Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

I prefer to use Hero to run a fantasy game, mainly because I like the flexibility. It's a major time-sink to create a new campaign, get everyone characters, and make sure that they're familiar with the rules though. I find myself looking for simpler alternatives. I've thought about Fudge, Tri-Stat dX, and, recently Savage Worlds. The latter looks like something that I might be able to use to quickly get everything together for my next campaign. I wouldn't consider D&D/Pathfinder, mainly because I don't want to be constantly flipping between books to figure out which exception has precedence.

 

JoeG

 

I have the Fudge systym and D6 system (yes there is a generic form of d6!). Why Hero is better than each of them as a generic system is Hero gives more structure on how to use your generic system. Trust me D6 system is very loose on structure, and little on guidance. Maybe its first love but Hero can't replace Battletech for Mech combat (now it could for the Mechwarrior part) nor WEG D6 for Star Wars.

[bluesguy]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

When Champions first came out, all those many years ago, the group I was gaming with was pretty tired of playing fantasy games (AD&D). We played in a Champions campaign that was Marvel based universe but far away from the main Marvel action.

 

When Fantasy Hero came out it was a natural to stop using AD&D because we were all sick of the rigid rules about character creation. We also liked the fact that we moved away from the attitude of "I am a 10th level ranger, those 20 orcs don't scare me." to "Dang 20 orcs I wonder if we/I should run away and fight another day." A couple of lucky hits and you might be dead.

 

I just started RPG again after a ~20 year break. I had gotten rid of all my material (rule books, source material, everything :-( ) a long time ago. When I went looking for rule system, Hero was the natural choice. The rules have changed a lot (no figured characteristics was the biggest surprise) but the system still has all the flexibility I love.

 

I would say the biggest problem is how long combat can take. On occasion I now do dice less combat where we role play the combat out. This works well for quick combat where the players are suppose to easily dispatch the opposition. But when they are taking on the main encounter a battle can take an hour or more, which of course in the campaign world was only 24 to 36 seconds .

[Zen Archer]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

I would say the biggest problem is how long combat can take.

 

This.

 

My first experiences with Champions were pretty dismal since GMs would just do everything to get to the fight because they knew how long it would take. Playing a detective or scientist type was pointless because you would be spoon fed everything you needed so the combat could begin, and said combats were more often than not dull.

 

In later Champions and Fantasy Hero games we decided to focus more on role-playing and such, which was more to our liking. The combats still took longer than we would have liked, but we got over it.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Why does the barrier to entry have to be so high?

 

It doesn't need to be. The next question is, "How do we lower it?" Hero already publishes some aids.

• Pre-generated monsters (Hero System Bestiary)
  
• Pre-generated spells (Hero System Grimoire)
  
• Special fighting techniques and combat maneuvers (Hero System Martial Arts)
  

However, I can think of other ways to help novice GMs and players.

• Lists of archetypes, similar to those in the back of Champions. Pick your archetype, a set of stats from table A, skills from table B, tricks or spells from table C, complications from table D, and 90% of the work is done.
  
• Lists of magic items.
  
• Examples of magic system creation.
  
• More fighting tricks/feats, monsters, spells, etc.
  

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

This.

 

My first experiences with Champions were pretty dismal since GMs would just do everything to get to the fight because they knew how long it would take. Playing a detective or scientist type was pointless because you would be spoon fed everything you needed so the combat could begin, and said combats were more often than not dull.

 

In later Champions and Fantasy Hero games we decided to focus more on role-playing and such, which was more to our liking. The combats still took longer than we would have liked, but we got over it.

 

I find it odd when people say "combat takes too long". I've seen longer combats, and shorter, in other systems. Hero is customizable - YOU decide how long combat will last.

 

One easy way to make it faster - take all the opponent character sheets, add 3 DC's to all their attacks and take 10 off all their defenses. Combat will go a lot faster, as every hit on both sides gets 10 more STUN through on average.

 

If you want faster combats, look at character design. If characters have 35 defenses, 75 STUN and 25 REC, and the attacks do 12d6, combat will take a very long time. Scale back the defenses or bump up the attacks. If characters have 25 defenses, 50 STUN and 15 REC, those combats will run a lot faster.

 

Look at OCV and DCV - how often will a blow land? Look at average damage vs average defenses - how many hits will it take to eliminate the average total STUN? Recovery will factor in if it will take a turn or more to land all those blows.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

It doesn't need to be. The next question is' date=' "How do we lower it?" Hero already publishes some aids.[/quote']

 

Setting books which set campaign parameters, provide (or reference) standardized builds and set out the archetypes, magic systems, etc. used in this campaign would work. That's all D&D is - you don't get the tools to build anything, just the pre-builds. Want more pre-builds? Buy more books!

 

But then we get the criticism that you have to buy too many books to play Hero - the barrier to entry is now economics.

