[New Product] Champions Complete

[Beast]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

maybe a free pdf of Wild Strike

give it a few scenarios like a bank heist,stop that launch,rescue the hostages,etc

mostly pre built characters with room to customize(your 8d6 blast can either go as 12d6,10d6 1/2 end,10d6 AP,8d6 Pen,etc...

about 30 pts of skills

 

 

In my (obviously biased) opinion, Champions Complete does that, though of course the proof will be in the pudding, as they say. Of course, if there's still a perceived need for a "gateway" book other than Champions Complete, I'm sure Hero Games will consider how to best address that.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I hope we are keeping compatibility with the large quantities of Champions 6e material that has already been released and will ideally still be available in PDF. I also hope that the bulk of the Hero releases that support 6e will still be available in PDF. Like it or not, eBooks have revolutionized the way RPG books are sold, with many unintended and some would say baleful consequences.

 

That said I do plan, for now, to buy the new book.

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

My past writing for Hero Games includes Vibora Bay and Champions Battlegrounds' date=' and I was one of the folks who provided input for 5ER and 6E as part of the "5ER Five" and "SETAC," respectively. I've been a Champions/HERO System player and an active participant in the Hero community for about 25 years. [/quote']

 

Well the last part I knew about (not the number of years though) but I never realised you wrote Part of VB and CB (both on my shelf). I guess I should go take a look and read them again!

 

I don't think this has been written in stone yet.

 

I actually consider it is a pretty good sheet but the long list of characteristics (top left) just make it look complicated. Having only 6 characteristics and all the others in their functional blocks make the sheet look less complex and more organised. I'd say that if the presentation of the book change a bit to make it more condense/concise/easy to reference/organised, a look should be taken at the character sheet as well. How many people crack open a book straight to the character sheet to get a first feeling of the game?

 

Vanilla HERO. As Jason has noted elsewhere, one of the intentions is for Champions Complete to be able to take the place of 6E1, 6E2, Champions, and Basic in the Hero Games product line, so it essentially serves as the core rulebook, in addition to a superhero genre book.

 

This reinforce my preference to have a coloured interior. Sure the cost might be higher to produce but I thought part of the deal with Cryptic was to have access to there library of concept art? Not sure if the library is substantial or if the drawings are of quality. It’s probably too late at this point anyway. I wonder if a Kickstarter specifically to cover the extra cost for a colour version would have been possible (KS succeed= full colour version; KS fail=B&W interior).

 

Oh well, only speculation anyway.

 

No. The Heroic-level rules are still included. Everything is treated with less extensive detail than it was in 6E1 and 6E2 (that was probably the primary design goal), and the Heroic rules are perhaps condensed even more than the Superheroic rules are. But they're in there. (After all, not all comic book stories are about superheroes... )

 

Cool. Any change to the Hit Location Chart or the STUN multiplier rolls (RE “Killing attack in 6E” thread)?  (Half-kidding here)

 

No. Every game has its jargon. (Pathfinder certainly has plenty, and that doesn't seem to stop anyone from playing that... ) Of course, they are all explained.

True. Personally, the only ones I cannot stand are OMCV and DMCV. Four letters acronym are a bit much (I would have preferred OMV and DMV). Like I said, anything else I consider totally acceptable jargon and I hope non-HEROphiles would agree.

 

Will the Champions be featured in the book or all the characters will be originals??

 

Is “Champions Complete” really evocative enough as a title? Unfortunately, what would have been a perfect title for the book “Champions : The Super Roleplaying Game” was already given to the genre book. I ask because the title doesn’t strike me with a “wow! I want to play this game!” feeling. Not that I have anything better to offer though.

 

Champions Core or Champions Core Roleplaying Game or Champions Complete Roleplaying Game? Might sound better than just Complete.

Champions Homestead or Champions HQ? You know, a new home for Champions.

Champions and Villains? Champions and Sidekicks? Too much like M&M?

Champions Classic or Champions the Classic Roleplaying Game? Would probably confuse people with previous editions.

Champions Deluxe? I am not a fan of the “deluxe” appellation personally. Espacially for a B&W book.

The New Champions ? People might expect a team with different members in it.

Champions of Millenium City ? Might be confused with Champions the New Millenium.

 

Well, I might not have anything spectacular but I am pretty sure that something better than “Complete” can be found.

 

Oh and one last thing, no matter the title, the interior or what not, thank you for doing this book.

