Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[massey]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Because there isn't any conflict. You're simply ignorant of a few things.

 

The first quote was in response to you incorrectly identifying breasts as sex organs. They're not. They're secondary sexual characteristics, like long facial hair on men. (Wonder why we don't see huge beards all over video games?)

 

Are breasts an object of sexual arousal for males? Yes, typically. Does this make them a sex organ? No. They feed the baby after it pops out, don't really serve any function in reproduction besides that.

 

Are breasts/nipples an erogenous zone? Yes. This is probably where you're drawing your parallel between breasts and the clitoris. However, very few women, and none I've known, can orgasm from stimulation of the breasts. They're still a secondary characteristic, even in light of their role in sexual arousal.

 

So, no, no irony here. Just a little bit of you getting carried away and thinking you're clever.

 

Then who cares if women in video games have large breasts if they aren't sexual?

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

it probably didn't help that the NElf's idle animation made her bounce her breasts.

 

Heh, probably not. At least they're more modest-sized as far as it goes. Funny thing, when I first started playing, I basically made one character of each race, and of different classes. I wanted a little variety. My first NE Warrior was a male. But the goofy proportions and the animations were off-putting, so I just rolled a female. I had not accounted for fantasy armor, though. I think the female model still looks a bit better. I just wish we'd get more face pixels for all the original models. Hopefully, they'll get them done sometime during this expansion.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Then who cares if women in video games have large breasts if they aren't sexual?

 

You should really quit playing semantics games while you're behind if you don't know the difference between "sex organ" and "sexual."

 

You may not have noticed it, but women don't like being objectified.

 

Did you miss the part about men being sexually aroused by breasts?

 

Did you miss the part where women don't like to have their breasts continually stared at?

 

Perhaps women see these depictions of women in video games and assume (rightly) that they were made that way for the sexual arousal of males? And find that offensive.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Why isn't it as important? If the why could be adequately addressed' date=' the behavior would take care of itself, and it would be a win for the guys also.[/quote']

 

I was a bit annoyed when I wrote that.

 

The why is: lack of socialization, not being taught how to be courteous. I talked about this earlier in the thread. Making sure that little boys are taught how to play with little girls. Also that both genders are mixed together during playtime early in development. That victimizing others no matter what gender is bad. To treat others how you want to be treated. That being a jerk has negative consequences.

 

Some of it's parenting, some of it's from the way we teach children in our schools. Also, when people are adults their friends can make a difference. When one of the guys is being a jerk, the other guys call him out on it.

[massey]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

You are getting caught up in Semantics. The social contract is that I don't grab your junk and you don't grab my breasts or other stuff. Also' date=' I won't stare at/talk to the zipper in your pants and you don't stare at/ talk to my breasts. It's really that simple.[/quote']

 

See Pattern Ghost? She associates the two.

 

Sorry I missed the fighting Genre of gaming. I know that I played Street Fighter back in the day, but there were other games that I liked more. Also, I never obsessed enough about those games to actually remember the names of all of the fighters. I was into scrolling shooters more (ie Zaxxon, R-Type, Hyperdrive Sidearms, etc. I also was totally addicted to Gyrus and others like that. I was also quite addicted to Centipede, Major Havoc (still am!), Asteroids and it's sequel Space Duel. I also put a ton of quarters into Computer Space and most Pinball machines that weren't table tipped to screw the player.

 

Since those days, I started playing Wolfenstein 3d on the first 486's on the market. Eventually on my Mac we got Bungie's Marathon Trilogy. Went though Doom I and II played Hexen. Then went to Diablo. All the games were pretty blocky and no women in the game that I remember seeing. Played a bit of Tomb Raider when it came out. With the Impossible avatar of Lara Croft. While her pixels were not realistically proportioned, I remember being pretty happy that she was so incredibly competent which was a nice change. Diablo II came out and more skinny supermodels were in place for the Amazon and Sorceress. I could only play Paladin as a guy (Phooey).

 

I could keep on going. My geek cred is pretty darned strong. I have lived a pretty full life and have seen and played many things you will never see in your life. We could also talk about comics, but rest assured I have been collecting those since the mid 70's and have quite a collection that reaches back to title from the mid 60's or so. I am also pretty well read in Sci Fi and thanks to Blockbuster in the late 80's and early 90's have seen just about every cheezy SciFi and Fantasy Movie that has ever appeared on screen and many that went directly to tv movie.

 

You don't know who Zangief is but you assure me you're an uber-geek. You're so well-versed in video games that you say with certainty that most games portray men in a totally realistic light. It's all those natural body-builders you grew up with, when you weren't playing Zaxxon or Diablo.

