Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[Barwickian]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Our local gaming store probably doesn't have that problem' date=' since of the five employees, three of them are women. And they are gamers. I was talking with one of them about our respective WoW characters while she was painting some Warmachines figures. I've discussed various games and geeky stuff with the others (and the guys too).[/quote']

 

Which shop? Give them a plug.

 

Money speaks louder than words, and if the good shops get the business, maybe the ones with the misogynistic or bigoted assistants will start to investigate why.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Sidebar 1: I HATE those "get in the kitchen" jokes. They arent funny' date=' and they actually just seem to exacerbate the exact problem we are talking about. I know Pattern Ghost was speaking in jest, but its sad how many people who make those "jokes" are not.[/quote']

 

Many years ago, I worked in a print shop with a male/female makeup pretty close to 50/50. One day, one of the males made a sexist joke, and one of the women asked for my thoughts. Being a smart alec (and this was a fact well-known to all), I said, "Well, I think women belong in the House..." intending to add "... and the Senate." However, they got so up-in-arms at the first part that they wouldn't let me finish -- they shouted down several attempts I made to do so -- so I finally just walked away. They refused to talk to me for a week. (But since a good chunk of my work involved them asking me to do things, this was like a week-long at-work vacation. Boy, they sure showed me!)

[Cygnia]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Especially on certain gaming sites (which won't be named, but has a predominantly purple color scheme).

 

I'm a male, who's very much a feminist, but some of those arguments piss me off. Like a recent discussion of sexual assault, where any suggestion that a woman can take certain precautions (such as self-defense training and such) is shot down as patronizing.

 

It's considered patronizing because the onus and blame shouldn't be placed on the victim to prevent it -- it should be on the rapist to NOT RAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE .

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Let's be frank. You did not offend me in any way. With my own wife, I have used such jokes before because I know that she can take it and then dish out a reasonably joking-spiteful response. I do try to be exceedingly polite with acquaintances* though and I am not sure about Tasha's sensitivity to that sort of thing. This is not the first "sexism in geekdom" discussion that I have seen her participate in so my first guess is that she might very well be sensitive to to the topic. Hence why I would be very cautious about using that kind of humor with her.

 

Thanks for being cool about it though.

 

*With varying degrees of success.

 

Won't work around here. First, using old Southpark jokes gets me a boot to the head. Second, I'm the one who runs the kitchen.

[BoloOfEarth]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

First' date=' using old Southpark jokes gets me a boot to the head.[/quote']

 

Well, Ed Gruberman, perhaps you should learn tae kwon leep.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

It's considered patronizing because the onus and blame shouldn't be placed on the victim to prevent it -- it should be on the rapist to NOT RAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE .

Sounds like an "is/ought" problem.

 

Women ought not to have to fear sexual assault. In a good world, in a just world, in a right world, they wouldn't. There would not be predators seeking to prey on anyone they percieved as weak or vulnerable. I think most everyone can agree on that.

 

Unfortunately, we don't live in a just, good, or right world. People have to protect themselves from the predators. This is not to place blame on the victim. The aggressor is responsible for his own actions. But women have to be aware that sexual assault can happen, and they should be prepared to defend themselves if at all possible.

 

The world ought to not be that way, but the world is that way. So we dream and work towards how the world ought to be, while still living in the world as it is.

[Sociotard]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

My main issue with the article was that there were two issues:

 

1) The clerc assumed the woman was a comics rube because she was a woman (sexist)

2) The clerc did not want to deal with a comics rube (elitist)

 

The problem with the article is that the assumption was correct. She was a comics rube. I do empathise with her, but her annecdote doesn't chasten me quite the way that video-game lady did. The actress one that was discussed on a previous thread.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

It's considered patronizing because the onus and blame shouldn't be placed on the victim to prevent it -- it should be on the rapist to NOT RAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE .

 

This is entirely out of the context of whatever the discussion on that other board may have been, and in the context of cold, hard reality.

 

Everyone, including women, should be taught both how to avoid trouble, and how to defend themselves in the first place. Because the world isn't always a nice place.

 

My brother, who lives in an upscale area in NJ, has three lovely daughters. They're now 18, 17, and 13. They're all very bright girls, academically and socially adept, and my brother has made an effort from an early age to both provide for them and make sure they're safe. They've been all taken martial arts and self defense training, but haven't made a hobby of it (they're all into dance heavily). They've all been required to go everywhere with a large group of friends, and since high school this has included about half their school's football and wrestling teams. They've been trained to keep the parents informed of their destinations and locations at all times, and to have cell phones on them at all times. They don't hang out in any particularly dangerous locations.

