[New Product] Champions Complete

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I think overall' date=' it's a good move to take advantage of the existing brand identity. Once we get folks in, we can show them all that the system can do, and that it's not just about supers. [/quote']

 

Also (and at this point, I should really stress that I'm not an employee of Hero Games, and this is just my own opinion), I suspect that -- in retrospect -- it may have been a mistake to ever split "Champions" and "the HERO System" conceptually at all. Champions was very successful and very influential, and I wonder if introducing "the HERO System" into the equation might just have watered down the brand and/or confused some people. Brand recognition is a tough thing to achieve, and maybe it would have been best to hold on tight to it like a rat clinging to a cheese...

 

Again, certainly not saying they shouldn't have made it a universal game, and done non-supers things with it. I just wonder if it might have been better from a sales & branding perspective to keep things focused on the name "Champions." In other words, instead of making the rules engine stand alone as the "HERO System," and then publishing (for example) Fantasy HERO as the book for using the HERO System rules with fantasy, maybe it would have been better from the very beginning if the rules had stayed "Champions," and they published something like "Champions Fantasy" -- the book that shows you how to use the Champions rules engine with fantasy.

 

Just navel-gazing, but does seem like even now -- over 20 years after 4E -- you still encounter gamers who don't quite understand the relationship between Champions and the HERO System, or don't realize they're related at all, or have heard of Champions but not the HERO System, or even somehow think that Champions died after the BBB or some such thing. Just wondering if sticking with one name would have helped that.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I respect the opinions expressed on this thread, notably Derek's above, because he's now one of the guys responsible for the rulebook and privy to more inside info than most of us.

 

That said, I'm not sure it's fair to draw too many parallels to the situation in the RPG marketplace today to that of the past. In 1989 when 4E Champs/HERO and the BBB came out, the tabletop RPG gaming community was both much larger and much less diverse and sophisticated in its gaming options and preferences. The hobby was still fairly early in its evolution, and at that time the universal RPG concept seemed at the cutting edge of where it was going. Experienced gamers were often looking to experiment with genres they hadn't played before, and there were plenty of venues by which new gamers could be drawn into trying something out. Under those circumstances I can't fault Hero Games for wanting to make the system universal and market it that way -- it was arguably the right move at the time.

 

Nowadays the hobby community is a smaller, more marginal group, and within that group there is such a plethora of diverse game choices that -- not unlike contemporary television audiences -- the player base has fragmented. Gamers have often found a preferred niche they like to stay within. Casual players looking to try the RPG experience are going first and in larger numbers to video games, which nowadays have a much larger profile and readier accessibility than tabletop. Within the present climate I can't fault Hero Games for deciding that their most effective marketing strategy will be to primarily stake out their own niche with their most proven brand.

[rstehwien]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Been busy, missed some of the posts so I'm catching up a bit. I directly dropped a line to Derek to express my excitement about CC and Eternity Island. Had a 25+ year love of Hero (not always playing) that I don't intend to stop now.

 

Long winded stuff below hidden in sections to not be such a bother.:

 

REGARDING HERO SYSTEM vs CHAMPIONS COMPLETE

 

 

Despite wanting "Hero System" rather than "Champions Complete" (would rather have a multigenre core book than a supers focused one); I am really looking forward to the book. I love it when authors listen to feedback and like the idea of "elegant crunch".

 

Think of the Champions material as an extra bonus. It's STILL a multi-genre core book' date=' but it also comes with a free campaign book. Just like the 4th Edition Champions also had the thinner Hero System book with the brownish cover full of different genre characters. The contents were the same in both books, save for the Champs stuff tacked in the back of the bigger book. I doubt if it would make much difference in price with a small print run to shave off the Champions pages.[/quote']

 

It is "Hero Complete" just with a short Genre booklet tacked onto the end. Pretty much like 4th editions Big Blue Book was. So if you are not playing Superheroes' date=' just Ignore the last pages of the book. Everything else is in there.[/quote']

 

He knows what it is. he's just saying he'd rather it was being predominantly presented as a universal RPG that touches equally on many genres' date=' rather than as a superhero RPG that you can also use for many other genres. (We've also been talking about it on rpg.net.)[/quote']

So as Derek mentioned, I know that CC has all the generic goodness that the mammoth books do but it is a matter of presentation and preference for me. I personally don't us Hero System for Supers (despite learning the system with Champions 1st... supers stopping to rest didn't fly with my 15 year old self and still doesn't); I prefer other systems for supers. But I did learn to love the system when Fantasy Hero first came out.

