Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Boys should be taught to be respectful to women anyway.

 

A sentiment that strays into sexism itself, though immediately rectified

 

 

Heck' date=' more kids just need to be taught basic respect and manners nowadays. [/quote']

 

We need to do more to ensure our children are taught to be respectful to everyone.

 

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Respect has to be earned (it' date=' like pride, has had it's meaning twisted). I think "courteous" is a better fit.[/quote']

 

This itself is dangerous. Individual respect should be earned. I think the USA has an ideal example that is being degraded - the president carried respect regardless of the individual holding that office. When someone gains an office they should gain the respect due to that office (though they may subsequently lose that respect due to their actions). A policeman, teacher, judge etc should not need to earn respect from every individual when they are acting within that office.

 

Doc

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Respect has to be earned (it' date=' like pride, has had it's meaning twisted). I think "courteous" is a better fit.[/quote']

 

Or you can treat everyone with respect until they show that they don't deserve it.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

A sentiment that strays into sexism itself, though immediately rectified

 

Doc

 

Not really. The statement was phrased that way to reflect the statement it was responding to. If anything, your statement strays into being hypersensitive which is a problem itself.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]43934[/ATTACH]

 

I wish I could be sexy just by choosing to be so.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I can

It's just only I that knows it.

[薔薇語]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

First, I want to apologize fort his post. It may come off less clear and empathetic than I want it to.

 

Also' date=' I DO realize that there ARE a lot of nice guys out there that don't treat women badly. Most guys that I meet in the hobby are great. Some are great once we get to know one another (ie they start off doing off putting things, but get better once they know me). Some are just jerks. Some guys are great 99% of the time and sometimes do things that make me wonder what is really going on in their heads.[/quote']

 

Now for an edited version:

 

Also' date=' I DO realize that there ARE a lot of nice gals out there that don't treat men badly. Most gals that I meet in my life are great. Some are great once we get to know one another (ie they start off doing off putting things, but get better once they know me). Some are just jerks. Some gals are great 99% of the time and sometimes do things that make me wonder what is really going on in their heads.[/quote']

 

Now for edited version two:

 

Also' date=' I DO realize that there ARE a lot of people out there that don't treat others badly. Most people that I meet in my life are great. Some are great once we get to know one another (ie they start off doing off putting things, but get better once they know me). Some are just jerks. Some people are great 99% of the time and sometimes do things that make me wonder what is really going on in their heads.[/quote']

 

When these kinds of subjects come up, I cannot help but feel that I am not being treated fairly just by virtue of being a guy. I do realize that isn't the intent of the majority of people who make comments like the first quoted one, or the vast majority of similar comments about male behavior by both guys and girls. But neither guys or girls exist in some monolithic grouping that lacks variation.

 

There exists people in this world who are, for the lack of a better word, jerks. This is hardly exclusive to the male gender, though. I realize that threads like this aren't aimed at saying that is the case and I realize that I am more persnickety about this than is warranted. This is though, how I feel at the end of the day.

 

There are certainly emotional insights that would be hard for me to understand because I am not a disable, mixed race, poor, woman in the middle of Iowa. But that doesn't mean that it is impossible to empathize with the issues raised by such a person. As Gary (omg, I feel sick for agreeing with him on any level) pointed out, not belonging to a group does not mean it is impossible to understand the group. No more than it would mean that said Iowa women just couldn't understand my position. But that seems to be the trend for a fair number of self describe feminists I've met. They claim that I lack insight because I'm not part of the group but then inform me about the nature of my group (male, white, middle class, educated, etc) as if the insight bus is only one way.

 

Next, I agree and disagree with issues of prevention. Comments and mindsets of "they deserved it" are unacceptable. This kind of blaming the victim is not productive and does not serve the interests of justice.

 

I also agree that people should be conscious of their surroundings and do the best they can to not be victimized. I, for one, do not walk around the seedier parts of Roppongi or Shinjuku at night. Not that I don't think I have every right to do so. Not because I wouldn't enjoy a good late night around there. But because I know that such areas are dangerous, especially for foreigners (and all women, for that matter). To view these suggestions for preventative measures as being an aspect of "blaming the victim" is wrong, in my opinion. Now, to hedge off justified concerns on your part, Tasha, I realize that isn't your stance. It would seem to be the stance of others that I have met, though.