 

An amazing number of D&D/PF games would have the same effort required if GM's built a campaign setting restricting which races, classes, spells, feats, etc. could be used, and perhaps customizing some, rather than "Anything in the books goes"

[Zen Archer]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

I find it odd when people say "combat takes too long". I've seen longer combats' date=' and shorter, in other systems. [/quote']

 

Sure. My experiences just happen to be different. In my case, longer combats in other game systems were designed to be just that - longer combats. Combats in HERO tended to take longer for us in general.

 

 

Hero is customizable - YOU decide how long combat will last.

 

Technically, the GM has the final call on how combat is handled. Also technically, and I am not trying to be pedantic, every system is customizable.

 

You list several good suggestions - all of which my fellow players and GMs took into account back in the day. That we still played and enjoyed HERO even with our issues with the combat says a lot for the system.

[thewomble]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

• Lists of archetypes, similar to those in the back of Champions. Pick your archetype, a set of stats from table A, skills from table B, tricks or spells from table C, complications from table D, and 90% of the work is done.
  

 

Good idea. I'd like to see a pdf supplement like that to quickly create Fantasy Hero characters.

 

 

• Lists of magic items.
  

 

There was the 5e book.

 

 

• Examples of magic system creation.
  

 

FH has about 14 magic system examples. With that and the Grimoire, there's plenty of worked examples to get your motor running.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

FH has about 14 magic system examples. With that and the Grimoire' date=' there's plenty of worked examples to get your motor running.[/quote']

 

I was thinking of something that went more into the design process, like "Mongoose kung fu" in HSMA.

[JmOz]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Hero is one of two systems I will run. The other is Savage Worlds.

 

Having said that both games give me a very different thing, in savage worlds there is more freedom as a GM. things work becasue I say they do. Hero however helps me scratch that builders itch so much better. It is not unusual for me to start my world building in Hero, and convert it to SW

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

• Lists of archetypes, similar to those in the back of Champions. Pick your archetype, a set of stats from table A, skills from table B, tricks or spells from table C, complications from table D, and 90% of the work is done.
  
• Lists of magic items.
  
• Examples of magic system creation.
  
• More fighting tricks/feats, monsters, spells, etc.
  

 

These are all the kinds of things I'm talking about. Support items usable out of the box.

[Old Man]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Because the rules are designed to simulate any genre. That means' date=' by default, they simulate none. Even the very basic setup for any campaign requires some dials to be turned (CV Max, DC Max, Def Max, Speed Max) and switches to be flipped (Off/Knockdown/Knockback, Off/Characteristic Maxima, etc). That's the easy part. Now you have to start the genre simulation. How does the magic system work? What powers can the characters use? How does magic integrate alongside faith-based powers (does a Dispel Magic spell affect faith-based effects and vice-verse)? Are there even faith-based powers to integrate with? How permanent are effects? Does magic require a skill roll? The questions can go on and on.[/quote']

 

This is pretty much what I was getting at earlier. If some future Hero edition could just collect all these dials in one place and provide some guidance for new GMs on how to set them for the desired campaign grittiness and setting, it would go a long way toward lowering the learning curve. Not as far as providing a prepackaged setting that had all of them preset, but Hero Games' ownership seems to have been dead set against any such 'restrictive' material since at least 1988.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

This is pretty much what I was getting at earlier. If some future Hero edition could just collect all these dials in one place and provide some guidance for new GMs on how to set them for the desired campaign grittiness and setting' date=' it would go a long way toward lowering the learning curve. Not as far as providing a prepackaged setting that had all of them preset, but Hero Games' ownership seems to have been dead set against any such 'restrictive' material since at least 1988.[/quote']

 

Maybe call it an Advanced Gamemaster's Guide?

[Lucius]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Maybe call it an Advanced Gamemaster's Guide?

 

No, I don't think so.

 

Because it's not "advanced." We're talking about something meant specifically for beginners.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedaries for Dummies

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Because it's not "advanced." We're talking about something meant specifically for beginners.

 

Although I think such a book, done right, would probably also include lots of good advice and "Hey, y'know I never thought about that" moments for experienced GMs too. Hmm...

[Ternaugh]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

I have the Fudge systym and D6 system (yes there is a generic form of d6!). Why Hero is better than each of them as a generic system is Hero gives more structure on how to use your generic system. Trust me D6 system is very loose on structure' date=' and little on guidance. Maybe its first love but Hero can't replace Battletech for Mech combat (now it could for the Mechwarrior part) nor WEG D6 for Star Wars.[/quote']

 

The person who ran the only Fudge game that I've played in was one of the original (named) playtesters for Fudge many years before. It generally worked because he made it work. It's a little too free-form for me.

 

Tonight, we played a Star Wars game based upon the 2nd edition WEG rules. Play was fast and furious, and a lot of fun. The generic D6 system probably wouldn't be what I'd want to use for my fantasy game, though.

 

Same goes for Tri-Stat dX, though it does look like an interesting system.

 

What I'd like to do in my next campaign world could be done in Hero--though it would require a substantial amount of work on my part.

 

After reviewing Savage Worlds, I'm confident that some things in my new campaign could be easily done using "off the shelf" stuff with Savage Worlds. There will still be some tweaking, but nowhere near the level of work needed to write everything up in Hero. The group already plays Deadlands, so even the basics of the rules will be somewhat similar.