 

So when the universal Hero came out I was ecstatic and always liked the brown cover book more than the BBB. Still have a couple copies that have survived.

 

Why does it matter to me that the new 6E book is CC rather than generic hero? The presentation as a superhero game through examples and art will influence the choice of what the system is used for and likely even the mindset when playing another genre. I'll have to sell the "superhero game" as a good choice for fantasy/pulp/sci-fi/multigenre harder than I would a generic system that includes images and examples for fantasy. I've experienced that effect with Mutants and Masterminds but not had the difficulty with Savage Worlds which presents itself as a generic system. Hero 6E was a hard sell because it was two bullet stopping books (fear of complexity and cost made it hard to sell). So I was one of the people that wanted a Hero Concise set of rules.

 

Do I know CC is still universal? Yes of course.

 

Do I think it is awesome CC is being made? Yes I'm all aquiver

 

Will I buy it? Several copies (one for me one for some old buddies who loved Hero 4E and earlier but were turned off by the size of 5E and more so of 6E)

 

 

 

REGARDING SUPERHERO SYSTEM POPULARITY

 

 

And face is -- superheroes are very marketable these days....

This statement actually made the whole choice of CC resonate with me as a good one. Champions always has been the best seller of Hero (followed by fantasy) and the popularity of supers in other media might help.

 

I would add that the competition is much stiffer at this point... the movies are mainly Marvel but people know DC and there are RPGs out there with those settings. Yes there is the Champions Online game... but it hasn't been a top 10 MMO. Will a potential new player choose Champions over DC Heroes or Marvel Roleplaying without outside influence of an existing player/gm?

 

My totally unsubstantiated theory (no market research) is that CC will sell to existing and old hero gamers (seen several lapsed hero folks interested in the new smaller format) as well as existing rpg players and their groups rather than some supers curious non-gamer. No matter how you slice it Hero will be more complicated than Marvel (but in same ball park as M&M) and the "looks like math" will scare many casual players just like it always has.

 

 

 

REGARDING UNIVERSAL SYSTEMS

 

 

Frankly' date=' I think most other genres sell better with a pre-defined setting attached anyway, and folks don't necessarily look for generic systems for those. The customers who do look for a generic game to build other genres/settings with seem pretty well aware of their options, so they're not really who we need to attract to bring new folks into the Hero System.[/quote']

Well, I'd expect it's likely true that brand-new RPG gamers (new to RPGs altogether, not just new to Champions/HERO) are unlikely to go right for a universal RPG system unless that's what their "recruiters" play. More likely, someone coming in "cold" was drawn in by some cool-sounding setting/genre combination.

 

The main advantage and draw of a universal RPG is elimination of changing rules when changing genres. But when you don't yet play even one genre, that probably doesn't mean anything to you.

 

So at this late stage in the life of the tabletop RPG hobby, it probably isn't all that necessary to heavily promote Champions/HERO as a universal RPG. Hero Games is probably safe to go the route of primarily positioning it as a Supers RPG, with its universal RPG aspect as secondary. Why? Because new gamers are more likely to go for a Superhero RPG than a universal RPG anyway, and existing gamers already know Champions/HERO is a universal RPG, because it's been one for 30 years now, and has a long-standing reputation in the hobby as one of the main universal RPGs.

 

Don't get me wrong... I'm absolutely not saying Hero Games should abandon the notion of the HERO System rules engine as a universal RPG altogether. Only that promoting it that way probably isn't necessary, and promoting it as a superhero game is probably a better bet from a sales standpoint. Definitely keep its universal aspects in there and mention them secondarily, but it's mostly veteran gamers who care about "universal" games anyway, and veteran gamers will know about it already.

I think overall' date=' it's a good move to take advantage of the existing brand identity. Once we get folks in, we can show them all that the system can do, and that it's not just about supers. [/quote']

There are a few discussions about choosing a generic system on rpg.net but yes I'd agree that generally new gamers pick some cool setting. Maybe later if they want to try other settings but get tired of learning a new system every time then they look for a generic one. But there are exceptions to that. Savage Worlds bills itself as a generic system and from the very beginning it gathered a lot of attention. Selling a core book for $10 was a master stroke. Helps that it has some very interesting settings/campaigns and targets a growing segment of the market - the gamers who don't have a whole lot of time to prep and also those that want campaigns with beginning, middle, end.

