M44 offhand @ 500 yards

[Kaze9999]

So just in game terms, what would I have to Skill and Stat the guy in the video to do this, assuming the numbers he gives are accurate?

 

 

 

Of course, he is from Kentucky...so there's that.

[Zeropoint]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Yeah, using a tool to do exactly what it was designed to do is sure a mind-boggling feat.

 

But, that's still some fine shooting for offhand with iron sights!

[Killer Shrike]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

sights only 500 yards from the standing, offhand or not, is pretty bad ass if legit.

 

Back in my USMC days I could only go about 7 out of 10 shots from 500 yards in the PRONE position with a well zeroed M16, taking time to aim each shot and adjust for windage.

 

I don't know the specs on that bolt action rifle he's using, but still...that guy didn't even seem to be using a ready sling and he tossed that shot off almost casually.

 

So...IMO...he's either spectacularly skilled or its a hoax.

[Ragitsu]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Keep in mind that shooting on a range is one thing, and shooting in combat is another.

[Manic Typist]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

And who knows how many takes that was. I'm not saying he is not necessarily skilled, but it looked to me as if the bullet hit near the edge of the target (not center mass).

 

 

So maybe if he took the time to consider wind and aim with his... dominant hand? Whatever term is opposite for "off-hand" it would have been a better hit?

[RexMundi]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

So just in game terms, what would I have to Skill and Stat the guy in the video to do this, assuming the numbers he gives are accurate?

 

 

 

Of course, he is from Kentucky...so there's that.

 

Area Effect 1 hex Accurate naked Advantage and a few Range levels. Nice shooting though. Got a few guys out here at the range that were able to duplicate it.

 

~Rex

[RexMundi]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

The Mosin Nagant had a really nice showing on the first episode of Top Guns as well. It's a good solid well built bolt action rifle (though you gotta be a man to work the bolt), more then capable of making that shot.

 

~Rex

[Killer Shrike]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Keep in mind that shooting on a range is one thing' date=' and shooting in [i']combat[/i] is another.

 

At close range at moving targets while being shot at, sure. But shooting from a safe position at a stationary / unsuspecting target from 500 yards? Not so much.

 

Windage, stability, good body mechanics, aligned sights, and technique are what's going to let you hit the target.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Area Effect 1 hex Accurate naked Advantage and a few Range levels. Nice shooting though. Got a few guys out here at the range that were able to duplicate it.

 

~Rex

 

Tip of my hat to them then. I don't think I could make that shot off handed, at least not reliably enough to call it skill.

 

I actually tried to "qual" with with my left (off) hand once. I missed Marksman by 1 point and the problem for me was I dropped too many shots in the standing position. Sitting, kneeling, and prone I could lock in and overcome the left-handed awkwardness, but for some reason standing I kept overcompensating and pulling off target, even with a ready sling. If I practiced shooting off-handed I could have improved the score probably, but I couldn't risk it and switched back to right handed the next run to make sure I qual'd.

[Ragitsu]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

At close range at moving targets while being shot at, sure. But shooting from a safe position at a stationary / unsuspecting target from 500 yards? Not so much.

 

Windage, stability, good body mechanics, aligned sights, and technique are what's going to let you hit the target.

 

Well...assuming he can do the same thing against a human being, with slightly worse conditions (including a lack of familiarity of the area), then i'd call that combat useful.

 

Having said that, I think that if there isn't already some sort of OCV bonus for being on a range with statistics you've known many times over, there should be.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Actually, scratch that, I remembered that I wanted to use the sling for stability but had to keep the sling tight. I remember not being happy about that. I think I used a cradle grip instead.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Well...assuming he can do the same thing against a human being, with slightly worse conditions (including a lack of familiarity of the area), then i'd call that combat useful.

 

Me too!

 

Having said that, I think that if there isn't already some sort of OCV bonus for being on a range with statistics you've known many times over, there should be.

 

Perhaps; but I'd put more confidence in a windsock personally. Lighting and wind speed and direction are big variables.

[RexMundi]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Tip of my hat to them then. I don't think I could make that shot off handed, at least not reliably enough to call it skill.

 

I actually tried to "qual" with with my left (off) hand once. I missed Marksman by 1 point and the problem for me was I dropped too many shots in the standing position. Sitting, kneeling, and prone I could lock in and overcome the left-handed awkwardness, but for some reason standing I kept overcompensating and pulling off target, even with a ready sling. If I practiced shooting off-handed I could have improved the score probably, but I couldn't risk it and switched back to right handed the next run to make sure I qual'd.

 

Yeah I had the same issue. I shoot with a lot of pros though so I wasn't too surprised when they all started showing off. That shots way beyond me standing, could probably do it prone or kneeling but only with a big bolt action like the M44. I'm an IRC guy so big and clunky works better for me heh. Going out this weekend to shoot, have to get my friend Paul to drag his M44 along again just to see where the limits are...

