil], just [Death]; good clerics are allowed to cast [Death] spells (in fact they are only restricted from casting [Evil] spells (and I guess [Lawful] in your cleric's case)). Slay Living is also a touch spell, but the Cleric is an extremely durable class, they shouldn't fear moving up there. Truth be told at level 11 combat is less about "front" and "back" positioning anyway because that doesn't matter like it does at, say, level 6.

 

Anyway, a troll only has a will save of +3 so you should be able to instantly win that encounter with a wand of Minor Image (and depending on how your DM does illusion rules (every DM is different because they don't make any sense)), possibly even without a save. Might want to get one of those next time you're in town too :-P

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Can I play too?

 

I was actually referring to daze. Worst comes to worst you can just throw all your level 1 spells at the problem (color spray stuns at any number of hit dice)' date=' but there are spells at every level that can accomplish that sort of effect. The stunlock comes into affect when you have multiple party members doing this to one guy, so there's a high probability they'll fail at least one of the saves. This isn't much of a problem in many-dude encounters.[/quote']

 

Saves against lower level spells are easier to make, and every party member casting a Daze or Color Spray spell is one less attacking.

 

I didn't quote the whole thing here because italics and bold keep messing up in quotes for some reason. I suppose this is just a difference in interpretation -- it never says it must be the same time each day' date=' it just says you have to pick a time and rest for an hour to regain your spells.[/quote']

 

I think you are making a very generous and disingenous read to conclude the time at which a cleric regains his spells is not fixed. As well, I believe there is aloso a statement somewhere in the rules that, if the cleric misses that time slot, he must meditate ASAP thereafter or cannot regain spells that day. PHB p 179; SRD at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm. That seems to clarify matters greatly.

 

Heward's Fortifying Bedroll. Yes' date=' it's as stupid as it sounds.[/quote']

 

Found one here, Markdoc - http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/heward-s-fortifying-bedroll. I would specifically note the reminder that "Spells cast within the last 8 hours still count against your daily limit as normal." so any spells cast in the seven hours preceding the start of that one hour sleep cannot be recovered. Also, you cannot use it again for 48 hours.

 

Where on earth did they ropetrick that was visible?! Tactical fail on the allies/enemies part' date=' heh. (But good thinking for whoever did the dispel).[/quote']

 

Lots of things can see invisible things, either by nature or by magic. A simple Detect Magic will show a magical something up there. As well, they climb the rope one by one, so it takes some time to enter the space. Relying on being undetected and unsuspected may not be all that prudent. I had a friend once refer to sleeping in the enemy fortress/caves/etc. as similar to "Breaking and entering to someone's house, gathering up half their valuable stuff, then taking a nap on their couch before finishing your robbery and leaving".

 

Yeah' date=' this is the part where attrition makes sense and is completely believable. Where I specifically get off the train though is where this is always happening -- I start to wonder what the hell is up with the world.[/quote']

 

Having all the time in the world is generally not the case in most heroic fiction. The "one encounter, then bed down" approach lacks verissimilitude in my view. First, you don't wake up, break camp, travel 15 minutes, have a battle and go back to sleep. You aren't sleepy. So you're camping 23 hours plus. The assumption no one else is doing anything in that period seems a bit forced. The creatures in the next room just wait until you open the door and break the stasis field they reside in while awaiting adventurers, the sole purpose of their wretched existences?

 

Anyway' date=' a troll only has a will save of +3 so you should be able to instantly win that encounter with a wand of Minor Image (and depending on how your DM does illusion rules (every DM is different because they don't make any sense)), possibly even without a save. Might want to get one of those next time you're in town too :-P[/color']

 

A minor image of what? Minor Images provide visual and a bit of audio illusions, but affect no other senses. Fire isn't even warm, nor does its smoke smell. Please remember that Trolls have the Scent feat, so they have a pretty solid sense of smell. They aren't overly bright, but they aren't brain dead either. Illusions used creatively can be pretty potent, but they aren't without limitations.

[Surgo]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Can I play too?

Sure!

Saves against lower level spells are easier to make, and every party member casting a Daze or Color Spray spell is one less attacking.