 

But this is when I want to diverge from the pack. A lot of the advice for protection takes the form of "be careful around guys! They may try to rape you." Now, as well intended as such commentary is, I think it betrays a level of sexism that isn't acceptable either. The idea that guys are somehow like wild bears or any other kind of metaphorical shaping is one that pushes a rather sexiest view of male sex. Believe it or not, most people have self control and thought. Why is this important, though? Other than it suggesting a rather sexiest view of males (which should be important on its own right*), it teaches our young ladies a view of the world in which they should fear men. As if somehow they are lambs surrounded by un controllable wolves. I have been told rather bluntly that, because I am a guy, a female friend of mine didn't want to hang out with me alone because I might "try to rape [me]." Never mind the fact that I'd spent countless hours with her. Never mind the fact that she was friends with my female roommate who had spent even more countless hours alone with me. At the end of the day, she was taught to see men as predators waiting to pounce. It took a long time before she got over this enough to feel comfortable with me alone and since then we had a fairly positive relationship, but I was amazing and rather insulted that I could ever be considered anything other than me.

 

*And getting back to the idea that such commentary is sexist and in and of itself should be discouraged, such commentary will have an effect on the male psyche. If you tell children that they are trash from a young age, it is no wonder if they grow up to be, well, trash. Likewise, if you inform young guys from a young age that they are sexual monsters from a young age, it is no wonder that they may grow up to be so. Our society places a lot of time and energy into re-enforcing stereotypes that are neither productive for men or women. But when such topics as "Sexual conquest and male prestige" come up, most of the self ascribed feminist I meet will inform me about the negative repercussions to women. That it teaches women to be ashamed of their sexuality and pushes an objectified view of them. Both very sound points worth noting. Something that usually seems to catch them off guard is when I start talking about the male side of the equations (assuming I can. I normally get shouted down before hand). Our culture that pushes such imagery as being good for men sets up a standard of male excellence that isn't healthy for men either. The idea that I am less of a man because I have only had very minimal monogamous sexual relationships (or none in the case of others here), or that I am more of a man because I have had many uncommitted sexual relationships is unproductive.

 

This mindset establishes a paradigm of human relationships that, even if any particular guy is not comfortable with, he must achieve in order to fit the standard mold. Thus pushing men to be more aggressive in the eternal quest to be more 'manly". And of course the repeated commentary that men are little more than wolves or bears only goes to exacerbate the situation. Such commentary only serves to absolve boys and men of their obligations by reinforcing a sub human view of themselves; one in which they are empowered to act like animals because, as they have been told by men and women alike, that is what they are.

 

Now on the topic of general sexism and prejudices, we should work to treat each other as individuals. I actually do not like the "treat others [women] as you would want to be treated" commentary because that isn't the case. I have an odd and sometimes dark or prejudice sense of humor. I can not count the number of fat, thin, old, young, male, female (and even dead baby) jokes I have made in my life. My group of friends is about as diverse as one could get in little ol Missouri with an extremely large Chinese contingent, white people, black people, fat, thin, young, and Old (well, me namely since I was 3 or 4 years older than everyone else) people. None of us shied away from bad taste jokes. We did our best to keep them absurd and not realistic so as to avoid any real offense. So, why is this relevant? It is relevant because I enjoyed my small group of friends that acted in such a way. I 'wanted' to be treated like that. But not all people do. Some will take offense and thus is best to avoid doing such things.

 

So, I think the best way to phrase the above response to how we should act isn't the golden rule, but a more refined "treat people as they are." Everyone is different. Not every guy acts the same and not every girl does either. I can understand some of the troubles with being lumped together with others who share some irrelevant connection to me (white, male, etc) and thus being treated as a group rather than an individual. Likewise, I know I am just as guilty of making assumptions about others, too. It is something I try to work on but am not always successful about.

 

Anyway, I think that is about all I have to say on the topic. I know some of it is only loosely connected to the conversation at hand, but it is what has spurred forth from me while reading.

 

La Rose.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAuqkqxk9A

[Zeropoint]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Wow, I never noticed that. Now I'll be looking for it.

