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[New Product] Champions Complete


Jason S.Walters

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Um...Frameworks:

 

VVP and Multipower are not afected as I know of this product, difrently than 6ed. There is no Elemental Control, as that function is now taken cair of by a power limitation called "Unified Power". Note: Unified Power is not something new, as it was in the core 6ed books.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

late in the game' date=' but will this be kickstarter or a traditional release?[/quote']

 

Traditional release! The blue-lines have been approved and the book is at the printer already. We're just waiting for the printing to finish and the books to be shipped to Hero Games. Then you just buy it in the store.

 

Will the previously written Champions Villains books be made incompatible by the exclusion of powers like summoning or frameworks like VPP?

 

Everything is compatible. There's a short PDF coming from Derek about how to convert existing character, but the first thing it says is that there's no real need to convert. Certainly nothing big like removing Summoning or any frameworks.

 

Thanks for the clarification. So how will you save space' date=' by removing the example and qa?[/quote']

 

I assume so. CC will have much less explanation. Just the rules. We'll have to wait and see. If this is really a concern, I'll be buying this ASAP, and the base price for the book includes a free PDF, so I'll be able to give a review of CC almost immediately. Just wait a couple of days, and see what people think. It should be that easy.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Summon has not been removed :P

 

No, it hasn't. Gojira's point is that there are NOT any major changes between HS6E and CC like that. In fact, except for extremely minor points (such as how Classes of Minds for mental powers are handled and how Categories of certain skills are handled), CC is HS6E, only presented with comfortable brevity. So, "conversion" should only be needed by the epically anal-retentive.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

No' date=' it hasn't. Gojira's point is that there are [b']NOT [/b]any major changes between HS6E and CC like that. In fact, except for extremely minor points (such as how Classes of Minds for mental powers are handled and how Categories of certain skills are handled), CC is HS6E, only presented with comfortable brevity. So, "conversion" should only be needed by the epically anal-retentive.

 

Indeed. :) If you're already familiar with HERO System Sixth Edition (6E), or have characters built for it, the rules differences in CC are minor, and mostly organizational. Most characters built for 6E don't need to be "converted" at all. If you really want to make sure nothing from an existing character differs in any way from what's in CC, differences that could affect what appears on character sheets include:

 

Classes of Minds has been removed as a concept for Mental Powers (and associated Advantages and Limitations have likewise been removed). Mental Powers work on all characters by default (except as explicitly stated otherwise in the rules); if a character wants a Mental Power to not work vs. (or only work vs.) some subset of characters, he takes an appropriately-valued Limited Power Limitation. So 6E characters can either free themselves of defining a single Class of Minds their Mental Powers work against, or (if it's important to their character concept that their Mental Powers only work against certain types of characters) they can save some CP by applying a Limitation. Characters with the Multiple Classes Adder can also remove that for some CP savings, while characters who had the Limited Class of Minds Limitation can convert it to a Limited Power Limitation of the same value or more.

 

Skills that were purchased in "categories" (Animal Handler, Forgery, Gambling, Navigation, Survival, and Weaponsmith) no longer have a categorized cost structure by default, and are presented as normal 3-point Skills instead. However, "Categorized Skills" is included as an optional way of providing greater detail on any Skill (CC page 23), so characters designed for 6E don't need to change those Skills or their costs to reflect the standard 3-point pricing unless they want to (or unless their GMs require them to).

 

Minor Name Changes: "Power Advantages" are now just Advantages. "Power Limitations" are now just Limitations. "Naked Advantages" are now Independent Advantages.

 

Minor Combinations: In a few cases, multiple closely-related Game Elements have been rolled in together in ways that affect only the naming (but not the cost or function). For example:

 

  • Radio Perception, Radio Perception/Transmission, and High Range Radio Perception are rolled into a single Radio Perception Enhanced Sense with a three-tiered price structure matching the three previous senses.
  • Safe Blind Travel (from Extra-Dimensional Movement) and Safe Blind Teleport (from Teleportation) are rolled into a single Safe Blind Travel Adder applicable to either Power.
  • Half Range Modifier and No Range Modifier are rolled into a single Reduced Range Modifier Advantage.