Yes, I am not contesting this, and it is why it does not work as well against groups. The point is if everyone hits them with their stunning abilities, the one guy isn't going to get to act. As long as one person on your team can act, you win by default.

I think you are making a very generous and disingenous read to conclude the time at which a cleric regains his spells is not fixed. As well, I believe there is aloso a statement somewhere in the rules that, if the cleric misses that time slot, he must meditate ASAP thereafter or cannot regain spells that day. PHB p 179; SRD at http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/divineSpells.htm. That seems to clarify matters greatly.

I do not own a copy of the Player's Handbook; we'll just have to disagree intractably on this point. I do see where people would take a different interpretation than me, however.

Lots of things can see invisible things, either by nature or by magic. A simple Detect Magic will show a magical something up there. As well, they climb the rope one by one, so it takes some time to enter the space. Relying on being undetected and unsuspected may not be all that prudent. I had a friend once refer to sleeping in the enemy fortress/caves/etc. as similar to "Breaking and entering to someone's house, gathering up half their valuable stuff, then taking a nap on their couch before finishing your robbery and leaving".

Yeah, no kidding, but you can also do basic hiding (not the hide skill). Put the entrance in a tree and it's blocked from invisible sight. Getting away from detect magic is harder, but because detect magic is duration: concentration, this is bypassible (especially if you hide in plain sight; this is D&D land, after all). The thing that really bones you is arcane sight, not detect magic.

 

Though most DMs seem to act like detect magic works like arcane sight does.

 

Having all the time in the world is generally not the case in most heroic fiction. The "one encounter, then bed down" approach lacks verissimilitude in my view. First, you don't wake up, break camp, travel 15 minutes, have a battle and go back to sleep. You aren't sleepy. So you're camping 23 hours plus. The assumption no one else is doing anything in that period seems a bit forced. The creatures in the next room just wait until you open the door and break the stasis field they reside in while awaiting adventurers, the sole purpose of their wretched existences?

D&D does not model heroic fiction well at all, so this is not surprising. The verisimilitude problem is entirely because spells like rope trick and, later, greater plane shift exist in D&D. When you have that sort of thing, you expect people to sneak off. This becomes a much larger problem in higher level adventures because you can plane shift to places where time moves extremely quickly relative to the prime (thus neatly avoiding the problems of rope trick, especially that where the world moves on without you).

A minor image of what? Minor Images provide visual and a bit of audio illusions, but affect no other senses. Fire isn't even warm, nor does its smoke smell. Please remember that Trolls have the Scent feat, so they have a pretty solid sense of smell. They aren't overly bright, but they aren't brain dead either. Illusions used creatively can be pretty potent, but they aren't without limitations.

I actually meant silent image, which is even more limited. A few ideas come to mind immediately:

 

1) A silent image of a rock wall or some other form of impassable screen where the party used to be. If the party moves far enough back, they're out of scent range so the trolls won't know WTF.

2) A silent image of a really big dustcloud surrounding the trolls. They'll be blinded, and scent doesn't pinpoint a creature's exact location so you get the benefits of a 50% miss chance on top of making the trolls guess which square is yours in the first place.

3) A silent image of a chasm between you and the trolls. If you want to be really fun, make it a chasm with a fire pit at the bottom. Use magical blue fire if you're feeling cheeky, so the trolls have a plausable reason to believe its smokeless (and thus not get a save). It's not "really" there but it doesn't matter: trolls aren't suicidal. They're not going to walk over it in the first place (and, because of how illusions work, they won't even get a save to disbelieve it). Even if they do get a save, lol +3 will save.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Yes' date=' I am not contesting this, and it is why it does not work as well against groups. The point is if everyone hits them with their stunning abilities, the one guy isn't going to get to act. As long as one person on your team can act, you win by default.[/quote']

 

You’ll be burning a lot of spells in the process, so there’s a pretty solid limit on how long you can keep this up. Added to that, a lot of spells that lock targets down only work against certain types of targets. “Oh, turns out he was a very live-appearing Undead, so those Dazes and Hold Persons are all wasted.” Of course, there’s no way for the characters to perceive that any differently than “he must have made all the saves” on a round by round basis.