 

~Rex

[Zeropoint]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Back in my USMC days I could only go about 7 out of 10 shots from 500 yards in the PRONE position with a well zeroed M16, taking time to aim each shot and adjust for windage.

 

Well, I am not an expert on the subject, but it's my understanding that the Mosin-Nagant is a full sized service rifle, built with the assumption that combat would be taking place at long ranges, while the M16 is an assault rifle, built on the assumption that combat is taking place at medium ranges, and also using a lighter round. The lighter bullet would be more susceptible to external influences, as it's not only lighter, but has a higher surface area to volume ratio.

 

In other words, that 30% miss rate might not be entirely your fault.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Actually, it is my fault. An ideal Marine rifleman should go 10 / 10 at 500 yards with the M16. Pretty much all Marines who qualify as Expert and most who qualify as Sharpshooter do every time they hit the rifle range. Marksman is the minimum acceptable qualification for a Marine; if you can't shoot at least Marksman you don't graduate basic training in the first place and if you can't re-qualify at least as a Marksman every two years thereafter you can pretty much forget about getting promoted. There's also smack talking privileges; a "mere" Marskman is called "pizza box" due to the square shape of the marksmanship badge that goes with it.

 

Every Marine is a rifleman, regardless of their actual job. I was a spook and never actually used my rifle operationally as it just got in the way (a pistol was far more practical), but I still had to know how to be proficient with a rifle and a number of other weapon systems just in case. Not that I'm complaining; I loved going to the range and playing with the toys; almost made me envy the grunts. My favorite was the Mark 19...loved those things.

 

Anyway, I was strong at the other positions, but struggled at the 500; I could expect 6 / 10, some days I'd get lucky and hit 7, and some days I'd go 5. Once I went 3 / 10, but luckily it was a pre-qual day. Still sucked.

 

 

And for the record, the M16 is accurate to 500 yards vs a point target, 800 yards burst, which is pretty much exactly equivalent to the scope-less Mosin-Nagant specs on wikipedia...which I'll take as correct as I'm not familiar with the weapon first hand.

[Manic Typist]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Marine Intel?

[Killer Shrike]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Ya. Good times!

[LordGhee]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

The answer to the Question is (in 5thr terms)

 

Target chest size -3 (it is stationary and brace so 0 DCV)

 

Range 500m so a penality of -12 (luckly he was not at 500m and one cm as that would have been a -14, one needs to know how to stage).

 

Target is at - 15

 

and no orther factors that I can estimate (wind, lighting ect).

 

 

 

Our shooter looks to be an average fit gentlemen.

 

so he has a good dex at 11 and that gives him a OCV of 3

 

He seems to have a familarity with the weapon so no minus there.

 

He dose not seem to be moving much so I would give him the brace maneuver for a +2 OCV and he took his time (set maneuver for a +1)

 

Total so far 6 OCV

 

now it does not look like he is firing at a off hand position but if he is this is a minus 3.

 

Long battle rifle normally +1 to ocv and +1 to range mod

 

total 5 OCV

 

If one assumes that he will hit 90% of the time he will need 12 skill levels, 14 or less to hit.

 

now class how can you buy those levels (used with most rifles at least) for the least amount of points?

 

Lord Ghee

 

 

he appears confident that he will make the shot

[Zeropoint]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Ah, but remember: the combat rules are just that: COMBAT rules. It's a heck of a lot easier to shoot accurately in a stress-free environment.

 

After all, the rules suggest that a person with average OCV and the appropriate Weapon Familiarity but no Skill Levels would miss a chest-sized target at one meter about half the time.

[RexMundi]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

The answer to the Question is (in 5thr terms)

 

Target chest size -3 (it is stationary and brace so 0 DCV)

 

Range 500m so a penality of -12 (luckly he was not at 500m and one cm as that would have been a -14, one needs to know how to stage).

 

Target is at - 15

 

and no orther factors that I can estimate (wind, lighting ect).

 

 

 

Our shooter looks to be an average fit gentlemen.

 

so he has a good dex at 11 and that gives him a OCV of 3

 

He seems to have a familarity with the weapon so no minus there.

 

He dose not seem to be moving much so I would give him the brace maneuver for a +2 OCV and he took his time (set maneuver for a +1)

 

Total so far 6 OCV

 

now it does not look like he is firing at a off hand position but if he is this is a minus 3.

 

Long battle rifle normally +1 to ocv and +1 to range mod

 

total 5 OCV

 

If one assumes that he will hit 90% of the time he will need 12 skill levels, 14 or less to hit.

 

now class how can you buy those levels (used with most rifles at least) for the least amount of points?

 

Lord Ghee

 

 

he appears confident that he will make the shot

 

Just wanted to remind the builders, before we all start in again that "Off Hand" in shooting doesn't mean you're shooting with your off hand. It means you're firing standing from the shoulder sans other support... Least amount of points without going aoe 1hex accurate. Penalty Skill Levels vs Range mods. More limitations can be added as well to make it pretty cheap.

 

~Rex

[Manic Typist]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

Ya. Good times!