 

About a week and a half ago, my eldest niece, despite all of this, left her group with her boyfriend and went to sit on a pier with him overlooking a river walk. Six other kids their age, four male and two female, approached them from behind and started throwing large rocks at them. The first throw hit my niece about halfway between her eye and her temple, and gave her a serious concussion. Fortunately, her and her boyfriend realized she was seriously injured and did the smart thing and withdrew to get medical attention. Fortunately, the little monsters that attacked them were satisfied with a brief stoning, and laughed as they very casually strolled off. The police in that area have 12 units available in a four square mile radius, four cars on the road at any one time. They were utterly incapable of preventing the incident, even though a unit was only a block away, and when that officer was notified, he utterly failed to properly report the incident and canvas the area for the little bastards.

 

So, while the onus may be on the bad guys not to be bad, it's entirely naive to rely on the kindness of thugs and low lives.

 

I really wish my niece hadn't had to have this lesson literally drilled into her head this way.

[matrix3]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

It's considered patronizing because the onus and blame shouldn't be placed on the victim to prevent it -- it should be on the rapist to NOT RAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE .

 

You are correct, it shouldn't happen at all, any more than murder or torture or other heinous crimes should happen. But, due to mental imbalance or whatever, violence happens and people should be prepared to defend themselves.

 

Spoilered for somewhat off topic

 

 

There shouldn't be any more blocks to reporting this crime then reporting an assault, a theft, a mugging, an attempted murder, anything. I've read and heard reports from survivors that tried to report the crime, and got a "well, you didn't fight enough" or "well, look at what you were wearing".

 

This makes no sense.

 

If someone with a fancy wallet or purse is mugged, does that excuse the mugger? "Well, you were obviously rich, so of course you were mugged. Next time, try to look a little less fancy, then you'll be fine *patpat* Now run along and stop bothering the police with your little problems."

 

We can't let this be a crime where the victim is at all blamed. However, this shouldn't mean we can't talk about self defense, or ways to avoid being a target.

 

 

 

EDIT: Ouch, I didn't see the other responses. :/ I didn't mean to be brusque with you, Cygnia, or jump on your point.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

My main issue with the article was that there were two issues:

 

1) The clerc assumed the woman was a comics rube because she was a woman (sexist)

2) The clerc did not want to deal with a comics rube (elitist)

 

Well, she does point out that the clerk did assist a male patron that was asking for recomndations just like her.

 

Of course, wether that guy was also a relative comics n00b like her is unknown, but the way I read her article I belive that she was operating under the assumption that he was.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Luckily I shop at the best comic store in the universe (http://www.thirdeyecomics.com/) and they LOVE female customers. The shop is run by a guy named Steve who looks like a biker dude complete with shaved head and tons of tattoos and his fiancée Trish, who is quite possibly the sweetest girl on the planet other than my wife. His employees are great and no one, male, female, n00b or twenty-year-collector is ever treated as anything other than a valued customer. Articles like the one posted here make me realize just how lucky I am to have this store so close to me. Not to mention the new location is in the same strip mall as the place I get my tattoos done!

[Barwickian]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Not to mention the new location is in the same strip mall as the place I get my tattoos done!

 

Sounds like a great comic shop, but this last line has me chuckling at the totally OT idea of a mash-up between your comic shop and your tattooist.

 

"Can Spidey defeat the Green Goblin? Find out on the next exciting bicep!"

[Vulcan]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

It's considered patronizing because the onus and blame shouldn't be placed on the victim to prevent it -- it should be on the rapist to NOT RAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE .

 

Totally with you there. There is no excuse for rape, period, and I think rapists should be shot (note, I'm not a judge so I can afford to be over-the-top harsh about it). However, a prudent person takes precautions. Being able to hand an attacker his head is one heck of a precaution.

[Diamond Spear]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Sounds like a great comic shop, but this last line has me chuckling at the totally OT idea of a mash-up between your comic shop and your tattooist.

 

"Can Spidey defeat the Green Goblin? Find out on the next exciting bicep!"

 

I think I'll skip that tattoo. Steve on the other hand might like the idea.

[Cygnia]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Unfortunately, while it's easy to say "well, just learn self-defense!", not everyone is in a position to take that luxury.

 

Like those assaulted by their fathers or brothers or other family members.

Or those threatened with harm to their loved ones if they don't comply.

Or the weapon is taken away from them/not able to be accessed in time.

Or have been chemically incapacitated in some way via drugs &/or alcohol.

Or your mind just freezes up, where you just CAN'T think or act clearly in time.

 

Take precautions, fine. But why is it so difficult to teach people not to rape in the first place?

[Vurbal]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

It's considered patronizing because the onus and blame shouldn't be placed on the victim to prevent it -- it should be on the rapist to NOT RAPE IN THE FIRST PLACE .

