[New Product] Champions Complete

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

At one time' date=' tables were problematic for ereader formats; I don't know to what extent they still are (I don't have an ebook reader myself), but there are a fair number of things in the rules that pretty much have to be in tables. Though I'm sure there would be interest in possibly doing an ebook version if it's technologically and financially feasible.[/quote']

 

I have a Nook Color. It reads both eBook files (in the ePub format) and PDFs (with a third-party app). Each page of an ePub file has room for maybe two paragraphs of standard text. Occasionally you can put on a picture. ePub is not a good format for something you will want to reference because it's fairly hard to navigate and you need a live hyperlink if you want to go somewhere specific.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

ePub = Electronic Pub ing?

 

 

 

QM

[gojira]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Link to ePub.

 

Semi serious book that needs to be researched: Bar Hero/Pub Hero.

[Tasha]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

We've needed a "Your First Champions Adventure" for the longest time. A really good tutorial to get player groups and GMs started fast.

 

A new "Viper's Nest", "Island of Dr Destroyer", "Champions: The Adventure" written for 6e CC.

 

Perhaps written assuming that "The Champions" will be used as Pregens with Villains drawn from the Champions book (or Download). Hopefully with a Map of the Battle area that could be printed out full scale (on multiple sheets of paper of course). If it could be a Downloadable freebie on the Website it would be best. It could also be the first part of a bigger adventure that would be available for sale on the website (Perhaps both print and PDF).

 

The first part would need to be simple, basically launching quickly into a combat. With some investigation following the combat.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

That would be a nice added bonus if it didn't increase the cost of the product' date=' but I think you'd have to be careful of people feeling like they were being "forced" to pay extra for material they'd only use once (if at all). [/quote']

 

I definitely agree with this. The more that's bundled into an individual product, the more potential buyers look at it and question its value to them, as they may not want all the pieces. If we bundled up, say, Star Hero, the Hero Rules, the Terran Empire setting and three adventures, would this be a great deal?

 

Maybe. If I want to run a game set in the Terran Empire, and I'm new to Hero, I can use all these things. But if I'm a player, the adventures and much of the setting materials are of no use to me, but I have to pay for them anyway. Those elements raise the price without raising the value to me. If I'm an experienced Hero gamer, but never played Sci Fi, I might value everything but the rules if I plan on running the game, or I may see value only in the Star Hero and "player knowledge" components of the setting if I plan on playing in this game. If I only wanted 30% of the book, how willing will I be to pay 100% of the price?

 

Champions Complete carries some risk in this regard - the "Champions" section is of limited use if I want to use Hero to run a Pulp game. A much greater risk would be The Compleat Hero System, publishing the rules plus Supers (ie Champions Complete) and then adding similar material from Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, Pulp Hero, Modern Action Hero, Post-Holocaust Hero, Urban Fantasy, Lucha Libre, Horror, Cthulhu, Teen Champions, Live Action Hero and PS 238. It's pretty much guaranteed most of us would place little or no value on portions of the book.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

We've needed a "Your First Champions Adventure" for the longest time. A really good tutorial to get player groups and GMs started fast.

 

Couple weeks ago, I picked up the orginal Viper's Nest adventure, its great. It had three mini scenerios which could be linked and some basic villian stats. I think that something like that should be designed. At the end, there could be a section giving some advice on how you could change the scenerios and or stats for your needs. For example it states that the Viper agents are built with the standard superheroic gudelines in mind. If you want to change the scenerios for a Dark Champins/modern/realistic game, then the advice might be, swap out the blasters for m-16's each agent has wf for each weapon, and no force fields and swap Viper suits for bulletproof vests. Some more advice might be, for fantasy game, perhaps instead of a bank, it is a stronghold, or a wizards tower. If a martial arts game, then make sure the agents have some martial manuevers. Perhaps maybe a paragraph for each major genre. Personally, I would recommmend that VIPER is a cross-genre type organization. No matter what the game, VIPER can be used as its basic version. Also if we keep with the 4thed version found in the BBB, then let the new players know that each nest can be designed deferently to suit the Nest leader's (GM) needs. And if Hero games don't want to rewrite what has come out since 4thed, then I'd suggest a new group to fill this utility.

[Ranxerox]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Link to ePub.

 

Semi serious book that needs to be researched: Bar Hero/Pub Hero.

 

Oooh, oooh, oooh! **frantic arm waving**

 

I volunteer to help with the research.