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Similar in concept' date=' but different in execution. The Superhero Gallery is a useful quick character-generator, but its sheer length precludes putting it in [i']Champions Complete.[/i] The new book approaches it by discussing "sets" of abilities commonly taken together for various Special Effects, backgrounds, or concepts. The character archetypes then refer to these "sets" when talking about typical characters of that archetype. So it's less of a literal plug-and-play character builder, and more of a freeform guideline to help players associate game mechanics with character concepts.

 

For example, one of the sub-types of the Brick character archetype is:

 

AQUATIC

 

[Heavy Snip]

So it's not a full-blown character template exactly, but if you took all the abilities it mentions, you'd be well on your way to building a character who feels like a classic Aquatic Brick.

This looks very promising. Making character creation easier to newcomers can only be good.

[megaplayboy]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Folks, I suspect the goal here was to produce a product adequate for most customers' needs. Not something that would meet all our wishes and expectations. It's affordable, concise and relatively complete. It doesn't have color pages, doesn't have all the bells and whistles we're accustomed to, but it gets the job done. At this point, we should be thankful for that, imo.

[Sketchpad]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I wonder if collections of templates could be done as Hero Plus PDFs? I know that M&M sells template splatbooks for archetypes. You could call it something like "Ultimate Archetype" maybe' date=' boiling down character creation for beginning players and harried GMs. Heck, it would work for Fantasy Hero too.[/quote']

 

Another possibility is to do the same thing with powers, also akin to what M&M has been doing. I think small, affordable PDFs for powers and archetypes would be pretty cool

[bigbywolfe]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Well all of the Powers will be in the book (it is the complete rules after all), and we already have Champions Powers for prebuilt superpowers.

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Megaplaboy, I hear what you say and I agree with it BUT having a bunch of excited guys jumping around and asking questions and throwing wishful thinking is not a bad thing in my opinion. I haven't seen a single negative post so far only inquisitive or "daddy can I have that too!" kind of posts (yep, refering to my posts there).

 

Here is another one that I just thought. Assuming there will be a Vehicle list in the book would it be possible to correct the weights of some vehicle? I don't have it around but I remember that they were only based on size of the vehicle instead of being adjusted to realistic weights (so tanks were way too lights).

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I hope we are keeping compatibility with the large quantities of Champions 6e material that has already been released and will ideally still be available in PDF. I also hope that the bulk of the Hero releases that support 6e will still be available in PDF. Like it or not' date=' eBooks have revolutionized the way RPG books are sold, with many unintended and some would say baleful consequences.[/quote']

 

It's completely compatible with everything already released for 6E. Though I can't speak for the company, I'd be flabbergasted if they ever released a book that didn't also have a PDF version available. Likewise for third-party publishers unless one has some huge personal vendetta against PDFs or something.

[Tasha]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I just have to laugh at the community sometimes. We all gripe and moan for years about the lack of color in Hero System books and say how it's hurting sales of the books. When Steve finally caves in and gives us a rulesbook that is chock full of full color artwork and full color layouts, we complain about how long the books are and how much they cost.

 

So now we complain about the length of the books and the cost. So Derek works hard to get 6e1, 6e2 and Champions Genre edited down to 240pgs (less than the beloved BBB) and gets the cost down to $40. Which makes Champions one of the best Crunchy RPG value on the market bar none. So what do we do? We complain about possible missing stuff and lack of color art.

 

We can't have it both ways. If we want color artwork and hard cover books, we need to be willing to spend $60 or so for a book. Hero is a small company they don't have the sales to make the Core books a Loss Leader like WoTC or Paizo can.

 

So lets get positive and start thanking Derek for all of his hard work. An inexpensive book is just the thing we need right now to get people to try the system.

 

So thanks Derek!! I for one can't wait to get the new book and I hope this leads to more Rules+Genre book goodness in the future.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

How many people crack open a book straight to the character sheet to get a first feeling of the game?

 

I'm probably the wrong person to ask on that one. Because I personally lobbied against there being a character sheet in the book at all. Instead, I said it should be a freebie download. Really, who photocopies blank record sheets out of books anymore? Ya' print 'em out from PDFs or from Hero Designer.

 

This reinforce my preference to have a coloured interior. Sure the cost might be higher to produce but I thought part of the deal with Cryptic was to have access to there library of concept art? Not sure if the library is substantial or if the drawings are of quality. It’s probably too late at this point anyway. I wonder if a Kickstarter specifically to cover the extra cost for a colour version would have been possible (KS succeed= full colour version; KS fail=B&W interior).