 

I do not own a copy of the Player's Handbook; we'll just have to disagree intractably on this point.

 

Do you own a computer with internet access? Follow the link to the SRD. Tell you what, I’ll quote it here. It makes it tough to do rules research, but a Google search limited to a specific SRD site should pull up “preparing spells” sections.

 

“Preparing Spells, searching http://www.d20srd.org, doesn’t find it. “Preparing divine spells” finds it without restricting the search to one site. “Divine Spells” gets 47 hits, none of which obviously hold the answer.

 

In any case, even if it were not in the SRD, the PHB is the rules, so your disagreement is with the rules themselves, not with me. Guess what? If you don’t know all the rules, you’re likely to get results that don’t match the game as designed. That’s not the designer’s fault.

Time of Day

A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

I think this makes it very clear that the time cannot vary from day to day.

 

Yeah' date=' no kidding, but you can also do basic hiding (not the hide skill). Put the entrance in a tree and it's blocked from invisible sight. Getting away from detect magic is harder, but because detect magic is duration: concentration, this is bypassible (especially if you hide in plain sight; this is D&D land, after all). The thing that really bones you is arcane sight, not detect magic.[/quote']

 

“In a tree”? First off, the rope rises straight up. Second, the characters (in their bulky armor, with their heavy backpacks) need to climb the rope, which is going to leave quite a mess of broken branches and leaves in their wake if they’re passing through tree branches. Third, you need a tree. If you are going looking for a better spot for that rope trick, that means you have to pass through (presumably) enemy territory, unless the encounter occurred when you and they were just randomly wandering the wilderness.

 

Once I know the rough location, it’s pretty easy to target with a Dispel Magic. Detect Magic has a 60’ range, and the Rope Trick can be no more than 30’ up. The Detect provides plenty of time to roughly triangulate if I know the approximate area you disappeared from.

 

If you’re now suggesting that you don’t just fire off the rope trick from the site of the combat, but backing out to find a more easily concealable location (which also means the caster doesn‘t know precisely where to start looking, making Detect Magic much more chancy), you are also providing time for the other occupants to come across the scene of the combat, fortify their defences, plan an ambush, depart (with their loot) or take other appropriate actions based on their goals and abilities.

 

D&D does not model heroic fiction well at all' date=' so this is not surprising. The verisimilitude problem is entirely [i']because[/i] spells like rope trick and, later, greater plane shift exist in D&D. When you have that sort of thing, you expect people to sneak off. This becomes a much larger problem in higher level adventures because you can plane shift to places where time moves extremely quickly relative to the prime (thus neatly avoiding the problems of rope trick, especially that where the world moves on without you).

 

D&D models heroic fiction as well or as poorly as its players want it to. Plane Shift? Note that

Precise accuracy as to a particular arrival location on the intended plane is nigh impossible. From the Material Plane' date=' you can reach any other plane, though you appear 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from your intended destination.[/quote']

 

All you need to do is figure out where you are, on your return (which required another 5th level spell after you rested and regained spells) within a radius of up to 500 miles, then get there. That will also provide the occupants with time to react to your previous actions.

 

I actually meant silent image, which is even more limited. A few ideas come to mind immediately:

 

1) A silent image of a rock wall or some other form of impassable screen where the party used to be. If the party moves far enough back, they're out of scent range so the trolls won't know WTF.

 

If the Trolls have not yet seen them, this works fine (so long as the caster can maintain concentration until the Trolls give up. If they have already seen you and are charging? Not so much – some of them would probably crash into a rock wall, which means they crash right through the image. Let’s look to cinematic reality – how often do those monsters, faced with a REAL barrier, scratch and claw against it. Guess what? A silent image lacks texture, so the Troll’s claw goes right through.

 

Oh, and Scent allows tracking by smell, so just being more than 30’ away does not mean they cannot follow you. A trail that ends in a stone wall seems fishy enough to allow that Will save. At least the range is long, so you can be quite a ways away from the image.

