Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[Tom]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

You can say that women should defend themselves/ don't get into bad situations. That is still putting the blame on the victim and not the attacker. It's not that easy for most women to fight back. Remember that most women are much smaller than the average male and not as strong. Yes, there are simple things that we can do to defend ourselves. It's bad enough that one has to worry about being mugged or killed in someplaces. It's worse when you have to weigh any potential alone time with a guy as a "is this guy going to try something?". Will he understand that when I say NO I mean just that. That just because I am dressed nicely for a night on the town. That doesn't mean that I want to have sex with someone.

 

That's why it's really important that Men keep in mind that "No means No!" and "Don't Rape". We need both of those to become the fabric of our society, not the crud that makes excuses for the Rapist.

 

For those who use the Murder is worse than Rape argument. I think that this video does a great job of explaining why Rape is Far worse than Murder.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/5972-Rape-vs-Murder

Warning: the Video contains a TON of Video game murder and death. The commentator drops a ton of F-bombs (in an engaging british accent which makes it feel strange).

The only people we can change are ourselves.

 

Not every Man believes 'no' really means 'yes', or that rape (or any other crime of violence) is acceptable.

 

Insisting that other people change is a species past time, and we've been at each other's throat pretty much forever (for certain values of 'forever') trying to force those changes.

 

Hasn't worked out so well, has it?

 

Many things have changed, some even for the better, and the struggle to shape norms is worthwhile. But even if successful, those changes will not happen overnight and there will still be exceptions who do not accept or follow those norms.

 

Which drops responsibility for our own safety right back on ourselves. I don't see this as blaming the victim -- it's only common sense.

 

YMMV

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

The only people we can change are ourselves.

 

Not every Man believes 'no' really means 'yes', or that rape (or any other crime of violence) is acceptable.

 

Insisting that other people change is a species past time, and we've been at each other's throat pretty much forever (for certain values of 'forever') trying to force those changes.

 

Hasn't worked out so well, has it?

 

Many things have changed, some even for the better, and the struggle to shape norms is worthwhile. But even if successful, those changes will not happen overnight and there will still be exceptions who do not accept or follow those norms.

 

Which drops responsibility for our own safety right back on ourselves. I don't see this as blaming the victim -- it's only common sense.

 

YMMV

 

To steal a slogan from an Gay/Aids advocacy group "Silence = Death"

 

Change comes to those who agitate for it. If we remain silent then the majority can't even conceive that there is an issue. I learned from my Mother that you can't remain silent to those who are treating you badly. So I speak up and make sure that others hear me. They don't always agree with everything that I say, but perhaps my saying something will make someone rethink why they are doing something.

 

I do the same thing to people that use Gay as a pejorative (ie "That's Gay!" to something they don't like). I speak up and make them think for a moment that perhaps their behavior has consequences. That there is nothing wrong with being gay and that using it as a negative is hurtful to those who are gay.

 

So Yes, Women should be careful and take precautions etc. OTOH they should feel good about dressing nice and shouldn't have to worry that some guy will try to get physical with her or be pushy with sexual advances. Women get dressed nicely for many reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to have sex with a guy. For one thing it feels great to be made up and looking good. There's a confidence that comes from just that. I imagine that guys that dress well feel much the same way.

 

Do I think that because I posted this that Geek communities will change immediately. No, and it's silly that you think that is my point. Again this is to hopefully make every guy that reads this think about how he approaches women. Hopefully if he is doing stuff that aren't the best he can use what we talked about to make a change.

 

Also, I DO realize that there ARE a lot of nice guys out there that don't treat women badly. Most guys that I meet in the hobby are great. Some are great once we get to know one another (ie they start off doing off putting things, but get better once they know me). Some are just jerks. Some guys are great 99% of the time and sometimes do things that make me wonder what is really going on in their heads.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

You can say that women should defend themselves/ don't get into bad situations. That is still putting the blame on the victim and not the attacker.

 

NO, it is NOT.

 

EMPHATICALLY NOT.

 

It is a grave disservice to paint advocates of crime prevention and avoidance training and self defense as victim blamers. In fact, it's ass-backwards. The reason for promoting awareness and self defense is to help people avoid being victims. PEOPLE. Not just women. Everybody should at least learn basic crime prevention and learn how to not look like a victim. Self defense is another matter. Many people don't have the stomach for physical conflict, and that's a personal issue.

 

However, when you say "It's not that easy for most women to fight back. Remember that most women are much smaller than the average male and not as strong," you are promoting a VICTIM MINDSET. You do not have to win to defend against rape. You should NEVER allow anyone to take you to a secondary location, because your chance of dying skyrockets; it's an almost certain death. No matter if you think you can win or not, you can delay and you can make noise, and possibly save your life. Do you know how many girls and women have died because of this mindset, because when threatened by a male, they gave in and allowed themselves to be taken to a secondary location???

 

You know what the sad part is? ALL of this is simple stuff. All of the required behaviors can be learned. They may not save you, but they can damned sure decrease your odds of becoming a victim.