 

Since folks keep mentioning color, I'll talk about it a bit. Though it wasn't my decision to make, I don't disagree with it at all. Yes, color's pretty. But there are some points on the other side too:

 

1. Color isn't important enough to everyone for them to be willing to pay a higher price.

2. Some gamers actually prefer black-and-white, because they feel it makes the book more durable for its cost.

3. (This is the big one) Color doesn't just cost more to print once... it also costs more to reprint every time. Which means doing smaller reprint runs is impractical, and requires a big chunk o' cash to do a reprint. Which leads to your core book being unavailable in print for long stretches of time. That's a Bad Thing.

 

Although I'm not privvy to the sales numbers (I'm speaking strictly as a fan, now), remember that 6E1 and 6E2, Champions, Champions Universe, Champions Villains 1 & 2, Fantasy Hero, and Star Hero were all done as color books. And the folks who do know the sales and cost details on those books are the same folks deciding to do Champions Complete with black-and-white interior.

 

I think that should tell us something.

 

 

Any change to the Hit Location Chart or the STUN multiplier rolls (RE “Killing attack in 6E” thread)?  (Half-kidding here)

 

Nope. Gotta leave something for newcomers to connect with old-timers about, right?

 

 

Will the Champions be featured in the book or all the characters will be originals??

 

The Champions. There will also (assuming everything fits) be five example villains from the Champions Universe. And altogether, the ten example characters will match the ten character archetypes (Blaster, Brick, Gadgeteer, Martial Artist, Mentalist, Metamorph, Mystic, Powered Armor, Speedster, and Weaponmaster).

 

Is “Champions Complete” really evocative enough as a title? Unfortunately, what would have been a perfect title for the book “Champions : The Super Roleplaying Game” was already given to the genre book. I ask because the title doesn’t strike me with a “wow! I want to play this game!” feeling. Not that I have anything better to offer though.

 

Champions Core or Champions Core Roleplaying Game or Champions Complete Roleplaying Game? Might sound better than just Complete.

Champions Homestead or Champions HQ? You know, a new home for Champions.

Champions and Villains? Champions and Sidekicks? Too much like M&M?

Champions Classic or Champions the Classic Roleplaying Game? Would probably confuse people with previous editions.

Champions Deluxe? I am not a fan of the “deluxe” appellation personally. Espacially for a B&W book.

The New Champions ? People might expect a team with different members in it.

Champions of Millenium City ? Might be confused with Champions the New Millenium.

 

Well, I might not have anything spectacular but I am pretty sure that something better than “Complete” can be found.

 

Many of those were considered, and often dismissed (sometimes for the grounds you note). Obviously, we thought Champions Complete was the best choice overall.

 

Oh and one last thing' date=' no matter the title, the interior or what not, thank you for doing this book.[/quote']

 

You're very welcome!

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I just have to laugh at the community sometimes. We all gripe and moan for years about the lack of color in Hero System books and say how it's hurting sales of the books. When Steve finally caves in and gives us a rulesbook that is chock full of full color artwork and full color layouts, we complain about how long the books are and how much they cost.

 

So now we complain about the length of the books and the cost. So Derek works hard to get 6e1, 6e2 and Champions Genre edited down to 240pgs (less than the beloved BBB) and gets the cost down to $40. Which makes Champions one of the best Crunchy RPG value on the market bar none. So what do we do? We complain about possible missing stuff and lack of color art.

 

We can't have it both ways. If we want color artwork and hard cover books, we need to be willing to spend $60 or so for a book. Hero is a small company they don't have the sales to make the Core books a Loss Leader like WoTC or Paizo can.

 

So lets get positive and start thanking Derek for all of his hard work. An inexpensive book is just the thing we need right now to get people to try the system.

 

So thanks Derek!! I for one can't wait to get the new book and I hope this leads to more Rules+Genre book goodness in the future.

 

People are complaining? Give me their names. I know a guy, for the right price, who'll "take care of them." (j/k)

 

As for the colour debate: Personally, I've always been satisfied with the status quo, whatever that happened to be. I liked the B&W stuff by Storn and Andrew Cremeans. I would have preferred colour, but I accepted the economic reality. I'd prefer Hero Games to stay in business, rather than put out pretty books and disappear in a month. When 6e went colour, I thought it was a bad idea, but those books really did look pretty and I don't mind paying a little extra. Now that we're getting back to B&W, I'm going to miss my colour, but I'll adapt. Going colour was an adjustment too, so I'm happy either way. I just want the company to survive and thrive.

[esampson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Folks' date=' I suspect the goal here was to produce a product [i']adequate for most customers' needs.[/i] Not something that would meet all our wishes and expectations. It's affordable, concise and relatively complete. It doesn't have color pages, doesn't have all the bells and whistles we're accustomed to, but it gets the job done. At this point, we should be thankful for that, imo.

