Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[megaplayboy]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I dunno, my wife had a pretty good porn collection when we got involved, and she added to it since then. And I've had girlfriends who professed little interest in porn who, strangely enough, seemed more inclined to want to have sex with me after watching some.

[薔薇語]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Hmm, I think this thread has taken a strange turn...

 

La Rose.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Several strange turns really...

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

They do that.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

And I've had girlfriends who professed little interest in porn who' date=' strangely enough, seemed more inclined to want to have sex with me after watching some.[/quote']

 

I had girlfriends do that too. And y'know it was really irritating when, after watching porn, my girlfriend would want to have sex with megaplayboy.

 

Sorry for contributing to the thread derail. We now return you to your geek sexism, already in progress.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Actually, it isn't as much a derail as it seems.

Women have been the fastest growing market for Porn since the Internet made it possible for them to consume porn without having to go buy it at skeevy dives. If you've noticed, production values have begun to change. Less (obvious) faking it, more realistic (often improvised) dialog, more facial closeups to show flashes of strong emotion, more pre and post play interviews... lots of little things all reflecting the gradual removal of the exclusive masculine focus porn used to follow.

[Cygnia]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Yeah, I'm pretty finicky when it comes to porn viewing. I keep MST3King the stuff the husband has. I've been trying to look for more feminist-friendly stuff (which is supposed to exist -- but see the aforementioned "finicky" description regarding my tastes).

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I was surprised at what the ex's liked to watch in regards to naughty stuff. It wasn't often but occasionally.

[gojira]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

/derail

 

So what should we do about all of this.

 

Make sure that we start to make noise about this. Making sure that people know that this kind of stuff isn't acceptable. Perhaps then some of you nice guys will shut down the jerks (when we don't do it ourselves). Speaking up on forums like Reddit, RPG.net etc and telling the jerks there that acting that way isn't acceptable. If there are enough people shaming the jerks they will at least stop posting their bile, and perhaps make some of them think.

 

Not only not buying models that we find offensive, but also writing letters (emails) to the companies/ studios that make such figures telling them why we aren't buying their stuff. Respectfully asking for and then buying models that are good expressions of a strong female wearing clothing that makes sense.

 

 

I have a small problem with this in that I'm not actively gaming right now. Sure, I'd do it if there were an active FLGS or company I purchase from regularly, but Hero Games is the only store I buy from right now, and I don't think they have the problems you are describing.

 

I'd consider writing an email to a miniatures company saying "I won't by your sexist minis!!" but I'd feel bad about it, consider I'm not buying their minis regardless. Ditto for brink and mortar stores; I don't actually frequent any enough to have any real "pull" there. Actually I don't buy from any brick and mortar stores at all right now.

 

RPG.net... I tend to avoid. (I do have a decently high post count there, because of an ongoing thread about Girl Genius in the "other" section.) Reddit, I don't use at all.

 

 

 

Oh right, that's what I wanted to talk about.

 

You know, one of the best counters for sexism in the mainstream, imo, is the internet. Particularly how it gives unfiltered access to creators. I've found a lot of nice, woman drawn, non-sexist comics being produced on the internet. I don't read those comic because they're non-sexist, I read them because they're well done, well drawn, fresh and insightful alternates to 90% of the drek that the mass media produces.

 

So for now I'll just promote some distinctly non-sexist products.

 

College Roomeis from Hell -- one of the first comics I started reading online. I noticed something was "up" in the perspective of the comic right away. This was one of the comics that really opened my eye to how sexist many comics are, simply because it wasn't that way. The differences are subtle, but consistent, and add up to a strong contender for feminist, gender egalitarian comic.

 

The Zombie Hunters -- again, drawn and plotted by a woman. Super amazing artwork. (Hint: someone please hire this woman.) Several strong, prominent female characters. The protagonist is in fact female. Her two friends are both "sexy" but also keep their clothes on at all times, and have strong character development and skills the have nothing to do with their gender. (None, for example, are "sultry sirens" or thief-type characters.) No female character is ever "put in a refrigerator," in spite of numerous opportunities while fighting zombies; all characters remain resourceful and in control even "in the end."

 

Fey Winds -- another character comic drawn by a young woman. This is a really excellent fantasy. And it's a "young girl's fantasy" too. The main character is a half-fox girl, who is very pretty and wears clothing about the size of a postage stamp. Nevertheless, the comic avoids any sexist tropes, and the main character always stays in charge of herself and her destiny. She can be a ditz in social situations (one reason I call this a young girl's fantasy; the main character seems to reflect some insecurities of young people) but when her friends are in danger she goes all badass and prevails to save her friends. In addition, all the males in the strip are in love with her, yet she remains in control in social situations as well. Never is there even really a hint that she might be in danger from any other character. Even in fight scenes with the villains in the strip, there's always a sense she'll pull through.