 

Glad for the statment "Don't get me wrong... I'm absolutely not saying Hero Games should abandon the notion of the HERO System rules engine as a universal RPG altogether." above. But there is someone on rpg.net who basically belives CC is the death of hero as a generic system. An extreme belief to be sure but still going with CC makes a statement about focus.

FWIW that does seem to match what I find on gaming-related websites. I can't remember the last time I read someone posting on one of those sites to ask' date=' "What generic systems are out there?" But there are plenty of questions along the lines of, "I'm thinking of using System X, Y, or Z to run such-and-such a game -- what do you recommend?"[/quote']

Often on rpg.net you do see just that question. Often a clearly generic system will be recommended (Hero, GURPS, Savage Worlds, Heroquest, Other Worlds, BESM). Supers systems (like M&M) are often recommended because a good supers system needs to handle so much. But then there are the totally wacky suggestions where they say "use system B; all you need to do is [rewrite the rules]". This suggestion makes some people very leery of suggestions where it isn't clear that the system being suggested isn't a generic one or focused on the genre in question. They are even leery of suggestions of supers game because "I don't play 'men in tights' games".

 

That is actually part of the reason I'm sad... harder to sell.

 

 

 

REGARDING BRAND

 

 

OK' date=' that's cool. Personally, I think going back to the Champions branded approach may give a really nice result. In the minds of a lot of gamers Hero System = Champions. We still see folks who have probably had an old timer recommend "Champions" wander in from time to time come through and start asking what's what. Plus, the CO crowd will be able to find the PnP game more easily if they decide to check it out. [/quote']

Also (and at this point' date=' I should [b']really[/b] stress that I'm not an employee of Hero Games, and this is just my own opinion), I suspect that -- in retrospect -- it may have been a mistake to ever split "Champions" and "the HERO System" conceptually at all. Champions was very successful and very influential, and I wonder if introducing "the HERO System" into the equation might just have watered down the brand and/or confused some people. Brand recognition is a tough thing to achieve, and maybe it would have been best to hold on tight to it like a rat clinging to a cheese...

 

Again, certainly not saying they shouldn't have made it a universal game, and done non-supers things with it. I just wonder if it might have been better from a sales & branding perspective to keep things focused on the name "Champions." In other words, instead of making the rules engine stand alone as the "HERO System," and then publishing (for example) Fantasy HERO as the book for using the HERO System rules with fantasy, maybe it would have been better from the very beginning if the rules had stayed "Champions," and they published something like "Champions Fantasy" -- the book that shows you how to use the Champions rules engine with fantasy.

 

Just navel-gazing, but does seem like even now -- over 20 years after 4E -- you still encounter gamers who don't quite understand the relationship between Champions and the HERO System, or don't realize they're related at all, or have heard of Champions but not the HERO System, or even somehow think that Champions died after the BBB or some such thing. Just wondering if sticking with one name would have helped that.

Ah, brand. I mentioned a little of this on rpg.net to Derek. At one point over 20 years ago Champions was a separate and powerful brand name. At that time it *may* have been a mistake to make generic Hero (I don't think so) but that ship sailed a long time ago. Pattern Ghost said that for some Hero System == Champions and that is true but the interpretation is different for some. To some Hero is the superhero game Champions. For others Hero is a universal system that is sometimes called Champions because it began as a superhero game of that name. Now the brand of Hero is likely just as strong as Hero.

 

The "failure" of establishing a separate Hero brand, if there was one. was likely going out of print for so long between 4E and 5E, the collapse of Hero-ICE alliance, and Fuzion. Again nothing much to back that up but I recall Hero doing quite well in my area. Sure it had a math heavy reputation but I found numerous groups playing it all over. The publishing gap and diversification of the gaming insustry not to mention the tidle wave of D&D 3 and the OGL made it hard to really capture the market. Typically markets become dominated by 2 or 3 main competitors (there I go using my MBA); for the RPG market in 2001 that was Wizards and White Wolf.

 

Even now 20+ years later there are people irritated at the move from Champions to Hero because it messed with the brand and there feeling what the game was about; there will be some irritated about going back because of the same reason.

 

Overall I'm pleased with the more concise direction and sad about the focus on superheroes. There may be a Fantasy Hero complete made but that both doesn't address my "concern" and adds an irritant. I don't want to be sold the core rules over and over.