[input.jack]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

That was bizarre.....

[Badger]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Not really. The statement was phrased that way to reflect the statement it was responding to. If anything' date=' your statement strays into being hypersensitive which is a problem itself.[/quote']

 

Actually, my problem with women socially, does apply to me being hypersensitive. Not as bad, as I used to be. But, there was a time I would be convinced a normal "good morning/afternoon/whatever other time of day" would get me accused of sexual harassment.

 

I mean after being mock/berated by girls several times in high school for being polite* to them, I probably did get to where I was beaten down to where I cant say if they were on fire I would have been able to tell them. (well maybe too extreme, but not by much).

 

If it wasnt for a couple of friends having girlfriends who were nice to me, in the following years, that broke me out of my shell a little bit, I dont know where I would be on the matter (probably out of it, but not until late 20s, instead of early 20s).

 

I guess it is to say it is balancing act. Girls need to be treated with respect, need to stand up for yourself. But, need to know, as you can broken and beaten down, so you can do the same to someone else.

 

*After 20 years, I cant see what I did wrong, I was trying to be nice and considerate

[Badger]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I can

It's just only I that knows it.

 

I've already told you the lack of pants generally scares them off. *scares me off too, flees to scrub eyes*

[Badger]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]43934[/ATTACH]

 

I wish I could be sexy just by choosing to be so.

 

 

Well, I've never been able to put myself and sexy in the same sentence (or paragraph).

[薔薇語]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

For an interesting read that touches on the topic I talked about, I recommend a book called "The Decline of men". I had to read it in my gender and communication class in college and found it a great read. To the male posters out there, the first portion of the book may seem very down on us and harsh, but it doesn't stay that way. It is certainly a must read.

 

La Rose.

[Markdoc]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

For an interesting read that touches on the topic I talked about' date=' I recommend a book called "The Decline of men". I had to read it in my gender and communication class in college and found it a great read. To the male posters out there, the first portion of the book may seem very down on us and harsh, but it doesn't stay that way. It is certainly a must read.

 

La Rose.

 

It's also worth noting that it's a very US-specific book: the trends identified there don't seem to apply to Scandinavia, or even Europe as a whole. Edit: and I suspect even less relevant outside Europe/North America.

 

cheers, Mark

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Actually' date=' my problem with women socially, does apply to me being hypersensitive. [/quote']

 

You know, that was intended much more light-heartedly than it turned out. But thanks for sharing this. I do believe it's a problem.

 

Your parents can only teach you so much about socializing with other people, and so much of that can be torn down by a hostile school environment that it's not funny.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

It's also worth noting that it's a very US-specific book: the trends identified there don't seem to apply to Scandinavia, or even Europe as a whole. Edit: and I suspect even less relevant outside Europe/North America.

 

cheers, Mark

 

From the summary on Amazon for said book:

 

Even the male Y chromosome is said to be at risk of disappearing altogether one day.

 

I laughed, I cried, I watched Xena.

[薔薇語]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

It's also worth noting that it's a very US-specific book: the trends identified there don't seem to apply to Scandinavia, or even Europe as a whole. Edit: and I suspect even less relevant outside Europe/North America.

 

cheers, Mark

 

While not to disagree with you, I'd think it is important to point out that issues of gender roles and other such cultural constructs are going to be relevant only in the culture under question. The US is not the same as Sweden. Conflating the two culturally would be a mistake. So, when talking about social trends in the US, I would hardly expect the author's points to be applicable to anywhere but the US. Nor do I think the author intended his work to be construed to apply in such a way.

 

So, I am curious given that bit of info, what is the relevance in pointing out that a book discussing the US doesn't discuss the rest of the world.

 

La Rose.

[Markdoc]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I laughed' date=' I cried, I watched Xena.[/quote']

 

An appropriate response. The idea that the Y chromosome was set to somehow vanish has been solidly debunked and was only ever bad media pseudoscience.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

While not to disagree with you, I'd think it is important to point out that issues of gender roles and other such cultural constructs are going to be relevant only in the culture under question. The US is not the same as Sweden. Conflating the two culturally would be a mistake. So, when talking about social trends in the US, I would hardly expect the author's points to be applicable to anywhere but the US. Nor do I think the author intended his work to be construed to apply in such a way.