 

I'm goddamned sick of people twisting the argument on preserving one's life and securing one's person to one based on gender. This is not about gender. This is about realizing that there are evil people in this world and learning to avoid them and prevent them from doing you harm.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

To steal a slogan from an Gay/Aids advocacy group "Silence = Death"

 

To steal from nobody: Rape prevention has jack-all to do with equal rights. Rapists are f-ing monsters who are not right in the head. Being vocal about rape being a bad thing is not going to do any good. Silence is an issue to be addressed. Victims need to know that they don't have to remain silent and that they don't have to feel ashamed for the acts of a craven monster. Trying to educate rapists is futile.

 

So Yes, Women should be careful and take precautions etc. OTOH they should feel good about dressing nice and shouldn't have to worry that some guy will try to get physical with her or be pushy with sexual advances. Women get dressed nicely for many reasons that have nothing to do with wanting to have sex with a guy. For one thing it feels great to be made up and looking good. There's a confidence that comes from just that. I imagine that guys that dress well feel much the same way.

 

Do you realize that what a woman is wearing has no bearing on whether or not they become a rape victim? Opportunity is the key factor, not clothing.

[Sociotard]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

For me the biggest problem is the concepts of "fault" and "blame" in the mix here.

 

If I were to go on a camp in the deep woods, I would take certain actions. I'd be careful where I stored my food. I'd try to be on the lookout for scat and tracks. I'd travel with company and bring bear spray. Why? I don't want to get mauled by a bear.

 

Now, if I don't do any of that and I do get mauled by a bear, they still shoot the bear.

 

To me, the same principle applies, at least in the foresight phase. Some men are beasts. It is wise to be aware of that, and to avoid certain situations.

 

I'll admit that in the "hindsight" phase the matter is a little different. It is okay to yell at an evil man that he is evil before you shoot him (or lock him away), while that doesn't really make sense for the bear. It is wrong to tell a woman that she should have done things differently. In the hindsight phase, blame should fall full on the attacker. Shoot the bear.

 

In the foresight phase, I see no problem with encouraging potential targets to be careful. Travel in groups, don't get too drunk, etc.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Also, I apologize for my outburst, but I feel strongly about this. Not intended as a personal attack against Tasha.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

When I was running a store I had one girl that came in with her married couple friends. When they divorced' date=' she hooked up with the guy and kept coming in...[/quote']

 

I think I might have a clue as to what led to the divorce....

 

Also, Pattern Ghost- while more strongly than I might have said it, you basically expressed my thoughts on the rejection of the argument that advocating awareness = blaming the victim.

 

Edit:

 

Also, I find the entire aspect of arguing that "rape is worse than murder" vaguely nauseating. I feel the same for "murder is worse than rape." I'd much rather leave it at "It's the single worst thing a person could do to another" (yes, for BOTH of them), rather than say "Well, that's bad, but at least you weren't X......" to a victim... or the victim's family.

[Greywind]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Different expectations. She wanted kids. He didn't. Neither would budge.

[Lucius]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Different expectations. She wanted kids. He didn't. Neither would budge.

 

I wonder how it is people get married without talking these things over beforehand.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Love me, love my palindromedary

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I wonder how it is people get married without talking these things over beforehand.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Love me, love my palindromedary

 

My wife and I had the same ideas when we got married. We had been together for 10 years beforehand as well.

And then five years into the actual marriage she changed her mind and wanted kids.

[Iuz the Evil]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I wonder how it is people get married without talking these things over beforehand.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Love me, love my palindromedary

 

Lots of them (said the therapist who does couples counseling). That, raising kids, and various fun power issues related to sex and/or money are some of the most common "big ticket items".

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Also' date=' I apologize for my outburst, but I feel strongly about this. Not intended as a personal attack against Tasha.[/quote']

 

I will point out that my last post DID say that it is a good thing for women to be aware and to protect themselves. You should also realize that No matter how much you are aware etc. There are times that stuff happens despite all of your precautions. I know that evil guys rape. I also know that sometimes young men that are otherwise good guys sometimes take advantage of drunk girls. Those girls are still just as victimized. I have to wonder if those guys could have been taught that doing that wasn't "Cool" that it was a form of rape just as bad as the adult serial rapists. I know that we all know that some people are just evil that those people can't be helped. I also know that there are people who aren't normally evil, but sometimes make bad decisions. Those are the guys that the "Do not rape" admonishment is meant to reach.

 

Rape comes up in these discussions due to how often it seems to come up in discussions with guys (ie Our team really raped theirs, or things similar to that). No matter how "innocent" that someone thinks that phrase it. The reality is that it makes most women very uncomfortable. It speaks to a deep down fear. It's one of those things that shouldn't be joked about. Heck it something that if someone in a group does joke about it they should be shouted down by their friends.

 

Being Killed sucks, but at least it's over for the victim. Victims of rape live with it for years and years and never really get over it. Oh, and I had a friend who was killed in a very ugly way when I was in high school(By a serial killer). So murder sucks too.