 

Girl Genius -- kind of obvious really. Written in part by Kaja Foglio, Phil's wife. Fun, very adventurous romp through fantasy 19th century Europe. Agatha is not only smart but an active inventor, and never over shadowed by other male protagonists in the strip. Great comic overall.

 

 

So I'd like to promote these as examples other people can learn from. If you're trying to plot out your next fantasy adventure, and you'd like good examples on non-sexist writing, read through these strips' archives. It'll help you out immensely.

 

OK, wrote a Russian novel here. Back to you guys.

[matrix3]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I would be amused to see a line of Nude/mostly nude male fantasy figures with their sexual characteristics as exaggerated as most of the females figures, but honestly no one would stock a series of "Amazon Harem" figures with peens bigger than their forearms, hanging down well past their knees.

 

I't'd almost be worth a small production run jut to pull a Candid Camera routine at a few game shops to record the responses by the standard "gaming public"

 

To Kickstarter!!

 

I'd contribute, if only in the name of equality.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

To Kickstarter!!

 

I'd contribute, if only in the name of equality.

 

There WAS this one that was funding a Video series about Sexism in Video Gaming.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/566429325/tropes-vs-women-in-video-games

The nastyness she encountered from comments surprised everyone.

 

This is her blog where she talks about that and more

http://www.feministfrequency.com/

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Yeah, a surprisingly large number of those went WAY over the line. I think we should neuter them, personally.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

With a rusty axe and a tree. Believe me I've been thinking about this. Think of the cultural coup we'd have if we could figure out a way to neuter the people who post to comment sections on the internet.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Not just comment sections. They've gone way, way beyond that.

 

Edit: Here's a link to an article with more of the gory details. (Found in the article linked in the OP):

 

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/internet/2012/07/what-online-harassment-looks

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Classy lady. Words for her harassers I'm not allowed to use on these boards.

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

My $.02

 

I am a gamer. I got my start in wargaming at the age of 13 in 1976, I discovered RPGs at the age of 17 in 1980. As a gamer, I know I think in game terms: "If I do this, there is a 60% chance A will happen, a 30% B will happen, a 9.9% chance C will happen, and a slim chance that Z will happen." I knew that if I learned the "rules" to life, and followed them, I would get girls to like me 'that way'.

And I did not understand why it didn't work.

 

I had to get away from gamer culture, and into US Navy culture to learn that there are no hard and fast rules to starting a relationships.

 

There is a difference to how a woman at a singles bar and one at a game table react to men. Thier behavior is different. And so, too, as a man, my behavior had to be different. The woman at the game table is not I Say Again NOT there to 'meet men'. She is there to play the game. So she deserves to be treated the same way as any other player at the table. IF (big IF) she is interested in me (unlikely), she will let me know.* IF another player is harrassing her, I will take him aside and point out that she is there to play the game, not be harrassed (picked up, flirted with, etc.)

 

This is not something I figured out instantly. It took me (literally, not exagerating) decades. Now, I get to teach it to my 13 year old son.

 

*Then I will have my heart attack, ask where she had been 30 years earlier, make a joke about how my wife wouldn't approve, etc. I'm almost 50, married, a grandfather, balding, overweight, hypertensive diabetic. When young ladies smile at me, if I'm lucky, it's because I remind them of thier father. If I'm not lucky, it's because I remind them of thier grandfather.

 

This has been poorly edited, and I hope my point comes through.

[gojira]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I had to get away from gamer culture

 

Yes. We're all geeks here, and I think to some degree we've all experienced this. I'd bet we've all had a little harder time than average being socialized to cultural norms.

 

I was going to suggest something like this, that one solution might be to get some of those geeks away from the gaming table where they can get a little experience at things besides gaming. Probably grandiose, but if it could be done I think it would actually help at least some folks.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I don't think that I've ever been under the impression that there was any humanly understandable process that leads to relationships . . . it has never been anything other than a completely opaque mystery to me. I have become used to being alone and expect to continue in that state for the foreseeable future.

[input.jack]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Anita Sarkeesian needs some mainstream media exposure for this. Shes an INCREDIBLY brave person, and has an absolute knack for explaining just how what these archaic-thinking misogynists are doing is so very, very wrong. Is there some way to get her on The Daily Show or something? Shouldnt mor epeople know about what shes been subjected to, just for the "crime" of asking that half the population be treated fairly?