 

 

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I just want to say I appreciate the effort it took to format that post.

[rstehwien]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I just want to say I appreciate the effort it took to format that post.

No problem. Wrote up a big post, organized responses into sections, but then realized I really didn't want to inflict a "giant wall of text" on someone

 

Got things off chest and available if anyone cares. Could probably have improved the text... but had to get back to work rather than write a dissertation.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

More musings...

 

I guess a better way to say what I mean would be, I wonder if they should have used the name "Champions" for the universal RPG. After all, there's nothing inherently superheroey about the word "champions;" it's not like the original game was called "Masked Capes of Justice" or something. There are many kinds of "champions."

 

So although the game was initially about superheroes, they could have -- over time -- morphed that to where "Champions" meant a lot of things. Just like we had Fantasy Hero and Star Hero and Pulp Hero and whatnot, maybe it would have been Fantasy Champions and Star Champions and Pulp Champions and such. I just have a hunch that it might have made the connection to the original game a little clearer.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I directly dropped a line to Derek to express my excitement about CC and Eternity Island.

 

Thanks! I tried twice to reply over on rpg.net, but the reply didn't seem to go through either time...

[rstehwien]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I guess a better way to say what I mean would be, I wonder if they should have used the name "Champions" for the universal RPG. After all, there's nothing inherently superheroey about the word "champions;" it's not like the original game was called "Masked Capes of Justice" or something. There are many kinds of "champions."

Very true "champions" isn't tied to supers. But it might have confused the champions universe setting name. Course there is the multiverse concept in champions (now, cant recall if there was then) so the other games could have just been alternate worlds and kept the conceptual tie.

 

Thanks! I tried twice to reply over on rpg.net' date=' but the reply didn't seem to go through either time... [/quote']

I did get them... one 2 days ago and one just now (and responded). Was behind on my correspondance and sometimes the rpg.net server is a bit wonky so may not have told you nicely that I got it. Doesn't help rpg.net often fails to send me notifications now... used to but now it seems I don't get many.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Very true "champions" isn't tied to supers. But it might have confused the champions universe setting name.

 

Yes, now it would. But back then, when they were publishing Espionage/Danger International, and Justice Inc., and Robot Warriors and stuff, there really wasn't a coherent "Champions Universe" yet... just a largely-disconnected semi-random assemblage of comic-booky tidbits.

 

I did get them... one 2 days ago and one just now (and responded). Was behind on my correspondance and sometimes the rpg.net server is a bit wonky so may not have told you nicely that I got it. Doesn't help rpg.net often fails to send me notifications now... used to but now it seems I don't get many.

 

Gotcha. Yeah, it didn't confirm anything was sent, and it didn't store in my Sent Items folder over there, so I didn't think it did anything.

[Tasha]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

When the decision to Push "The Hero System" came in the days or GURPS ascendancy. SJG was publishing a ton of licenced genre books and doing pretty darned well with them. Hero, had been releasing Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, Champions all with slightly different versions of the Core Hero System rules. Also, Players wanted more Genre/Setting book for their money and were sick of paying for 50+ pages of rules they had already purchased time and time again.

 

So the BBB was released. It was Champions, but the rules were made to be generic to all genres. There WERE some missteps (ie Independant Advantage). Then Genre books were published, and they were small enough to be inexpensive and many gamers were satisfied. Books sold pretty well. Hero gamers wanted more stuff, but Hero never seemed to have enough bandwith to publish enough books to satisfy their fans.

 

To be honest, I can understand why bundling an edited version of the Core rules with an edited version of the most popular Genre book was done. I am sure that it will sell very well.

 

I am not looking forward to revisting the days of 1st edition Fantasy Hero and Danger International. Where I am paying for page count of stuff that will be basically copied word for word from the Champions rules. Worse yet would be where the decision would be to limit the Genre Chapter's pagecount to keep the book price down (ie just like the early days of hero).

[Tasha]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

By the time it came to decide on the system name it has already fractured into many different books all using nearly the same system (ie Champions, Espionage, Justice Inc, Fantasy Hero, Danger International, Robot Warriors, Horror Hero etc). I am glad that they decided to call the system "Hero System" it divorced the system rules from the Superheroic Genre. This was a good thing. Fantasy Hero suggests to me a Fantasy Genre game played in the Hero System. Champions Fantasy suggests to me a Fantasy genre Superhero supplement, not a Fantasy game. It's why WoTC calls their Modern genre book d20 Modern and Not Dungeons and Dragons Modern. One stresses that it uses the d20 system in a modern setting, the second suggests that it is D&D (ie Warriors, Clerics, Magic users, Dwarves, Orcs etc) in a Modern world. They set up 2 different sets of expectations.