 

Actually, it's pretty interesting. Almost all the comments that I'm seeing aren't based on what people want for themselves but what they think will make the product better. People talk about color not because they want to look at color pictures but because they think it will make the game more marketable. My own comments aren't based on the fact that I have a problem with all the optional rules or that I find character generation particularly difficult. I've been making characters for years and have used pretty much all the optional rules at one time or another. Instead they are based on what I think would make the game more accessible to new players.

[Gary Miles]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I've always been of the opinion that rulebooks, being manuals, don't need color.

 

Color is great in my comic books, but I don't need it in a book full of rules.

 

That said, I did color every villain in my 4th Edition Classic Enemies book with colored pencils.

 

I'm growing older, I refuse to grow up.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Will there be a Campaign Ground Rules Sheet? I loved those in 4th Edition. Good set of questions to establish expectations from the outset. Great tool for GMs.

[Corsair]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I've always been of the opinion that rulebooks, being manuals, don't need color.

 

Color is great in my comic books, but I don't need it in a book full of rules.

 

That said, I did color every villain in my 4th Edition Classic Enemies book with colored pencils.

 

I'm growing older, I refuse to grow up.

 

But did you stay inside the lines?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Will there be a Campaign Ground Rules Sheet? I loved those in 4th Edition. Good set of questions to establish expectations from the outset. Great tool for GMs.

 

There's not a pre-made form to fill in, but the questions and considerations it covered are all discussed in the "Playing Comic Book Campaigns" section of the book (which includes subsections like Points & Power Levels, Creating Champions Campaigns, and Running Champions Campaigns).

[RexMundi]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

And so spoke the Prophet Derek Hiemforth, and Behold, the product demanded descended from the Heavens on a chariot of Gold pulled by 5 Ki-Rin, a Lammasu and a small Puffin of nondescript origin. Ring the Bells and let it be known that Good things do Happen in the world still......

 

Sounds like what I (and more then a few others) have been looking for since oh, the last BBB. So, already shook down the FLGS's around here, and a few other places as well. A LOT (Seriously I could give you a number, heh) of interest here. Including serious intent from folks that refused to move forward from the BBB days.

 

~Rex.... Print...Pronto..... Need Books!

[GestaltBennie]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

And here I just noted in another thread how I simply wasn't going to pay $110 dollars to have the two part 6th edition and Champions.

 

And hey, how's my little buddy Bennie? Haven't seen you in a long, long time. Back in Canada?

 

(and yes, keeping the mask on)

;-)

 

Yep, back in Canada, I've been back for about twelve years now. I've had some ups and downs, many considerable. I'm surviving, and occasionally, a little better than that, in large part due to friends.

[Tasha]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Will there be a Campaign Ground Rules Sheet? I loved those in 4th Edition. Good set of questions to establish expectations from the outset. Great tool for GMs.

 

Hopefully one will appear for Download in the free stuff on the homepage.

 

To the Person who wants a new character sheet. Perhaps they could lay one out and donate it to the community.

[tomd1969]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Hopefully one will appear for Download in the free stuff on the homepage.

 

To the Person who wants a new character sheet. Perhaps they could lay one out and donate it to the community.

 

Co-signed.

 

Congratulations, Derek.

 

While I'm saddened that Steve's work on the 6th ed is kinda sorta (I know it's not really; that's why I said "kinda sorta." I didn't fall off a turnip truck, you know) being pushed to the side/replaced, I think this is a good direction for Hero to be going in.

[steriaca]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Feedback is one of the few Limitations (possibly the only one) where multiple "versions" of it with the same name were left on the individual Powers. In other words' date=' there's a [i']Feedback[/i] Limitation on Barrier, Duplication, Mind Link, Reflection, and Telepathy, because it worked just enough differently on each one to make it a bit of a PITB to try and combine it into a single "Feedback" Power Modifier.

 

While it is sad that Feedback is still a jumbled mess, it is not a deal killer to me. I'm still going to give the company my $40+Shipping And Handeling+Wisconson Sails Tax moungths in advance (asuming I can scratch up the cash), and have the 'rents wait for it. Just make shure you give me a notice when it ships.

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I just have to laugh at the community sometimes. We all gripe and moan for years about the lack of color in Hero System books and say how it's hurting sales of the books. When Steve finally caves in and gives us a rulesbook that is chock full of full color artwork and full color layouts, we complain about how long the books are and how much they cost.

 

So now we complain about the length of the books and the cost. So Derek works hard to get 6e1, 6e2 and Champions Genre edited down to 240pgs (less than the beloved BBB) and gets the cost down to $40. Which makes Champions one of the best Crunchy RPG value on the market bar none. So what do we do? We complain about possible missing stuff and lack of color art.