 

So, I am curious given that bit of info, what is the relevance in pointing out that a book discussing the US doesn't discuss the rest of the world.

 

La Rose.

 

Because the book itself - as you should know - uses a fair deal of text on the "transferability" of its findings to western culture generally - or given the frequent use of a skewed, inaccurate reading of biology, to men everywhere. People reading it should probably be aware that the cultural findings - despite the author's claims - apply to only some sections of US culture and not at all to most other places. My post was an off-the-cuff comment rather than a detailed critique, but the "biological basis" which is rolled out right up front and which is returned to later in the book, is a mixture of a few facts and a ton of bumfluff. I almost didn't get through the first chapter, because the sensationalism of much of the approach to science was completely over the top.

 

 

cheers, Mark

[薔薇語]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Because the book itself - as you should know - uses a fair deal of text on the "transferability" of its findings to western culture generally - or given the frequent use of a skewed' date=' inaccurate reading of biology, to men everywhere. People reading it should probably be aware that the cultural findings - despite the author's claims - apply to only [b']some [/b]sections of US culture and not at all to most other places. My post was an off-the-cuff comment rather than a detailed critique, but the "biological basis" which is rolled out right up front and which is returned to later in the book, is a mixture of a few facts and a ton of bumfluff. I almost didn't get through the first chapter, because the sensationalism of much of the approach to science was completely over the top.

 

 

cheers, Mark

 

Granted, it has been almost a year since I read the book, but I don't recall him trying to extrapolate to the rest of the western world. The bit about the Y chromosome is hardly the most important feature of the book since it is mostly consolidated into the first Chapter or so of the book. Add to that, I lack the Bio Background, and don't care to much about what someone who isn't a biologist says about biology.

 

La Rose.

[Markdoc]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Granted, it has been almost a year since I read the book, but I don't recall him trying to extrapolate to the rest of the western world. The bit about the Y chromosome is hardly the most important feature of the book since it is mostly consolidated into the first Chapter or so of the book. Add to that, I lack the Bio Background, and don't care to much about what someone who isn't a biologist says about biology.

 

La Rose.

 

Sigh. That's what I get for making an off-the-cuff comment. OK, in more depth:

 

Sloppiness in one area - in this case biology - is often an indicator of sloppiness overall. At the very least, it should be regarded as a warning sign. And phrases like "The truth is that men may be doomed, not because of their genes but because of their brains. Or to be more precise, the innate biology of males may be at odds with the modern world that they inhabit" are not only garbage biology (where do men's brains come from if not their genes? If this effect is "innate" then by definition it's genetic. If it's not genetic, then it can't be innate) but are, by definition, not US-specific. If these tendencies are innate, they apply to all men, everywhere.

 

Conversely, if they don't apply to all men everywhere - and as I pointed out, they don't - then they are not innate. Like I said, sloppy. And essentially meaningless. My comment about the conclusions of the book not applying generally was inspired by that sort of fluff.

 

Now if the sloppy, meaningless fluff was only restricted to biology, then maybe there'd be more meat here. Alas ... one of the over-riding themes is that this is a pan-cultural (in the US anyway, though the actual discussion is not very nuanced) phenomenon. Statements about how this decline "cuts across all ages, races and socio-economic groups" abound. The discussion is about how women are outpacing men - educationally, at work, in pay, etc.

 

So how do the real numbers stack up? Well, here they are. And they don't match the rhetoric very well. Far from a decline cutting across all racial and socio-economic groups, the ratio of high school graduation rates between genders among whites has been unchanged since they started recording data on the topic. Indeed, the only groups where high school graduation rates have changed are among pacific islanders and Asians (where boys now do better than girls, a reversal from 40 years ago and the exact opposite of what The Decline of Men is trying to say) and Hispanics, who show the opposite trend (more girls graduate high school than boys - also a reversal from 40 years ago). If you look at college graduates, a higher percentage of men graduate than women among whites and Asians, while the reverse is true among Hispanics and blacks.

