Pattern Ghost Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities There is no such thing as "reverse sexism": sexism is sexism. But there's such a thing as being overly defensive when sexism is brought up. The fact is, it does indeed go both ways. And there are other kinds of discrimination that enter the mix and muddy things up (geek vs non-geek, in this case). But in the context of women participating in male-dominated activities, including gaming and geek culture (wtf ever that actually means), there is a clear problem with sexism. Bringing it up doesn't equate to painting all men as sexists, though. While I found that video you posted interesting, I think a lot of your responses to the thread have been defensive in nature. While it's fair to point out that sexism goes both ways, I don't think in this environment you need to be worried about a "war on men" type of mentality. Heck, just look at what Tasha has put up with out of me so far. =) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Were you ever part of that nostalgic age where no one locked their doors' date=' because "the neighborhood was just that safe"?[/quote'] That age never existed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities This is where I admit that I like chain-mail bikinis; but I don't demand them. ...I do look damn sexy in them though. I like looking at pretty women too. I am not against sexy miniatures in general, I am just sick of them being the default way to depict women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Guys are often oblivious. I think we need to get the stupid notion that fighting for the the affections of the person you "love" will actually yield results out of their head. Then again, some guys are just cavemen. I think there's a line that needs to be crossed before we're into sexual harassment territory when it comes to wooing a young woman. If the boy is well-mannered and not obnoxious or sexually provocative, and just doesn't understand when it's time to give up, I think a little leeway can be given due to immaturity or lack of understanding. If the overtures involve touching, or stalking, or acting out in any way, then we're more into sexual harassment territory. Yeah point made. I make allowances for youngsters to a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities But there's such a thing as being overly defensive when sexism is brought up. The fact is, it does indeed go both ways. And there are other kinds of discrimination that enter the mix and muddy things up (geek vs non-geek, in this case). But in the context of women participating in male-dominated activities, including gaming and geek culture (wtf ever that actually means), there is a clear problem with sexism. Bringing it up doesn't equate to painting all men as sexists, though. While I found that video you posted interesting, I think a lot of your responses to the thread have been defensive in nature. While it's fair to point out that sexism goes both ways, I don't think in this environment you need to be worried about a "war on men" type of mentality. Heck, just look at what Tasha has put up with out of me so far. =) Agreed. My male parts are sensitive and don't like it when some women bust out the "guys" or "men" phrases (without the qualifying "some"). It hurts them. But then again my male parts never had to fight for the right to vote, own property, earn the same as other parts on average, not be treated like objects for the lustful gratification of women everywhere (though the last one they would be interested in) or not be property. So when I hear, "Men are pigs." I cringe and get over it, reminding myself that I'm reasonably unpiggish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Were you ever part of that nostalgic age where no one locked their doors' date=' because "the neighborhood was just that safe"?[/quote'] there were parts of the country that were actually that safe. Heck if you believe Michael Moore there are parts of Canada that are still that safe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities I like looking at pretty women too. I am not against sexy miniatures in general' date=' I am just sick of them being the default way to depict women.[/quote'] you mean the games you play don't have heavily armed strippers running amok? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragitsu Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities But there's such a thing as being overly defensive when sexism is brought up. Well, when anything like "socially awkward" gets mentioned in regards to geeks, I kind of picture shyness...perhaps a bit of hesitation tossed into the mix (lack of knowing how to approach a potential date, basically). To see that being regarded as lacking basic hearing ability and/or having a domineering ego, is a bit jarring. So, I commented on it. The fact is' date=' it does indeed go both ways. And there are other kinds of discrimination that enter the mix and muddy things up (geek vs non-geek, in this case). But in the context of women participating in male-dominated activities, including gaming and geek culture (wtf ever that actually means), there is a clear problem with sexism. Bringing it up doesn't equate to painting all men as sexists, though. [/quote'] Of course, but in any situation where emotions run high due to the nature of a discussion, the chance of a generalization coming up increases. There's also poor phrasing, too, but it's usually less of an issue. While I found that video you posted interesting' date=' I think a lot of your responses to the thread have been defensive in nature.[/quote'] Defensive, mostly because of the broad brush I saw being used. While it's fair to point out that sexism goes both ways' date=' I don't think in this environment you need to be worried about a "war on men" type of mentality. Heck, just look at what Tasha has put up with out of me so far. =)[/quote'] A lot better atmosphere than RPG.net on the subject, anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmadanNaBriona Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Ok Out in the lands of Warhammer 40k there has also been a discussion of sexism in the wargaming circles (which is frankly far worse than it is in RPG circles). Also, the discussion has moved toward the subject of "Sexy Models" ie miniatures that depict people but mostly women in a sexualized fashion. Thanks to the popularity of http://www.Coolminiornot.com there has been an explosion of companies that offer nearly pornographic nude models. There has always been a trickle of intensely sexualized female models from nearly all companies that make miniatures. Lately there has been an explosion of these kind of figurines. I see this discussion as being akin to discussions here about the Depictions of Women in RPG artwork. it started with this review of models (Warning Nekked and partially nekked painted and unpainted figuring might not be safe for work). The comments are where it all began: http://www.houseofpaincakes.com/2012/06/sexy-models-need-i-say-more.html#idc-container Then a ton of blogs commented on their own sites. http://warpsignal.