 

Hang on, I haven’t seen anyone complaining here. I think it is only natural that people supporting an upcoming products will throw around ideas, comments and questions with the goal of improving the product. I think that we all understand that whatever is put forward here has probably already being considered and rejected for good reasons. So why are people throwing ideas? Ok, I won’t speak for “people” but myself I am sometime just to make sure some small matter hasn’t been oversighted. You know, I’d be very worried if the only discussion in this thread would be about how we are thankful to Derek (which we are). I’d see it as lukewarm interest at best. This is the HERO community darn it, everyone has an opinion and loves the system enough to put it forward for consideration !

 

We can't have it both ways. If we want color artwork and hard cover books' date=' we need to be willing to spend $60 or so for a book. Hero is a small company they don't have the sales to make the Core books a Loss Leader like WoTC or Paizo can. [/quote'] Actually, I don’t want it both ways. I’d shell $80 for a full colour hardback of Champions Complete but I would NEVER advocate for such a scheme as in my opinion it is an absolutely not viable option.

 

So lets get positive and start thanking Derek for all of his hard work. An inexpensive book is just the thing we need right now to get people to try the system.

 

So thanks Derek!! I for one can't wait to get the new book and I hope this leads to more Rules+Genre book goodness in the future.

 

I already said as much in a previous mail but I don’t believe being thankful precludes throwing opinions in the air. At the same time I believe that having some people feel they have to jump in “defence” of the book against so called naysayer IS also healthy. It shows that people care. So far though I haven’t seen even a doubter on this thread let alone a naysayer.

 

Actually' date=' it's pretty interesting. Almost all the comments that I'm seeing aren't based on what people want for themselves but what they think will make the product better. People talk about color not because they want to look at color pictures but because they think it will make the game more marketable. My own comments aren't based on the fact that I have a problem with all the optional rules or that I find character generation particularly difficult. I've been making characters for years and have used pretty much all the optional rules at one time or another. Instead they are based on what I think would make the game more accessible to new players.[/quote']

 

This. I find acronyms like DMCV add an unnecessary level of opaqueness to newcomers and I believe that the Abrams Tank having an obviously wrong weight take away a bit of credibility to the table but in no way does it change my desire to get the book.

 

 

To the Person who wants a new character sheet. Perhaps they could lay one out and donate it to the community.

 

And, assuming I am this person, this is a perfect example of what esampson is saying. I don’t want a new character sheet. I don’t even use the character sheet because I use HERO Designer. The only reason I suggested it could be tweaked is because a lot (or at least some) people will look at the character sheet of a game to give them an advance idea of a system. Does it look cool, functional, complicated, organised, etc… The official character sheet, I’ll say it again, looks very good except that when you look at it, or when you look at an official write-up in any HERO book for that matter, the long list of characteristics make the game look more complicated than it is especially since past PRE :

 

1) Most characteristics are acronyms that might not be self evident to a newcomer

2) Most characteristics are duplicated in another functional section on the sheet.

 

So my point is it might only need a slight reshuffling and the character write-ups in the book could organise the characteristics section a bit better instead of being shown as a seemingly long list of characteristics.

 

I’d be happy to give it a go myself if only I had a working copy of the sheet and the appropriate software to modify it but since Derek was mentioning he believed no sheet would be included in the book, the point is probably moot

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I’d be happy to give it a go myself if only I had a working copy of the sheet and the appropriate software to modify it but since Derek was mentioning he believed no sheet would be included in the book' date=' the point is probably moot [/quote']

 

Oops, I see how I gave you that impression, but let me be more clear: Unless something changes due to space constraints or something, there will be a character sheet in the book. I just meant that (A) I was probably the wrong person to ask for suggestions on how to best change the existing sheet, since I never use them, and ( I lobbied against including one, because I don't think that many people use them anymore (at least, not by photocopying blank sheets from the book). But I lobbied unsuccessfully for that, and the intent is to include one.

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Oops' date=' I see how I gave you that impression, but let me be more clear: Unless something changes due to space constraints or something, there [b']will[/b] be a character sheet in the book. I just meant that (A) I was probably the wrong person to ask for suggestions on how to best change the existing sheet, since I never use them, and ( I lobbied against including one, because I don't think that many people use them anymore (at least, not by photocopying blank sheets from the book). But I lobbied unsuccessfully for that, and the intent is to include one.

 

Sorry, actually you were clear the first time around. I just jumped to conclusion. Bad me, Bad!