[Steve]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

For a starter adventure, it could be something as simple as stopping a bank robbery. If you used only the characters in CC, you only need some tactical advice on the villains, a brief description of the scenario and a map of the bank. I seem to recall Crusader and Starburst versus Ogre and one or two other supervillains used for combat examples back in the 3rd(?) edition of the rules. It might be only a few pages at best.

[gojira]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Oooh, oooh, oooh! **frantic arm waving**

 

I volunteer to help with the research.

 

 

Yes, we will certainly need to assemble a top-flight research team.

[memorax300]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent came out pretty early in the history of the rebooted setting. I think it would be cool to incorporate all the developments that Hero Games and Cryptic Studios came up with over the intervening years' date=' as well as make the book more consistent with background history defined after its publication. (I've enjoyed researching some of the latter issues myself.)[/quote']

 

Seconded as well as aupdated 6E version of Demon and possibly Book fo the Destroyer and Machine. I would also like to see a 6E version of Until.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

There was a 3rd edition Champions project (well, sort of) called Super Agents, all about the rank-and-file of organizations like UNTIL. In most Champions campaigns superheroes hold the spotlight while UNTIL agents labor in the background. Super Agents was a campaign book that reverse that by making the non-super-powered agents the stars and superheroes an occasional force that sometimes help and sometimes get in the way.

 

It was interesting idea, but I don't recall whether it really caught on.

[gojira]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

A new "Viper's Nest"' date=' "Island of Dr Destroyer", "Champions: The Adventure" written for 6e CC. [/quote']

 

These are great ideas.

The first part would need to be simple, basically launching quickly into a combat. With some investigation following the combat.

 

I don't mind paying for quality, and ultimately that's what I'm after: a $5-$10 set of adventures to get folks started. While one freebie, "how to play" adventure is OK, Hero Games has to make money somehow.

 

$10 for an evening's fun is about the price of a movie ticket. If the rest of the group pitches in for pizza, I'm money ahead. $5 is just cheap, period. But I want a quality adventure: good characters, good writing, and good explanations of what to do. I realize this represents some initial investment for HG. I was hoping that they could avoid printing costs and maximize profit by going the PDF route.

 

 

Another thought: I recently picked up San Angelo: City of Heroes by Patrick Sweeney from a used bookstore, and I have to say that the older source book still holds up. I found I liked the 250 point superheroes especially. Yes they aren't as capable, but they're easier to comprehend at a glance, and adding a bit of XP allows *me* to customize them. The modern 450 point published heroes are pushing Mary Sue creations for me. Too much going on; too much unnecessary detail.

 

So I'd recommend any "starting adventures" use simpler 300 point to 350 point characters. Something that a new player could glance at and quickly decide what the character was actually capable of, and how it was going to play. The player can add skills, background, and tricky powers themselves if they like. No need for the writer to fill in all of the possibilities. Starting villains would need to be powered down too, or new ones made or carefully selected. Viper seems to fit this bill. Their basic minions seem just right for a new hero to go up against.

 

That's my 2 XP. And something for a line developer to decide. Because it would have to be consistent, or it's not going to make any sense. Random fluctuating power levels in adventure modules would be really bad. Having a starting set of modules ("Champions Adventures 1-5") based on 350 points, and the subsequent modules ("Champions Advanced Adventures") based on 450 point heroes would present a clear product line, imo.

[MisterVimes]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Frankly, were I to write a starter adventure, there is a model of a great starter adventure. Long ago, Allen Varney (I think) wrote a D&D adventure for a book called "Tales of the Planes". The 1st level characters got a tour of the outer planes in a break neck adventure appropriate to their level.

 

The best idea would be to give a tour of the CU that is scaled for starting characters and hooks the new player. Also, providing a chance to use skills, perks, and powers - teaching the game.

[bigdamnhero]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Thanks for the answers, Derek!

 

The modern 450 point published heroes are pushing Mary Sue creations for me. Too much going on; too much unnecessary detail.

I don’t think the power level is the problem, but I agree the character builds are too complicated for an introductory scenario. Tho this is something of a Catch-22: you want enough complexity to show what the system is capable of and showcase its variability – but for an introductory game you want to keep things simple in order to explain basic concepts. I almost wonder if the answer is to include “streamlined” PC write-ups in the module? At a minimum please include printable, playable character sheets that leave off all the math and just focus on what you need to play. I think the bunneh has previously posted the one-page character sheet he uses for convention games. (Which I shamelessly plagiarized for my own games!)