 

In the end video games are unrealistic. I don't really care that you'd like to be able to play a marginally overweight female in your online games. You present this as if it were sexist, and I think you stretch the definition of that word to such an extreme that I just don't give a damn anymore.

[Greywind]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

...or stop being friends with him until he wakes up to reality.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

See Pattern Ghost? She associates the two.

 

You don't know who Zangief is but you assure me you're an uber-geek. You're so well-versed in video games that you say with certainty that most games portray men in a totally realistic light. It's all those natural body-builders you grew up with, when you weren't playing Zaxxon or Diablo.

 

In the end video games are unrealistic. I don't really care that you'd like to be able to play a marginally overweight female in your online games. You present this as if it were sexist, and I think you stretch the definition of that word to such an extreme that I just don't give a damn anymore.

Don't remember Zengeif, but I do remember Bison who IIRC was one of the big baddies. and there were these generically named guys that were the main protagonists of the Street Fighter game. One wore a blue jacket and the other a yellow one IIRC.

 

I want to play as a woman who doesn't look like her back would break if the slightest wind buffeted her slight form. It's sexist because it's both the default portrayal of women in Video Games and RPGs and because there's never really any different kind of women portrayed. The fact is that there are more normal and normalish looking guys in video games (even Street fighter), than there are normal women in a video game.

 

What I don't really understand is why you are so invested in not adding features to the games you play. What I am agitating for is more choices not less. So you can have your women with the impossible waists, just allow me to have some models of women that are normal looking (heck they can still be slendar, but with realistic proportions). I do have to laugh that you are down to exaggerating what I am talking about and want to make your point.

 

I didn't say that Video games portrayed men perfectly. I just said that the picture you originally posted was possible for some guys to achieve.

[Greywind]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Hell, look at Schwarzenegger in his prime. Or Dolph Lundgren.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

It's sexist because it's both the default portrayal of women in Video Games and RPGs and because there's never really any different kind of women portrayed.

 

In some games it gets bad enough that even the guys start to notice it . . . it kind of broke my suspension of disbelief in Mass Effect when men came in all kinds of body styles, but literally ALL of the women in the game have a slim and sexy build, no matter what type of character they're supposed to be or how old they are. I can buy it for the Asari, who are an entire species of Ms. Fanservice Blue Skinned Space Babes, but when every. single. woman. of the human species has the same build, it is quite noticeably wrong.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Hell' date=' look at Schwarzenegger in his prime. Or Dolph Lundgren.[/quote']

 

He may have taken steroids to get to that size, but I am pretty sure that he stopped them after his movie career took off. Guys who took roids tend to deflate quickly after they stop taking them looking like former Oakland Raider Lyle Alzado. Who looked like a shrived up old man before the cancer took him.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

See Pattern Ghost? She associates the two..

 

Didn't I tell you to give up on the semantics games? Seriously, quit while you're behind.

[Greywind]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

He may have taken steroids to get to that size' date=' but I am pretty sure that he stopped them after his movie career took off. Guys who took roids tend to deflate quickly after they stop taking them looking like former Oakland Raider Lyle Alzado. Who looked like a shrived up old man before the cancer took him.[/quote']

Even now, Arnold is pretty big and beefy.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Even now' date=' Arnold is pretty big and beefy.[/quote']

 

He's never really stopped working out or keeping his fitness up.

[Greywind]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

He's never really stopped working out or keeping his fitness up.

 

He's not doing the regiment that got him Mr. Universe, either. He's lost bulk.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

He's not doing the regiment that got him Mr. Universe' date=' either. He's lost bulk.[/quote']

 

Yeah but he still looks pretty good for a man over 60. After the original Conan movies I don't think he worked out as hard. Though he was pretty bulky in Predator.

[Greywind]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I blame his time as governor.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Being a political leader has got to be extremely stressful for anyone who actually cares about what they're doing.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Arnold's genetically gifted even without roids.

 

And his antics as governator are highly amusing.

[Ranxerox]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I got the impression that we're not trying to figure out why sexism is still a problem' date=' but rather open people's eyes and minds to this fact (because a sizable percentage of males don't realize, or perhaps don't care, that it [b']is[/b] a problem) and maybe in the process figure out how we can reduce sexism as a problem.

 

 

 

Surprised, no. Disappointed, yes. And if such sexism is being exhibited by a given individual, then: Regretful, yes. Ashamed, yes.

 

I was a bit annoyed when I wrote that.