 

I think I'm talking with a recruiter about that specific MOS next week.

 

 

And man, 12 Skill Levels? I'd probably award some situational bonus for it being on a range and not combat conditions, I'd guess. Also, we don't know how many takes that took... but I can believe that he honestly did it.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

I think I'm talking with a recruiter about that specific MOS next week.

 

Hrm..I thought you were older as you've been around on the boards a while, but your profile says 24.

 

If you do go Marines, and you do want intel, make sure you get a guarantee program specifically for the 02 field _only_ if they still offer it; it was called Uniform Romeo when I did it...uh...almost 20 years ago.

 

 

Holy crapola, I'm getting old :|

[Kaze9999]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

The answer to the Question is (in 5thr terms)

 

Target chest size -3 (it is stationary and brace so 0 DCV)

 

Range 500m so a penality of -12 (luckly he was not at 500m and one cm as that would have been a -14, one needs to know how to stage).

 

Target is at - 15

 

and no orther factors that I can estimate (wind, lighting ect).

 

 

 

Our shooter looks to be an average fit gentlemen.

 

so he has a good dex at 11 and that gives him a OCV of 3

 

He seems to have a familarity with the weapon so no minus there.

 

He dose not seem to be moving much so I would give him the brace maneuver for a +2 OCV and he took his time (set maneuver for a +1)

 

Total so far 6 OCV

 

now it does not look like he is firing at a off hand position but if he is this is a minus 3.

 

Long battle rifle normally +1 to ocv and +1 to range mod

 

total 5 OCV

 

If one assumes that he will hit 90% of the time he will need 12 skill levels, 14 or less to hit.

 

now class how can you buy those levels (used with most rifles at least) for the least amount of points?

 

Lord Ghee

 

 

he appears confident that he will make the shot

 

Thanks! I'm loving the whole thread of conversations, but that was basically what I wondered about.

[Markdoc]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

The answer to the Question is (in 5thr terms)

 

Target chest size -3 (it is stationary and brace so 0 DCV)

 

Range 500m so a penality of -12 (luckly he was not at 500m and one cm as that would have been a -14, one needs to know how to stage).

 

Target is at - 15

 

and no orther factors that I can estimate (wind, lighting ect).

 

 

 

Our shooter looks to be an average fit gentlemen.

 

so he has a good dex at 11 and that gives him a OCV of 3

 

He seems to have a familarity with the weapon so no minus there.

 

He dose not seem to be moving much so I would give him the brace maneuver for a +2 OCV and he took his time (set maneuver for a +1)

 

Total so far 6 OCV

 

now it does not look like he is firing at a off hand position but if he is this is a minus 3.

 

Long battle rifle normally +1 to ocv and +1 to range mod

 

total 5 OCV

 

If one assumes that he will hit 90% of the time he will need 12 skill levels, 14 or less to hit.

 

now class how can you buy those levels (used with most rifles at least) for the least amount of points?

 

Lord Ghee

 

 

he appears confident that he will make the shot

 

 

As noted, the rules cover the outcome in combat*, and the point about "off-hand" has already been made.

Also, I'd note that under 5th DEX 11 gives you an OCV of 4, not 3.

 

So running the numbers, I'd do it like this.

 

Average guy, Dex 8-10: OCV 3.

Weapon familiarity, no penalty

Range -12

set +1 (I would not give him brace because normally I rule you need something to brace against: the ground would do if you are prone, even your knees if sitting: but he's not doing any of that)

Long rifle +1 to ocv and +1 to range mod

Range, on a sunny day, no evidence of high winds, nobody shooting back (perfect conditions, +5)

 

That gives us 3+1+2+5-3-12 = -4, or 7 or less to hit

 

We don't now how many takes that video clip took, but if we reckon he can hit 60% of the time (that's what KS did, and he qualifies as a rifleman) then we're looking at 4 levels to bring him to 11- (62% chance) at that range. That means he's hitting 2 shots out of three, so he probably would feel pretty confidant. If he's fitter than average and DEX 11, then 4 levels would give him a 74% chance - he hits with 3 shots out of 4. He'd need 2 more levels to reach 90%, which is pretty over the top, IMO.

 

*My dad - a veteran with literally years of combat experience, who later trained cadets on marksmanship reckoned that you could divide the effective range of most soldiers by three in a combat situation - meaning that if you could shoot 6/10 on a range at 500, you could expect about 0/10 at 500 in combat and about 6/10 at 150 yards. Hero system rules actually model that pretty well, if you add the "good/very good/perfect conditions" bonuses when in training situations.

 

It's the same with skills: the roll you have is for use of the skill in a stress or extraordinary situation. You don't need to make a roll to complete an ordinary task under ordinary conditions.

 

cheers, Mark

[LordGhee]

Re: M44 offhand @ 500 yards

 

I really should not try math at 4:00am or order books on line for that matter.

 

My negitive for using a skill in combat is usally -3 so giving a +3 for perfect conditions would happen in my game (need to review this).

 

Lord Ghee