 

As for scenario, I agree starting off with something simple like a bank robbery is great for introducing players who may be new not just to Champions but to Supers gaming in general. I still remember the look on the face of one new player after she heroically threw herself on a hand grenade. (“That’s all the damage I take? Being a superhero is COOL!!”)

 

OTOH, we don’t want to make things so easy that the players conclude the game presents no challenge. So after they wipe up the mooks, send in the Big Bad. Ideally this would be a separate concluding fight (bookending an investigation & roleplaying phase), but if time/space is a concern the boss could just stride in after the last mook falls, give his monologue, and start blasting.

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Instead of forcing people to pay for material they don't want, how about making intro adventures part of a PDF bundle. Buy the PDF of CC normally or buy the CC PDF plus "Viper's Nest" (for example) for a little more.

[gojira]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Or just make them regular old separate PDFs that you can buy anytime you like.

 

I do think it wouldn't hurt to have some "cross advertising" on the HG site. On Amazon, they have "people who viewed/bought this item also bought..." and some additional stuff.

[Steve]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Really simple scenarios could just be giveaways, like the bank robbery scenario. A few of these could be culled and repurposed from previously-published books, probably pretty easily. And if someone liked the sample, they could be directed to the full book to buy the rest.

 

Creating just one or two starter scenarios that are freebies does not seem like it would be a difficult task, and they could also be offered on websites like rpgnow, widening the marketing.

[Sketchpad]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I would love to see a line of "Champions Classics" released either as PDFs of the old stuff, or updated versions of the old stuff And by old stuff, I'm talking about 1e-4e

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

You know, Digital Hero provided a lot of Champions adventures during its run, many of them suitable as beginning game sessions (particularly those intended for convention games). Hero Games owned all of them when they were published, and I assume Cryptic bought their rights as part of the Champions IP. I wonder how difficult it would be to update some of those to 6E and make a PDF bundle out of them?

[DShomshak]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I'm a little late in the discussion, but I think publishing some starter adventures would be a really good idea. For some time I've been concerned that HERO wasn't as accessible to new players as it might be. A sample showing "Here's how you play, here's a starter scenario," could be helpful.

 

(Heck, I've been doing this for decades and I STILL find First Scenario of the Campaign a bitch to design.)

 

Dean Shomshak

[DreadDomain]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Totally agree. Especially the bit about the opening chapter art. That did look nice and it did give a nice "pulse pounding" feel' date=' suggestive of superhero art. However, if I had a preference, I like the art from M&M* or the Champions Genre book. [/quote']

 

Sure but I was aiming for a B&W book since this is what we are gonna get.

 

Since HG already paid for it' date=' they could always recycle it.[/quote']

 

That and they could use Cryptic's concept art I believe.

[RexMundi]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Uggh. I hate the Cryptic Computer art. Got it all covered with Post It's ....

 

~Rex

[JohnTaber]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

You know' date=' [i']Digital Hero[/i] provided a lot of Champions adventures during its run, many of them suitable as beginning game sessions (particularly those intended for convention games). Hero Games owned all of them when they were published, and I assume Cryptic bought their rights as part of the Champions IP. I wonder how difficult it would be to update some of those to 6E and make a PDF bundle out of them?

 

I agree. Hec, I wrote an adventure in Digital Hero #9 called Infectious Enthusiasm that is intended to be used to introduce Hero. It includes all of the PC and villains and the artwork for them is stellar!

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I'm at the low end of the economic spectrum and yet I have always understood the need to have genre-specific material included. We want to make things easy for new people to get into gaming. I don't consider "rules included!" a waste of space, but a courtesy to others who aren't as familiar with the subject as we are. They need that, as I did when I was first starting out as a player, then a GM.

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

There was a 3rd edition Champions project (well' date=' sort of) called [i']Super Agents[/i], all about the rank-and-file of organizations like UNTIL. In most Champions campaigns superheroes hold the spotlight while UNTIL agents labor in the background. Super Agents was a campaign book that reverse that by making the non-super-powered agents the stars and superheroes an occasional force that sometimes help and sometimes get in the way.

 

It was interesting idea, but I don't recall whether it really caught on.

 

I vaguely remember a book like that. If would be fun to allow new players to have a chioice between running a 300-point superhero or a team of 150-point heroic-level characters that, together were a match for a superhero. I still think it's a good concept, but I lost the book years ago.