 

Tasha

 

PS I know that you weren't going after me as a person. You were just attacking my post and ideas.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Also Silence = Death was mostly talking about sexism. IMHO if we don't stand up for our rights and to be treated well and equally, then who will? That's why I participate in these kinds of discussions (and ones on GLBT issues/rights). Knowing that there are women and GLBT people that play the same games and have some of the same geeky interests as you is humanizing for all of us.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I also know that there are people who aren't normally evil' date=' but sometimes make bad decisions. Those are the guys that the "Do not rape" admonishment is meant to reach.[/quote']

 

It won't work.

 

Rape comes up in these discussions due to how often it seems to come up in discussions with guys (ie Our team really raped theirs, or things similar to that). No matter how "innocent" that someone thinks that phrase it.

 

I absolutely despise that crap.

 

 

PS I know that you weren't going after me as a person. You were just attacking my post and ideas.

 

Thanks. I may strongly disagree with statements you made, but I do respect you.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Also Silence = Death was mostly talking about sexism.

 

Sorry, my mistake.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/10/science/new-studies-map-the-mind-of-the-rapist.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

[Badger]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I wonder how it is people get married without talking these things over beforehand.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Love me, love my palindromedary

 

I've known a couple cases they got married anyway, in the hopes they'd change the others' minds eventually.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/10/science/new-studies-map-the-mind-of-the-rapist.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I think it makes my point about doing all of the right things and getting attacked anyways (ie Opportunistic Rape)

The new research suggests that only a small minority of rapists are sexual renegades driven by sadistic fantasies or hatred of women, and that far more common are men with a normal sexual orientation who rape impulsively as the opportunity presents itself, often while on a date.

 

 

In a 1987 survey of 3,187 college women, 15 percent said they had been raped. "Eight out of 10 said they knew the man who did it, and for 56 percent the rape occurred while on a date," said Dr. Mary Koss, a psychologist at the University of Arizona Medical School in Tucson.

 

Damn, the more I read the article the more chilling it becomes.

 

Again, I agree that women should know how to defend themselves. Everyone should know the basics, heck it should probably be taught in Phys ED in the Senior year of High School.

 

I also don't see the harm in instilling in our male children that it is not ok to force a women to have sex or to "take advantage" of an incapacitated woman. Perhaps it will help prevent more opportunistic rapes (ie Date Rapes). Yeah, it won't have much effect on those who are "evil", but who knows. It may not work, but again it definitely wont work if it isn't tried.

 

perhaps we can get back to talking about Sexism in general.

[input.jack]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Sexism sucks.

 

I think we should stop doing it.

 

(That was my lame attempt to re-rail the discussion)

[gojira]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

In the funny coincidence department, Sinfest has been on an anti-sexism tear lately.

 

 

[Manic Typist]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Being Killed sucks, but at least it's over for the victim.

 

No. That is exactly the kind of language that, even if offered in jest, is demeaning and unhelpful, just like saying "Being raped sucks, but at least you're alive afterwards and can heal from the experience."

 

Leaving aside the issues of what happens after death (and therefore whether the murder is "over" for the victim)- it's never over for the friends and family of the victim.

 

They are both horrendous, monstrous acts that should be confronted and prevented at every turn. And they should never be compared in a game of one upmanship. To do so diminishes the human dignity of all involved, including the speaker.

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

No. That is exactly the kind of language that, even if offered in jest, is demeaning and unhelpful, just like saying "Being raped sucks, but at least you're alive afterwards and can heal from the experience."

 

Leaving aside the issues of what happens after death (and therefore whether the murder is "over" for the victim)- it's never over for the friends and family of the victim.

 

They are both horrendous, monstrous acts that should be confronted and prevented at every turn. And they should never be compared in a game of one upmanship. To do so diminishes the human dignity of all involved, including the speaker.

 

Yeah, I KNOW. A serial Killer killed a friend of mine when I was in High School. It really did a number on me during my Senior year.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

The way that your post was constructed, it read (to me) as an argument that rape was worse than murder, and that you had experience with the consequences of murder to justify being able to say that.

 

Hence my emphatic post reiterating my original point, although I did note that there might have been intended... not humor... but caveating, I suppose, of the phrase.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Thanks for the link.

 

I think it makes my point about doing all of the right things and getting attacked anyways (ie Opportunistic Rape)

 

It does. It also makes the point that rapists have something fundamentally wrong with them. Even the opportunistic rapists are wired differently.

 

Damn, the more I read the article the more chilling it becomes.

 

The numbers are chilling indeed.

 

I also don't see the harm in instilling in our male children that it is not ok to force a women to have sex or to "take advantage" of an incapacitated woman. Perhaps it will help prevent more opportunistic rapes (ie Date Rapes). Yeah, it won't have much effect on those who are "evil", but who knows. It may not work, but again it definitely wont work if it isn't tried.

 

After reading the article, I think it may help in a very limited number of cases. Boys should be taught to be respectful to women anyway. Heck, more kids just need to be taught basic respect and manners nowadays.

 

Perhaps we can get back to talking about Sexism in general.

 

Yeah, the thread has drifted. I'm shocked and amazed that such thread drift could occur on these boards. =)

[Ragitsu]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Respect has to be earned (it, like pride, has had it's meaning twisted). I think "courteous" is a better fit.