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Anita Sarkeesian needs some mainstream media exposure for this. Shes an INCREDIBLY brave person' date=' and has an absolute knack for explaining just how what these archaic-thinking misogynists are doing is so very, very wrong. Is there some way to get her on The Daily Show or something? Shouldnt mor epeople know about what shes been subjected to, just for the "crime" of asking that half the population be treated [i']fairly[/i]?

 

The Hardcore Computer Gaming Community is VERY violently reactionary toward any changes in the way Computer games are put together. They are highly resentful of Casual gamers invading their games. They also dislike how Game companies are "dumbing down" their favorite games. This includes any suggestion of changing the way women are presented in the game. It's really reminiscent of how old School Internet users treated new users that came from AOL, Compuserve etc. They see outsiders coming into their "private" playground and changing things to make things better for everyone. It's all about fear of Change, nothing more. The fear, anonymity, and mob mentality lead to these nasty attacks. Once one jackal starts taking shots then the other cowards doing the same thing.

[Barwickian]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

The Hardcore Computer Gaming Community is VERY violently reactionary toward any changes in the way Computer games are put together. They are highly resentful of Casual gamers invading their games. They also dislike how Game companies are "dumbing down" their favorite games. This includes any suggestion of changing the way women are presented in the game. It's really reminiscent of how old School Internet users treated new users that came from AOL' date=' Compuserve etc. They see outsiders coming into their "private" playground and changing things to make things better for everyone. It's all about fear of Change, nothing more. The fear, anonymity, and mob mentality lead to these nasty attacks. Once one jackal starts taking shots then the other cowards doing the same thing.[/quote']

 

I think you hit the nail squarely again. But must spread rep...

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

This showed up in my Facebook feed thanks to a couple of great Herophiles. Sorry about the strong language, the filters here should deal with it.

-------

A Call to Arms for Decent Men

By Ernest Adams

July 26, 2012

Normally I write for everybody, but this month's column is a call to arms, addressed to the reasonable, decent, but much too silent majority of male gamers and developers.

 

Guys, we have a problem. We are letting way too many boys get into adulthood without actually becoming men. We're seeing more and more adult males around who are not men. They're as old as men, but they have the mentality of nine-year-old boys. They're causing a lot of trouble, both in general and for the game industry specifically. We need to deal with this.

 

Why us? Because it's our job to see to it that a boy becomes a man, and we are failing.

When we were little boys we all went through a stage when we said we hated girls. Girls had "cooties." They were silly and frilly and everything that a boy isn't supposed to be. We got into this stage at about age seven, and we left it again at maybe 10 or 11.

 

Then puberty hit and, if we were straight, we actively wanted the company of girls. We wanted to "go with" them, date them, and eventually we wanted to fall in love and live with one, maybe for the rest of our lives. That's the way heterosexual boys are supposed to mature, unless they become monks.

 

My point is, you're supposed to leave that phase of hating girls behind. Straight or gay, you're supposed to grow the hell up.

What might be temporarily tolerable in a boy when he's nine is pretty damned ugly when he's fifteen and it's downright psychopathic when he's twenty. Instead of maturing into a man's role and a man's responsibilities, a lot of boys are stuck at the phase of hating girls and women. The boys continue to treat them like diseased subhumans right through adolescence and into adulthood.

 

Men are more powerful than women: financially, politically, and physically. What distinguishes a real man from a boy is that a man takes responsibility for his actions and does not abuse this power. If you don't treat women with courtesy and respect – if you're still stuck in that "I hate girls" phase – then no matter what age you are, you are a boy and not entitled to the privileges of adulthood.

 

 

• If you want to have some private little club for males only – like keeping women out of your favorite shooter games – you're not a man, you're an insecure little boy. A grown-up man has no problem being in the company of women. He knows he's a man.
  
• If you freak out when a girl or a woman beats you in a game, you're not a man, you're a nine-year-old boy. A man doesn't need to beat a woman to know he's a man. A man is strong enough to take defeat in a fair game from anybody and move on.
  
• If your masculinity depends on some imaginary superiority over women, then you don't actually have any. Manliness comes from within, and not at the expense of others.
  
• And if you threaten or abuse women, verbally or physically, you are not a man. You're a particularly nasty specimen of boy.
  

 

When this puerile mentality is combined with the physical strength and sexual aggressiveness of an older boy or an adult male, it goes beyond bad manners. It's threatening and anti-social, and if those boys are permitted to congregate together and support each other, it becomes actively dangerous. Yes, even online.