 

The best way to do things is a bit of a mix. We have Fantasy Hero and a small logo graphic that says "From the creators of "Champions"" using the Champions logo for the text.

[Tasha]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Yes' date=' [i']now[/i] it would. But back then, when they were publishing Espionage/Danger International, and Justice Inc., and Robot Warriors and stuff, there really wasn't a coherent "Champions Universe" yet... just a largely-disconnected semi-random assemblage of comic-booky tidbits.

 

Well to be fair the original books had a mismash of elements from George's original Guardians Universe, his player's universes, and the universes of various writers (ie Dennis Mallonee, Aaron Allston etc). Some of those elements became the property of Hero Games and were eventually set together in their own universe with 4th edition.

[JohnTaber]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Of course I am 100% behind HD supporting CC but there is so little changes compared to 6E1 and 6E2 that creating a different template for it sends a very wrong message (you can choose 5th' date=' 6th or CC which sounds like a new iteration). CC [i']is[/i] 6E!

 

I'd rather have to choose 6E template and have a check box under Campaign Rules > Rules tab to make it 100% compliant with the few skills modified and other tidbits.

 

I'm not 100% sure I agree because there might be some subtle name changes and such that I would want to see in HD...eh...no biggie...as long as there is HD support that would be good.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I am not looking forward to revisting the days of 1st edition Fantasy Hero and Danger International. Where I am paying for page count of stuff that will be basically copied word for word from the Champions rules. Worse yet would be where the decision would be to limit the Genre Chapter's pagecount to keep the book price down (ie just like the early days of hero).

 

Though it's obviously not up to me (it's not my company), I actually wouldn't advocate that approach, for exactly that reason. I think the rules should only be in one book, and other genre books should be supplements that don't include the rules. Yes, this would mean that fantasy-only players would have to buy Champions to get the rules, and the fantasy book for the fantasy stuff, but I wouldn't personally expect/want people to buy the rules over and over again.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

No problem. Wrote up a big post, organized responses into sections, but then realized I really didn't want to inflict a "giant wall of text" on someone

 

Got things off chest and available if anyone cares. Could probably have improved the text... but had to get back to work rather than write a dissertation.

 

Seriously, trying to multiquote drives me nuts. That had to take some fortitude to get through. =)

[RexMundi]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Hmm...got something to post, but...gotta get back to work. Place holder for later.

 

~Rex

[gojira]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I am not looking forward to revisting the days of 1st edition Fantasy Hero and Danger International. Where I am paying for page count of stuff that will be basically copied word for word from the Champions rules. Worse yet would be where the decision would be to limit the Genre Chapter's pagecount to keep the book price down (ie just like the early days of hero).

 

 

To be honest, I rather agree. What I think might mitigate this is:

 

1) More customization of the rules, per genre. If Fantasy Hero Complete is just a copy-paste of the rules, that's bad. If there's a lot of tweaks, pre-built powers, and special ways of handling things just for fantasy, that's better. At least I'd feel like I'd be getting something more for my money (and page count).

 

2) Not too many rulebooks. I could see adding Fantasy Hero Complete, and Action Hero Complete. (The latter being my turn of phrase for a modern campaign book.) Action Hero Complete would handle Modern, Pulp, Cyberpunk, Hong Kong Action Films, Post Apocalyptic, Western, possibly Urban Fantasy, Anime and perhaps Space Opera as well. (I'm not really a huge enough fan of SciFi, say of the Star Trek genre, to go for a rulebook just for that.)

 

 

I *think* you could market that successfully. Buy one rule book that most matches your interests, and then you have a very large number of genre books and source books that support that one rule book. And three rulebooks is not so many that it causes customer confusion. Supers, Modern, Fantasy; that seems easy to grasp, and a smaller number of core rules reduces the "I'm always buying the same rules" issue.

 

I'll add too that, while my paycheck doesn't depend on anything here being correct, I see other companies publish core rule books as loss-leaders. Then they make their money on shorter, faster supplements. And the market seems to want that. Large stodgy books full of minutea don't really do it for me either. This goes for both rulebooks as well as supplements.