 

JoeG

[Ternaugh]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Good idea. I'd like to see a pdf supplement like that to quickly create Fantasy Hero characters.

 

 

 

There was the 5e book.

 

 

 

FH has about 14 magic system examples. With that and the Grimoire, there's plenty of worked examples to get your motor running.

 

The Grimoire was essentially magic as produced for Turakian Age. For my needs, the spells are generally overpowered, and require extensive modification to fit into one of my games. For me, it felt too much like Champions re-skinned as fantasy. Earlier versions, like FH/FHC/FHC2 for Hero System 4 tended to start with lower power levels, and then allow the GM to boost them if desired. As in cooking, it's often easier in Hero to add to a design than to take away.

 

I was thinking of something that went more into the design process' date=' like "Mongoose kung fu" in HSMA.[/quote']

 

This would be extremely helpful. So much of what FH is now is essentially a discussion of cooking techniques and ingredients, without any example recipes.

 

JoeG

[Tasha]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

I have the Fudge systym and D6 system (yes there is a generic form of d6!). Why Hero is better than each of them as a generic system is Hero gives more structure on how to use your generic system. Trust me D6 system is very loose on structure' date=' and little on guidance. Maybe its first love but Hero can't replace Battletech for Mech combat (now it could for the Mechwarrior part) nor WEG D6 for Star Wars.[/quote']

 

My guess is that you never played Robot Warriors. All that you love about Hero, scaled up into Giant Robotic Goodness. It's not quite a crunchy as Battletech, but it did Cinematic Giant Robot games like crazy. The book really needed to be edited better, but the game was quite fun.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

My guess is that you never played Robot Warriors. All that you love about Hero' date=' scaled up into Giant Robotic Goodness. It's not quite a crunchy as Battletech, but it did Cinematic Giant Robot games like crazy. The book really needed to be edited better, but the game was quite fun.[/quote']

 

Actually I have the Robot Warriors. But, yes I never got to play it. : ( Being honest though, my hurdle to playing Robot Warriors will be-"That its not Battletech". I'm sure that playing Robot Warriors is fun but it would be different. I love the blasted heat scale, and worring about ammo crits! (I stick with year 3025 and level 2 rules and for time we run light mech, but I'm going to try medium next time.) Its like me eating Lebanon Bolana, its not so much as good, as it reminds me of home.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Maybe call it an Advanced Gamemaster's Guide?

 

I was thinking Fantasy Hero Companion.

[RexMundi]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

I prefer HERO for my Fantasy games...

 

Because I can replicate Everything Ever done in a Howard, Tolkein, Anderson, Cook, White, Hardy, Freidman, Lee, Le Guin, Leiber, Moorcock, Weber, Drake, Knaack, Brust, Wagner, Martin, Zelazney Vance, Smith, Dunsay, etc etc etc etc...... Combine it all, and make it work with a tailored system of combat and as Mr. Long pointed out, a Magic (or lack of) that fits and works perfectly....

 

~Rex....

[McCoy]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

I've really only played 3 systems.

 

D&D, it was the first.

 

RuneQuest, got rid of character class, levels and other stuff I didn't like about D&D, make skills more important.

 

Champions/Hero System. STUN vs BODY. Now every conflict didn't have to be to the death. Why had no one thought about that before?

 

Yes, Hero has other advantages, but that is the one that made me never look back.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

The mechanics.

 

HERO is so internally consistent that I can easily arbitrate any in-game situation that comes up with no trouble whatsoever.

 

The combat.

 

HERO combat works the way I like combat to flow in my games.

 

The Magic.

 

As others have pointed out...ultimately customizable. I can make it work how I want it to work.

 

The Beasts.

 

I can make them as threatening or as pathetic as I want. I can easily customize a creature template to make something unique and interesting for the PC's to encounter.

 

The Speed Chart.

 

More actions, more better.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Off topic, but Tasha now I got the convert Robot Warriors to 5th bug again. One of my biggest hurddles is dealing with scale. Robot Warriors deals with a 16m hex, and Battletech a 30m hex but standard Hero is of course 2m. Any suggestions on dealing with scale? (And without handwaviuem, this is of course Hero! : ) )

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Why I prefer HERO System over Pathfinder/OGL/D&D for fantasy

 

Off topic' date=' but Tasha now I got the convert Robot Warriors to 5th bug again. One of my biggest hurddles is dealing with scale. Robot Warriors deals with a 16m hex, and Battletech a 30m hex but standard Hero is of course 2m. Any suggestions on dealing with scale? (And without handwaviuem, this is of course Hero! : ) )[/quote']

 

Simply use x10 scale hexes. 1 hex equals 20 meters. Its pretty simple really. The only thing that is really effected is movement and the range/area aspect of weapons and abilities. As far as movement and range is concerned, build as normal then divide by 10 to get the Robot Warriors-Revised equivalent. Not really "hand-wavium" at all, just a simple mathematical adjustment.