 

Of course, I don't mean all boys are like this. Most of them get out of the cootie phase quickly and grow up just fine. But far too many don't. If we don't do something about these permanent nine-year-olds pretty soon, they're going to start having boys of their own who will be just as bad if not worse, and life will not be worth living. Life is already not worth living on Xbox Live Chat.

 

In addition to the harm they do to women – our mothers, our sisters, our daughters – these full -grown juveniles harm us, too. A boy who refuses to grow up has lousy social skills, a short attention span, and a poor attitude to work. Furthermore, all men – that's you and me, bro – get the blame for their bad behavior. And we deserve it, because we've been sitting on our butts for too long.We let them be bullies online and get away with it.

 

Some of you might think it's sexist that I'm dumping this problem on us men. It isn't; it's just pragmatic. Women can not solve this problem. A boy who hates girls and women simply isn't going to pay attention to a woman's opinion. The only people who can ensure that boys are taught, or if necessary forced, to grow up into men are other men.

 

Let's be clear about something else. This is not a political issue. This is not a subject for debate, any more than whether your son is allowed to swear at his mother or molest his sister is a subject for debate. There is no "other point of view." The real-world analogy is not to social issues but to violent crime. Muggers don't get to have a point of view.

 

So how do we change things?

 

First, we need to serve as positive examples. With the very little boys, we need to guide them gently but firmly out of the cootie phase. To the impressionable teenagers, we must demonstrate how a man behaves and how he doesn't. Be the change you want to see. Use your real name and your real picture online, to show that you are a man who stands behind his words. Of course, you can't prove your name is real, but it doesn't matter. If you consistently behave with integrity online, the message will get across.

 

Secondly, we men need to stand up for courtesy and decency online . We can't just treat this as a problem for women (or blacks, or gays, or anybody else the juvenile bullies have in their sights). Tell them and their friends that their behavior is not acceptable, that real men don't agree with them, that they are in the minority. Say these words into your headset: "I'm disappointed in you. I thought you were a man, not a whiny, insecure little boy." Don't argue or engage with them. Never answer their questions or remarks, just repeat your disgust and disapproval. Assume the absolute moral superiority to which you are entitled over a bully or a criminal.

 

Finally, we need to put a stop to this behavior. It's time for us to force the permanent nine-year -olds to grow up or get out of our games and forums. It's not enough just to mute them. We need to build the infrastructure that precludes this kind of behavior entirely – Club Penguin has already done it for children – or failing that, we have to make the bullies pay a price for their behavior. Appealing to their better nature won't work; bullies have none. We do not request, we do not debate, we demand and we punish.

I have some specific suggestions, from the least to the most extreme.

 

 

• Mockery. In 1993 50 Ku Klux Klansmen marched through Austin, Texas. Five thousand anti -Klan protestors turned up to jeer at them. Best of all, several hundred lined the parade route and mooned the Klan in waves. The media ate it up, and the Klan looked ridiculous. The hurt that they wanted to cause was met not with anger but with derision.
  
• The juvenile delinquents are just like the Klan: anonymous in their high-tech bedsheets, and threatening, but in fact, a minority. Let's use our superior numbers and metaphorically moon the boys who can't behave. They're social inadequates, immature losers. Let's tell them so, loud and clear, in front of their friends.
  
• Shut them up. The right to speak in a public forum should be limited to those who don't abuse it. James Portnow suggested this one in his Extra Credits video on harassment. Anyone who persistently abuses others gets automatically muted to all players. The only players who can hear them are those who choose to unmute them. Or another of James' suggestions: New users don't even get the right to talk. They have to earn it, and they keep it only so long as they behave themselves. This means a player can't just create a new account to start spewing filth again if they've been auto-muted. Build these features into your games.
  
• Take away their means. If you're the father of a boy who behaves like this online, make it abundantly clear to him that it is unmanly and unacceptable, then deny him the opportunity to do it further. We don't let nine-year-olds misuse tools to hurt other people. Take away his cell phone, his console and his computer. He can learn to behave like a man, or he can turn in his homework in longhand like a child.
  
• Anonymity is a privilege, not a right. Anonymity is a double-edged sword. A limited number of people need it in certain circumstances: children, crime victims, whistleblowers, people discussing their medical conditions, political dissidents in repressive regimes. But those people normally don't misuse their anonymity to abuse others; they're protecting themselves from abuse. I think the default setting in all online forums that are not intended for people at risk should require real names. After a user has demonstrated that they are a grown-up, then offer them the privilege of using a pseudonym. And take it away forever if they misuse it. I haven't used a nickname for years except in one place where all the readers know who I am anyway. Has it made me more careful about what I say? You bet. Is that a good thing? Damn right it is.
  