Which is a legitimate criticism if that's the context of the comment. However, suggesting women take precautions against rape does not automatically equate to blaming victims any more than suggesting people lock their front door at night to prevent burglaries. Our first priority needs to be preventing rape in the first place and part of that is women taking precautions. I do think it's unfair to suggest that precautions are purely, or even primarily, the responsibility of the individual and certainly assigning blame to the attacker is a legitimate part of that. If anything, it would be irresponsible to avoid talking about it just because some people assume you are blaming the victim regardless of the context.

 

I would also say the most essential preventative measure is instilling mental strength and a sense of their own individuality and personal worth as people in girls from a very early age. As a father of 3 girls that has always been among my highest priorities. While I cannot guarantee no one will ever make them victims, I do everything I can to ensure they will not do it to themselves. I credit my mom (and my grandfather*) for that because it's how she was raised so for me it's just the natural order of things. It's also my responsibility to make sure they know that the risk of sexual assault is, and always be a reality they must always be aware of.

 

*Just to preemptively clarify, I'm not being sexist in singling out Grandpa. My grandmother didn't share his view of their sons and daughters as equals. Even after my mother was grown, had gone to nursing school, done a tour in Vietnam as the second highest ranking nurse in an evac hospital, worked full time for decades as an ER and ICU nurse while raising 5 kids as a single parent, served as national secretary of the Vietnam Veterans of America, and been appointed by the governor to the Iowa Veterans Affair Commission Grandma assumed any facts she got from Mom needed to be verified by one of my uncles.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Take precautions' date=' fine. But why is it so difficult to teach people not to rape in the first place?[/quote']

 

Most people aren't rapists. Most people know the difference between right and wrong.

 

Others are psychopaths, and cannot be taught.

[Cancer]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I observe I'm slightly older than many (but not all) here, but I will say that I have seen ... no, I'll come clean here, experienced ... boys getting sneered at/put down by girls for getting caught doing the geek stuff mentioned here: comics, games, etc. I use the terms "boys" and "girls" in the literal sense, as the cases I have seen are well under the age of 20. I suspect that youth have got more tolerant of each others' interests in the 35+ years since I was there, but there's an old core that recalls that sort of thing from the times when one's adult persona was jelling.

 

So, part of the historical misogyny in the geek community comes from an era when the geeks, like other sorts of outcasts, found themselves pushed together by those who wanted nothing to do with them.

 

I more or less abandoned the community when I went off to grad school (and had it reinforced when my gaming stuff was lost in the fire while I was there), and recontacted it fifteen-twenty years later.

 

The linked/copied article's related experience of the woman in the comics store is, however, eerily familiar. I was treated very, very similarly when as a shaggy geek I went into a fabric store looking for felt for a gaming table. I was ignored for 20 minutes, and my experience was different only because I knew exactly what I wanted, so when I asked for help I got the desired stuff and got out without the repeated aggravation of being dissed by the help.

 

Anyway, maybe it's a fossil, maybe it's a permanent feature, of the community, and in its root cause, it has understandable origins.

[gojira]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Now I am not calling anyone out specifically. This just seemed to be a good post to quote when posting my opinion.

 

Sidebar 2: I avoided using the name of the store and the name of the guy' date=' because I dont want the Hero Forum to be open to any kind of legal action in case the guy reads this. I named Games HQ because I have only good and positive things to say about them, which I think makes it OK to name them directly).[/quote']

 

 

"Not calling anyone out" might be part of the problem.

 

First, I think the conversation about rape is rather silly and misplaced. Yes, of course everyone is going to say rape is bad.

 

That isn't what the article is about though. It's about persistent discrimination, attitudes and also the way a customer is served in a store. The article is about the right to be served in the same way that other (male) customers are being served. It strikes me as much of a civil rights issue as the original sit-in at Woolworth's in Greenboro, North Carolina. They weren't served; that was the point.

 

Yes, have a conversation with other female gamers at the store first. Make sure it's not just some personal issue. Talk to management. If you try to call someone out and these things weren't done first, you'll be blamed for not trying to resolve the problem.

 

But if talking to people doesn't help, then you've got to go public. Criticism is necessary for change to occur. Call them out on blogs, You Tube, the local TV station, other game stores, and all your friends. *Make* the owner replace the sexist employees with female gamers. This attitude isn't going to change until people figure out that it really is not OK. It must cost them money and face, or they won't change.

 

Perhaps not here, but blogs are cheap. So is You Tube, and whoever does the consumer reporting over at KRON doesn't charge for interviews.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Unfortunately, while it's easy to say "well, just learn self-defense!", not everyone is in a position to take that luxury.