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/the-other-sexy-models/ http://www.tentakelgames.com/post/25494912136/sexism-and-miniatures kind of wraps up here with a ton of links to other blogs that talk about the miniatures and the way women are treated at gaming places. http://warpsignal.wordpress.com/2012/07/13/sexism-in-gaming-art-final-words/ Enjoy Thanks for the linkage, interesting reading I admit I LOLed at the Betty White quote someone posted in a response (spoilered for language) Why do people say "grow some balls"? Balls are weak and sensitive. If you wanna be tough, grow a vagina. Those things can take a pounding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCoy Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Also since it seems that it won't work to teach our young to not hurt women "ie to not rape them" and the only avenue open to me is to "take care of myself". I DO have to assume that all guys are untrustworthy. That I cannot ever let my guard down. I must be ready to physically defend myself whenever I am alone with a guy. Or at least that's my big take away from the discussions here. There are good guys out there. There are also violent scumbags. Look at the domestic violence statistics. Far, far too many women (and for that matter Gay men) seem unable to tell the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Violent scumbags drag down humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt the Bruins Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Were you ever part of that nostalgic age where no one locked their doors, because "the neighborhood was just that safe"? I was growing up; we didn't lock our doors until dark despite the socially maladjusted neighbor kid who was prone to just walking into the house without knocking (basically Urkel without the laugh track). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Well' date=' when anything like "socially awkward" gets mentioned in regards to [b']geeks[/b], I kind of picture shyness...perhaps a bit of hesitation tossed into the mix (lack of knowing how to approach a potential date, basically). To see that being regarded as lacking basic hearing ability and/or having a domineering ego, is a bit jarring. So, I commented on it. I think the rape side discussion muddied the waters here. I read those comments as more aimed toward the general population vs. geek-specific. Of course, but in any situation where emotions run high due to the nature of a discussion, the chance of a generalization coming up increases. There's also poor phrasing, too, but it's usually less of an issue. I think both of these are at play, and have caused some communication problems in the thread. Defensive, mostly because of the broad brush I saw being used. I didn't see it, more what I said in my first comment about the commingling of topics. But I'm not going to sit here and tell you what you saw. Fair enough point. A lot better atmosphere than RPG.net on the subject, anyhow. That's why this is my online community of choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted July 16, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities There are good guys out there. There are also violent scumbags. Look at the domestic violence statistics. Far' date=' far too many women (and for that matter Gay men) seem unable to tell the difference.[/quote'] I actually DO know that. I was actually overstating things to make a point. Though I will admit that guys that I don't know very well I do get those twinges of (Can I really trust them). Domestic violence is something totally different with very complicated victim psychology that is beyond the scope of this post/ thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities I actually DO know that. I was actually overstating things to make a point. Though I will admit that guys that I don't know very well I do get those twinges of (Can I really trust them). Domestic violence is something totally different with very complicated victim psychology that is beyond the scope of this post/ thread To be fair, I get twinges with people I don't know well. I'm overly cautious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities For some reason, a memory popped into my head. Many years ago, I was participating in an Air Force briefing/orientation on this sort of topic. I was paired off with a young airman and one of the scenarios we were given to discuss involved complimentary but inappropriate comments made by a male airman about a female airman's appearance. The young man wasn't seeing the problem. I asked "Would you say something like that to a woman who was your commanding officer?" He said no, and I asked why not. He said "It wouldn't be respectful." So I asked "If it's not respectful to say to your commanding officer, what makes you think it's respectful to say it to someone you outrank?" Seeing the understanding in his eyes was like watching a light go on. He got it - respect is for everyone. Lucius Alexander regularly disrespected by my palindromedary bigbywolfe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities In a rather nicely timed coincidence... The First Female engineer at Google is now the CEO at Yahoo. ....and the pic they have of her for the article is in a tight red dress. http://www.tomsguide.com/us/Yahoo-CEO-Google-Marissa-Mayer-President,news-15900.html According to her bio, Mayer worked at the UBS research lab in Zurich, Switzerland and at SRI International in Menlo Park, California, prior to joining Google. She graduated with honors from Stanford University with a B.S. in Symbolic Systems and a M.S. in Computer Science. For both degrees, she specialized in artificial intelligence.While at Stanford, she taught computer programming to more than 3000 students and received the Centennial Teaching and Forsythe Awards for her contributions to undergraduate education. In 2008, the Illinois Institute of Technology awarded her an honorary doctorate of engineering. She has been honored with the Matrix Award by the New York Women in Communications, as a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum, and