 

The why is: lack of socialization, not being taught how to be courteous. I talked about this earlier in the thread. Making sure that little boys are taught how to play with little girls. Also that both genders are mixed together during playtime early in development. That victimizing others no matter what gender is bad. To treat others how you want to be treated. That being a jerk has negative consequences.

 

Some of it's parenting, some of it's from the way we teach children in our schools. Also, when people are adults their friends can make a difference. When one of the guys is being a jerk, the other guys call him out on it.

 

Possibly, but I think massey is closer to the mark with his Mortimer Snerd character. A lot of nerds (myself included) started lives as the omega males of there school playgrounds. Unable to gain acceptance and respect with their peers commonly they attempt to secure the goodwill of their teachers by being studious. For some nerds this eventually translates into good paying jobs and a road out of their omega status.

 

Others aren't so fortunate and the only respite they get from the stress of there omega status is in their fantasy lives and the company of their fellow nerds. Girls and women tend to painful reminder of their omega status. So, they adopt a strategy of rudeness and condescension in order to push these painful reminders away.

 

Better parenting will only help if it can save them from there omega status in the first place (and it's possible that someone has to be the omega unless we change our social structures), and the other guys calling him out ignores the underlying issues.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Possibly' date=' but I think massey is closer to the mark with his Mortimer Snerd character. A lot of nerds (myself included) started lives as the omega males of there school playgrounds. Unable to gain acceptance and respect with their peers commonly they attempt to secure the goodwill of their teachers by being studious. For some nerds this eventually translates into good paying jobs and a road out of their omega status.

 

Others aren't so fortunate and the only respite they get from the stress of there omega status is in their fantasy lives and the company of their fellow nerds. Girls and women tend to painful reminder of their omega status. So, they adopt a strategy of rudeness and condescension in order to push these painful reminders away.

 

Better parenting will only help if it can save them from there omega status in the first place (and it's possible that someone has to be the omega unless we change our social structures), and the other guys calling him out ignores the underlying issues.

 

You lived it and IIRC are in a relationship. Tell me how you would change things.

 

I don't know if Omega status will ever be completly removed, but perhaps culturally we will move toward that being not as nasty a thing. I was hoping that some of the stuff I talked about with giving boys and girls more time together when they are fairly young could pay off for both Genders as they get older.

 

I have to admit, I fix computers. I am VERY good at that. Fixing social problems, I am not an expert. I can only put forward ideas and hope that someone will run with them or present their own solutions. We can't fix everything here, but perhaps we can come up with solutions that work.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I have to admit, I fix computers. I am VERY good at that. Fixing social problems, I am not an expert. I can only put forward ideas and hope that someone will run with them or present their own solutions. We can't fix everything here, but perhaps we can come up with solutions that work.

 

Meld the two! Chips in the head! Chips in the head!

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Meld the two! Chips in the head! Chips in the head!

 

I want to play with gamers, not lobotomized electro-zombies that won't venture an opinion. Though Remote controlled..... nah, can't do it to you all.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I want to play with gamers' date=' not lobotomized electro-zombies that won't venture an opinion. Though Remote controlled..... nah, can't do it to you all.[/quote']

 

Maybe just use them like shock collars. Give a little zap when the eyes roam too low. =)

[casualplayer]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I don't know if Omega status will ever be completly removed' date=' but perhaps culturally we will move toward that being not as nasty a thing. I was hoping that some of the stuff I talked about with giving boys and girls more time together when they are fairly young could pay off for both Genders as they get older.[/quote']

 

As long as we continue organizing things into lists someone will be at the top of the list and someone will be at the bottom. Nonlinear hierarchy is our only hope of breaking out of this mindset.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Early socialization is a big part of it, as well as changing the basic way we generally educate.

Humans are clannish (fractally so), social pack animals with a dominance hierarchy.

We can't alter that basic fact, but with what we know we can subvert the programs to more socially functional ends.

A lot of the core paradigms in our school systems are still firmly rooted in producing Industrial Age citizens

The ones I've looked at that are working along more modern theory, such as some of the private schools (Waldorf comes to mind) and many of the Scandinavian countries seem to be doing a much better job at producing more broadly socialized children. Promoting subcultures rather than suppressing them would be a good start. Sub-cultures form so like minded people can find each other, and new orders can form. It's a (generally) healthy expression of tribalism as surely as the fans of your local sports franchise are.

Step down hard on bullying, and generally make a point of focusing on individualism, reasoning, personal responsibility, and respect, without regard to how a person is put together or wired, and we might be on the right path.