 

I prefer "learn avoidance" as self defense can be sketchy for anyone. Even then, sadly, you can't always avoid trouble, so if it's possible, learning some form of defense is advisable. However, it's never the victim's fault for being victimized. Also, learning avoidance is much less of a luxury issue, as there are a lot of free, decent quality resources available in local communities and on the web.

 

A good example of learning avoidance is not looking like a victim and being aware of your surroundings. The other day when I went to pick my wife up for lunch, there was a very pretty young lady, couldn't have been much out of her teens, walking around the block of the industrial park with headphones on, head down, not making eye contact with anyone. That girl may as well have had a "VICTIM" sandwich sign on. I remember thinking someone should really go over some crime prevention basics with her. Of course, I couldn't really do so, as a large, bearded middle-aged man broaching the subject to a complete stranger of how they look like a victim would be pretty creepy in and of itself. Had there been a social opportunity to bring it up, though, I would have.

 

 

 

 

Take precautions, fine. But why is it so difficult to teach people not to rape in the first place?

 

Because it's not a matter of education. Rapists on the whole are broken people, with something very fundamentally wrong inside. You can't unbreak people so easily.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Thankfully my local comic book store's manager is pretty good about being helpful and encouraging to his female customers. Can't swear the same is true of all the crowd of guys that hang out in there regularly, though (and in fact one fellow patron I ran into last week is someone I know treats women like alien creatures from another planet), so I hope the overall atmosphere isn't too much of a He-Man Woman Haters Club. The store did have a woman who tended the counter on weekends for a while, but I don't know if she failed to work out because of poor customer response or due to an individual issue; the place goes through weekend help like Murphy Brown went through secretaries, so the latter is certainly possible.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Unfortunately, while it's easy to say "well, just learn self-defense!", not everyone is in a position to take that luxury.

 

Like those assaulted by their fathers or brothers or other family members.

Or those threatened with harm to their loved ones if they don't comply.

Or the weapon is taken away from them/not able to be accessed in time.

Or have been chemically incapacitated in some way via drugs &/or alcohol.

Or your mind just freezes up, where you just CAN'T think or act clearly in time.

 

Take precautions, fine. But why is it so difficult to teach people not to rape in the first place?

 

Because? People who rape aren't doing it because they don't know its wrong. I know someone who's father/step-grandfather raped her mom while married to her grandmother - repeatedly. But she's his first born daughter and he treated her like a princess. His wife knew it was wrong but she didn't stop it; she loved him and FORGAVE him every time. His step-daughter couldn't stop him. He certainly knew it was wrong...

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

"Not calling anyone out" might be part of the problem.

 

First, I think the conversation about rape is rather silly and misplaced. Yes, of course everyone is going to say rape is bad.

 

That isn't what the article is about though. It's about persistent discrimination, attitudes and also the way a customer is served in a store. The article is about the right to be served in the same way that other (male) customers are being served. It strikes me as much of a civil rights issue as the original sit-in at Woolworth's in Greenboro, North Carolina. They weren't served; that was the point.

 

Yes, have a conversation with other female gamers at the store first. Make sure it's not just some personal issue. Talk to management. If you try to call someone out and these things weren't done first, you'll be blamed for not trying to resolve the problem.

 

But if talking to people doesn't help, then you've got to go public. Criticism is necessary for change to occur. Call them out on blogs, You Tube, the local TV station, other game stores, and all your friends. *Make* the owner replace the sexist employees with female gamers. This attitude isn't going to change until people figure out that it really is not OK. It must cost them money and face, or they won't change.

 

Perhaps not here, but blogs are cheap. So is You Tube, and whoever does the consumer reporting over at KRON doesn't charge for interviews.

 

Well I was just quoted out of context. I DO stand up for my self when treated badly, though I am very tired that I have to. I wanted to make sure that Pattern Ghost didn't get the idea that I had any issue with him specifically. esp since I was replying to his post.

 

The reason that I reposted the article here is the hope that people will read it and perhaps that a few people might see what we are going through and perhaps change for the better.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I wanted to make sure that Pattern Ghost didn't get the idea that I had any issue with him specifically. esp since I was replying to his post.

 

No worries, since I pretty much agreed with everything you said. We don't have too many back and forth conversations on the boards, but I find you pretty agreeable all in all. =)

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Well I was just quoted out of context. I DO stand up for my self when treated badly, though I am very tired that I have to. I wanted to make sure that Pattern Ghost didn't get the idea that I had any issue with him specifically. esp since I was replying to his post.

 

The reason that I reposted the article here is the hope that people will read it and perhaps that a few people might see what we are going through and perhaps change for the better.

 

Good article, agreed, and I apologize for going off topic.