 

A more detailed breakdown of the 2010 data shows that boys are slightly more likely to drop out of high school than girls, but at college, men are as likely to graduate with a bachelors degree and slightly more likely to get an advanced degree. When it comes to educational achievement, ethnicity, and regional differences prove to be far more important than gender. You can get more data on education in the US than most people will ever want here.

 

So much for "cuts across all ages, races and socio-economic groups". Like I said, sloppy.

 

So what about pay, and employment? Well, now that women are in the workforce in numbers comparable to men, it turns out the same economic forces that have ravaged mens' incomes are now ravaging womens' . So how do things stack up financially? In the end it's all about the benjamins, after all. And here's the numbers Far from "outstripping men" over the last 20 years women have gone from earning 1/2 as much as men, to 2/3rds as much. Yay. Sarcasm aside, I guess that's still progress. You can see why that is: women (regardless of race) dominate the very lowest rungs of the income ladder and men (especially white men) dominate the upper rungs. The breakdown by age suggests that this disparity is age-linked, so things might improve in the future.

 

If you look at the actual numbers, suddenly men don't seem to be in decline at all.

 

But I don't think the book is entirely worthless, because even if it's sloppily researched and most of its claims are dubious, if not spurious, it does reflect the current zeitgeist. The data might say that men - especially white men - are doing pretty damn well. And as a whole, they are. But if you dig deeper into the figures, the terms "as a whole" hides the fact that some men are doing very well, and others not so well at all. Charles Murray, of all people, makes this case (in fact, I became aware the book we are discussing now as part of the huge debate over Murray's book Coming Apart) though he probably didn't mean to. In the US, the working class and lower-middle class male is doing poorly - regardless of ethnicity. So is the working class female, if you look at the numbers, but the difference between those two has been squeezed, so that it's smaller than it used to be. To a guy under pressure economically, the fact that "some people, somewhere" are making out like bandits, may add to his general sense of grievance, but it's also pretty abstract. But when people he can directly compare his situation with - say, the lady next door - are doing better than they used to, even if it's still not as good as him ... well, I can see how that might look threatening. And that group - working class and lower middle class - makes up a substantial chunk of the population. You can see their unease and growing fear in today's politics.

 

So The Decline of Men might be sloppily-researched polemic, but it's an interesting look into the kinds of things that are worrying a lot of men.

 

cheers, Mark

[Enforcer84]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Only half on topic:

 

Locally, the governor eliminated an elected educational position, filled currently by a woman making $82k a year and turned it into an assigned (by the Governor) position given to a man for $192k a year.

 

I don't know all the details, but I'm waiting for the lawsuit.

 

 

As far as the gaming goes, I've stopped going to FLGS as there are precious few left. Stopped reading comics and do most of my shopping online.

So my memories on the subject are more than 4 years old. I could see all the problems that the Original Article presented to some degree.

 

Even moreso at the Hobby Shop I worked at in the 1990's. But it wasn't a gaming shop - had games, I was in charge of them - but they used to sneer at the women who came in to buy RC cars, planes, and trains...

[Tasha]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

Actually, my problem with women socially, does apply to me being hypersensitive. Not as bad, as I used to be. But, there was a time I would be convinced a normal "good morning/afternoon/whatever other time of day" would get me accused of sexual harassment.

 

I mean after being mock/berated by girls several times in high school for being polite* to them, I probably did get to where I was beaten down to where I cant say if they were on fire I would have been able to tell them. (well maybe too extreme, but not by much).

 

If it wasnt for a couple of friends having girlfriends who were nice to me, in the following years, that broke me out of my shell a little bit, I dont know where I would be on the matter (probably out of it, but not until late 20s, instead of early 20s).

 

I guess it is to say it is balancing act. Girls need to be treated with respect, need to stand up for yourself. But, need to know, as you can broken and beaten down, so you can do the same to someone else.

 

*After 20 years, I cant see what I did wrong, I was trying to be nice and considerate

 

It was high school and you were probably different enough from the herd. They probably went all "mean girl" on you. Some people in High School are cruel jerks. I wouldn't dwell on it. Just tell yourself that they were just another group of antagonists in the prison yard mentality that seems to grip some kids in HS.

[Sociotard]

Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities

 

I'd already put this on the political cartoons thread, but it seems to apply here.