 

This finally requires a constrained area. Even a L20 wizard with 24 10 foot cubes isn’t going to see much success with this tactic if he’s in natural terrain, but you’d use one of the other options then.

 

A character faced with proof that an illusion isn’t real needs no saving throw. If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others' date=' each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.[/quote']

 

Even if some occurrence does not make the illusion obvious, ONE successful save means all the other trolls move from +3 to +7. That probably means they come in waves instead of all at once (and when the second wave rolls in, the wounded first wave can back off and heal for a bit).

 

2) A silent image of a really big dustcloud surrounding the trolls. They'll be blinded' date=' and scent doesn't pinpoint a creature's exact location so you get the benefits of a 50% miss chance on top of making the trolls guess which square is yours in the first place.[/quote']

 

Possibly helpful. But that Cloud is limited to four 10’ cubes, plus one more per level. That caster is, again, stuck concentrating for the duration. That means he’s down to one move action per round.

 

Your allies are just as blind as the trolls, and lack the advantages of detection by scent within 30’ (differs if there’s wind), using a Move action to pinpoint direction to the scent (likely followed by a charge). “Within 5’ of the source, the creature can pinpoint that source” so no more miss chance. [http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm]

 

As well, if the fight takes twice as long (and the removal of a spellcaster plus a 50% miss chance will extend the fight), creatures with regeneration heal twice as much. PC’s also heal twice as much, but twice nothing is still nothing.

 

And given your generous interpretation of when saves are even possible, do the casters even GET a save? They’re just looking at the cloud from outside, so they’re not really interacting with the illusion. If they do, so do Trolls looking at a Silent Image of a stone wall. If they don’t, they have to get pretty close before they can perceive Trolls to target spells (or see that Warrior who just went down and desperately needs healing).

 

The PC’s likely have better saves, but the trolls’ scent gives them a significant advantage. The higher level the PC’s (and thus the better their will saves), the more trolls are likely there. If the PC’s know it’s an illusion, they get that +4 bonus, but who tells them without the Trolls hearing them? And, again, one successful Troll save and they’re all getting that +4 as well.

 

Is it convincing? The dust has no smell, swirls around with no sound of wind, and doesn’t feel gritty. Seems a bit off, somehow.

 

3) A silent image of a chasm between you and the trolls. If you want to be really fun' date=' make it a chasm with a fire pit at the bottom. Use magical blue fire if you're feeling cheeky, so the trolls have a plausable reason to believe its smokeless (and thus not get a save). It's not "really" there but it doesn't matter: trolls aren't suicidal. They're not going to walk over it in the first place (and, because of how illusions work, they won't even get a save to disbelieve it). Even if they do get a save, lol +3 will save.[/quote']

 

Again, this presupposes there is enough initial distance between you and the trolls to put the chasm between them without them skidding over onto the illusion while they try to stop. And only one of them needs to save for the whole group to move up to +7. Finally, back to concentrating. If the Trolls go “oh darn” and walk away, you’re safe. If not, you have to stay within range (at least that’s a healthy distance) to maintain the illusion.

 

And you need enough distance to make the chasm wide enough to deter the trolls. STR gives them a +6 Jump roll, so 5’ is a joke, 10 and 15’ will more likely than not be cleared, and savage trolls that try to find their way around fire and keep attacking may take a shot at longer jumps. 20’? A third of them will make it, and another third would be “clinging to the edge”.

 

So it needs to be at least 20’ wide to have any impact. And you only get (at 20th level) 24 10’ cubes. So that’s a 120’ wide chasm, 10’ deep, at 20th level. It’s an even bet between trolls that jump and trolls that run around the chasm. And they’ll be taking two 30’ moves, possibly even running, where your Wizard gets only one move action unless he stops concentrating on the spell, in which case no more chasm.

 

Silent Image works very well in the right circumstances, typically with room for advance planning, and ideally cast before the opponent sees it. It’s not the uberspell you seem to credit it with. Of course, if you decide to set Illusion rules that make illusions unlikely to mandate a save, ignore the impact of missing sensory data, etc. then they can easily become overly powerful. In which case I’d expect you to face opponents using similar tactics.