• Impose punishments that are genuinely painful. This suggestion is extreme, but I feel it's both viable and effective. To play subscription-based or pay-as-you-go ("free-to-play -but-not-really") games, most players need to register a credit card with the game's provider. Include a condition in the terms of service that entitles the provider to levy extra charges for bad behavior. Charge $5 for the first infraction and double it for each subsequent one. This isn't all that unusual; if you smoke in a non-smoking hotel room, you are typically subject to a whopping extra charge for being a jerk.
  

 

Now I'm going to address some objections from the very juvenile delinquents I've been talking about – if any of them have read this far.

 

 

• "What's the big deal? It's harmless banter. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the game." To start with, it's our game, not yours, and we get to decide what's acceptable behavior. You meet our standards or you get out. Apart from that, nothing that is done with intent to cause hurt is harmless. The online abuse I have seen goes way beyond banter. Threats are not harmless, they are criminal acts.
  
• "But this is part of gamer culture! It's always been like this!" No, it is not. I've been gaming for over 40 years, and it has not always been like this. Yours is a nasty little subculture that arrived with anonymous online gaming, and we're going to wipe it out.
  
• "This is just political correctness." Invoking "political correctness" is nothing but code for "I wanna be an a--hole and get away with it." I'll give you a politically-incorrect response, if you like: f-[frack] that. It's time to man up. You don't get to be an a--hole and get away with it.
  
• "You're just being a White Knight and trying to suck up to women." I don't need to suck up to women, thanks; unlike you, I don't have a problem with them, because I'm a grown man.
  
• "Women are always getting special privileges." Freedom from bullying is a right, not a privilege, and anyway, that's bulls---. Males are the dominant sex in almost every single activity on the planet. The only areas that we do not rule are dirty, underpaid jobs like nursing and teaching. Do you want to swap? I didn't think so.
  
• "It's hypocrisy. How come they get women-only clubs and we don't get men-only clubs?" Because they're set up for different reasons, that's why. Male-only spaces are about excluding women from power, and making little boys whose balls evidently haven't dropped feel special. Female-only spaces are about creating a place where they are safe from vermin.
  
• "But there's misandry too!" Oh, and that entitles you to be a running sore on the a--[rump] of the game community? Two wrongs don't make a right.. I'll worry about misandry when large numbers of male players are being hounded out of games with abuse and threats of violence. If a few women are bigoted against men, you only have to look in the mirror to find out why.
  
• "Free speech!" The oldest and worst excuse for being a jerk there is. First, you have no right to free speech in privately-owned spaces. Zero. Our house, our rules. Second, with freedom comes the responsibility not to abuse it. People who won't use their freedoms responsibly get them taken away. And if you don't clean up your act, that will be you.
  

 

OK, back to the real men for a few final words.

 

This is not about "protecting women." It's about cleaning out the sewers that our games have become. This will not be easy and it will not be fun. Standing up to these little jerks will require the same courage from us that women like Anita Sarkeesian have already shown. We will become objects of hatred, ridicule, and contempt. Our manhood will be questioned. But if we remember who we are and stand strong together, we can beat them. In any case we won't be threatened with sexual violence the way women are. We have it easier than they do.

 

It's time to stand up. If you're a writer, blogger, or forum moderator, please write your own piece spreading the message, or at least link to this one. I also encourage you to visit Gamers Against Bigotry, sign the pledge, are share it.

 

Use your heavy man's hand in the online spaces where you go – and especially the ones you control – to demand courtesy and punish abuse. Don't just mute them. Report them, block them, ban them, use every weapon you have. (They may try to report us in return. That won't work. If you always behave with integrity, it will be clear who's in the right.)

 

Let's stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the women we love, and work with, and game with, and say, "We're with you. And we're going to win."

---

[Hermit]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

This showed up in my Facebook feed thanks to a couple of great Herophiles. Sorry about the strong language' date=' the filters here should deal with it.[/quote']

 

Actually, we don't have filters on these boards and haven't for years. So to keep the profanity (which is against our rules) down we have to self police on these boards; It's the price we pay so we can talk about Nightwing's secret ID and so on. If you could go back and edit that article you quoted it would save me some work.

 

EDIT: Thanks

[Ranxerox]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Actually, it's a little known fact that most bullies are human beings and as such have better natures which can potentially be engaged. Also, while while there are extreme instances of misogyny which warrant nothing buy condemnation, a lot of misogyny is more subtle and argument, engagement and answering questions are all appropriate responses. His whole obsession with 'being a man' weirded me out a bit too. Really he is trying much too hard.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Sounds to me like you need to man up!