as "Woman of the Year" by Glamour magazine. For four years running, Fortune has named her one of the 50 Most Powerful Women in Business, including when at age 33 she was the youngest woman ever included on the list. After joining Google, she led efforts for many of Google's most recognizable products, including the development of its flagship search product and iconic homepage. Umm... wow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Querysphinx Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities I agree with "No means no!" Unfortunately, in the broader context of society, persistence frequently wins. As long as the hitter has any chance whatsoever of gaining compliance, the hitting-on will persist. The hit-upon party said "no" 22 times, but might say "yes" on the 23rd time. It's the same mentality that keeps people playing the lotto. For my own part, whenever I enter a room with a lone woman, even one who I've known for a long time, I try not to block the rout to the door. I wonder if any notice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities I'm kind of indifferent. You do have a point about the pic chosen, but it's also a pic she posed for. It was also taken by a woman. The attribution for the pic on Glamour.com. Photographed by Brigitte Lacombe in Mayer’s Google office in Mountain View, California Note the article is her Woman of the Year article. I guess if the pic was taken with her consent by a woman, for an article praising her for being a good example of a woman, I'm not going to complain. From the article in Glamour: With a wardrobe that’s strong on Oscar de la Renta and Armani, Mayer cuts a striking figure on the company campus. “When people think about computer science, they imagine people with pocket protectors and thick glasses who code all night,” Mayer jokes. “I do code all night! I am the stereotype, but I also break the stereotype.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xavier Onassiss Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities there were parts of the country that were actually that safe. Heck if you believe Michael Moore there are parts of Canada that are still that safe. Parts of America still are still that safe, actually. In the rural area where I live, locked doors are an aberration. Most folks around here don't encrypt their wi-fi, either. I've stayed out of this thread up to this point because a parallel "discussion" (actually an apocalyptic flame-war) in the atheist/skeptic community on the same topic burned me out already. The whole thing reached an extremely extreme level of extremism on all sides and I was firmly in the "pox on all your houses" camp until I read this column. Finally, someone in the a/s community said something reasonable on the subject, and it's good enough that I'd like to pass it along here. I have little more to add, other than to say I'm really glad this forum hasn't devolved into the level of extremism I've seen elsewhere. I will now STFU, take my white male privilege and go sit quietly in the corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Posted July 16, 2012 Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Well' date=' when anything like "socially awkward" gets mentioned in regards to [b']geeks[/b], I kind of picture shyness...perhaps a bit of hesitation tossed into the mix (lack of knowing how to approach a potential date, basically). To see that being regarded as lacking basic hearing ability and/or having a domineering ego, is a bit jarring. So, I commented on it. I think the problem here is that even the label "geek" is a pretty broad brush. I tend to equate "geek" with shyness most of the time, but I've also encountered my fair share of incredibly arrogant, insensitive, smarter-than-thou "geeks" as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities I'm kind of indifferent. You do have a point about the pic chosen, but it's also a pic she posed for. It was also taken by a woman. The attribution for the pic on Glamour.com. Note the article is her Woman of the Year article. I guess if the pic was taken with her consent by a woman, for an article praising her for being a good example of a woman, I'm not going to complain. From the article in Glamour: I didn't say women were any better at portraying women. I just noticed when I did a google image search of "CEO" it was a vast sea of headshots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities I didn't say women were any better at portraying women. I just noticed when I did a google image search of "CEO" it was a vast sea of headshots. Well, I did say you had a point. ... but I didn't mention it was the one on top of your head... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities No one ever said or implied that. "No means no" also applies to asking women out or "hitting" on them. Some guys just cannot get it in their heads that when someone says that they are not interested that they really mean just that. Also since it seems that it won't work to teach our young to not hurt women "ie to not rape them" and the only avenue open to me is to "take care of myself". I DO have to assume that all guys are untrustworthy. That I cannot ever let my guard down. I must be ready to physically defend myself whenever I am alone with a guy. Or at least that's my big take away from the discussions here. See, I can misinterpret the discussion and twist it around too. What makes you think you're twisting anything around? I do not trust people I do not know as a matter of course. Man or woman has nothing to do with it. We all have Internet connections here -- which means we've all gotten the emails promising us money, or asking us to follow links to this that or something else. Guess what. This happens in the real world too. Happens all the time, and has been happening for a long time. Hansel and Gretal is just a literary way of saying "come here little girl (boy), I've got some candy..." Not everyone is a crap-sack. The world is full of decent people you can safely be alone with. But the world also has some people that you will never be able to trust, that you will never be able to change. The scary part is you probably be able to tell who is which until you ARE alone with them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted July 17, 2012 Report Share Posted July 17, 2012 Re: Interesting article about Sexism in Geek Communities Well, I did say you had a point. ... but I didn't mention it was the one on top of your head... Not this time! I filed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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