 

And I hope that Hero Games has plans to make sure Champions Complete is well supported. A couple of adventures right off the bat for early buyers would help a lot, methinks.

[Pattern Ghost]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Has Viper been done for 6th edition yet? If it hasn't, that'd be a nice sourcebook to see, along with the usual suspects.

[Greywind]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Though it's obviously not up to me (it's not my company)' date=' I actually wouldn't advocate that approach, for exactly that reason. I think the rules should only be in one book, and other genre books should be supplements that don't include the rules. Yes, this would mean that fantasy-only players would have to buy Champions to get the rules, and the fantasy book for the fantasy stuff, but I wouldn't personally expect/want people to buy the rules over and over again. [/quote']

 

Honestly, that is one of the things that bothered me the most looking at Rifts books. It seemed like 90% of any given book was a rehash of rules.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Has Viper been done for 6th edition yet? If it hasn't' date=' that'd be a nice sourcebook to see, along with the usual suspects.[/quote']

 

Nope. I wouldn't mind doing a revision sometime, but I have a lot on my plate and not much energy for it at the moment.

 

Still I'm curious whether the nine years between now and the last supplement will make Hero fans more receptive to a revision, or will three books in twenty years (assuming a 2013 publication date) be too much.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

And I hope that Hero Games has plans to make sure Champions Complete is well supported. A couple of adventures right off the bat for early buyers would help a lot' date=' methinks.[/quote']

 

I think DoJ has been pretty consistent in their comments that scenario books have not sold well, so they're not high on the agenda for future books. That said, it seems like Kickstarter provides a nice platform if they wanted to test the waters for a scenario book again. Worst case, it gets limited support, they don't waste time on a book that won't meet sales expectations and they have another example of why DoJ isn't publishing scenarios.

 

But it sure would be nice to see CC sitting right beside a selection of adventures for Champions. A retailer could put this together quite nicely with third party scenarios (Balabanto's come to mind).

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Nope. I wouldn't mind doing a revision sometime, but I have a lot on my plate and not much energy for it at the moment.

 

Still I'm curious whether the nine years between now and the last supplement will make Hero fans more receptive to a revision, or will three books in twenty years (assuming a 2013 publication date) be too much.

 

VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent came out pretty early in the history of the rebooted setting. I think it would be cool to incorporate all the developments that Hero Games and Cryptic Studios came up with over the intervening years, as well as make the book more consistent with background history defined after its publication. (I've enjoyed researching some of the latter issues myself.)

[gojira]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

But it sure would be nice to see CC sitting right beside a selection of adventures for Champions. A retailer could put this together quite nicely with third party scenarios (Balabanto's come to mind).

 

 

I was actually thinking more of the PDF variety. Cheaper to make, easier to sell. Even just an update to a 5th ed. adventure would help. Any brand new customers would appreciate it. I think you have to develop a line, or folks will just stop checking for more product. (Again, an opinion from someone who doesn't actually work in the industry. )

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Regarding art, I went on Sam's site tolook at his work and was pleasantly surprised. There are pieces of art that I really like in various HERO books and cover that I didn't even realised it was his. My expectations are very high now!

 

Regarding B&W interior, one super book that I believe is very well executed in that regard and feels like a four color supplement is GURPS Super 3rd (not 4th). I have the 3rd or 4th printing which got a major art overhaul compared to the previous printings so be careful.

[Lucius]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

More musings...

 

I guess a better way to say what I mean would be, I wonder if they should have used the name "Champions" for the universal RPG. After all, there's nothing inherently superheroey about the word "champions;" it's not like the original game was called "Masked Capes of Justice" or something. There are many kinds of "champions."

 

So although the game was initially about superheroes, they could have -- over time -- morphed that to where "Champions" meant a lot of things. Just like we had Fantasy Hero and Star Hero and Pulp Hero and whatnot, maybe it would have been Fantasy Champions and Star Champions and Pulp Champions and such. I just have a hunch that it might have made the connection to the original game a little clearer.

 

I have to agree with this. But they'd have had to find a different name for the super game than just "Champions." maybe "Comic Book Champions."

 

edit: In any case, this is fruitless speculation; the decision was made long ago.

 

And now I'm wondering about the religious uses of Hero Designer....

 

"Hero System is not a religion. It gives you the tools to build a religion." Linda Older.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary promises that if you build it, they will come