 

The Absolute Effect Rule has been removed as a defined concept. Of course (in keeping with the Core Concepts of You Can Change Anything and You Get What You Pay For; CC pages 6-7) individual GMs can choose to allow absolute effects at whatever CP costs they think are appropriate. So if a character's GM thinks an existing build that used the Absolute Effect Rule had an appropriate cost and function, there's no need to change it.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Classes of Minds has been removed as a concept for Mental Powers (and associated Advantages and Limitations have likewise been removed). Mental Powers work on all characters by default (except as explicitly stated otherwise in the rules); if a character wants a Mental Power to not work vs. (or only work vs.) some subset of characters, he takes an appropriately-valued Limited Power Limitation. So 6E characters can either free themselves of defining a single Class of Minds their Mental Powers work against, or (if it's important to their character concept that their Mental Powers only work against certain types of characters) they can save some CP by applying a Limitation. Characters with the Multiple Classes Adder can also remove that for some CP savings, while characters who had the Limited Class of Minds Limitation can convert it to a Limited Power Limitation of the same value or more.

 

I note you say work on all characters by default. What about things that are not characters but that Mental Powers were very regularly used on like animals or computers/electronics?

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I note you say work on all characters by default. What about things that are not characters but that Mental Powers were very regularly used on like animals or computers/electronics?

 

The book says nothing at all about what the targets of Mental Powers can be. So anything the GM decides is a character, or decides has a DMCV, etc.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Well, I know it's done and over with, but I have to say that is the one change I think was a really terrible idea. I don't think people new to the system using CC as the core (and maybe only) book will think "oh, I guess we just modify the Mental Powers if we want to build a technomancer". It's not really self apparent, and Champions/Superheroes is the most likely genre to have such characters.

 

EDIT: To clarify, I don't even have a problem with Class of Minds being removed, but as I understand it many of the examples and explanations are being removed as well and without the CoM rules I don't think using Mental Powers on non-humans will be a natural/obvious choice for new people.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Personally I think its one of those situations where you use what you want. If you like the class of minds adder system you can still use it. If you don't (or don't know about it because you ONLY have CC) then you use a limitation system to reflect that you can only affect certain types of minds. IMO the new system is slightly more balanced since being a technomancer is now actually cheaper than being a psychic (and I always felt it should be due to the difference in number of minds you can affect with your powers.) Granted, psychics are all technomancers by default right now (at least as far as pure mental powers are concerned) but that is a minor consideration (and again can be remedied by the GM if necessary).

 

Not to mention that many "expansion" products make reference to Class of Minds so if you buy any of those you will be introduced to the concept (and the extra options it presents.)

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

DH, again I have no issue with the change itself. My concern is the change it causes to the function of those Powers not being addressed. Saying it's up to the GM is all well and good until a new group comes along from a system with spell/power lists and doesn't even conceive of the idea that those powers can be used in other ways.

Thanks for responding, I'm not looking to bash the product (in fact I think it has potential to do better than the current Core books). I'm just trying to better articulate my concern.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

And hopefully they will come here so we can educate them on matters such as that. The new book definitely leads to more questions which may result in more new players coming here for answers. (there are fewer explanations, examples, and details provided. 6e at times seemed to go almost TOO FAR in trying to cover corner cases, which if these forums are any example is honestly an exercise in futility from the start :) )

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Hi, my group is wanting to start a Superhero campaign, but we don't know what system to play with.

 

I've just got a few questions about Champions, sorry if these have been answered earlier in the thread, I didn't want to slog through 38 pages of forum.

 

From what I read in the first 10 pages of this chat, it says 4 books (one of which I have found out is 400 odd pages) down into 240. How did it fit that much in there? Is it in really tiny font? Did it completely skip the description of powers from Volume 1?

 

What lends Champions to be a better supers game than other systems? What does it have over, say, M&M or Heroes Unlimited?

 

Thank you for your time.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Hi, my group is wanting to start a Superhero campaign, but we don't know what system to play with.

 

I've just got a few questions about Champions, sorry if these have been answered earlier in the thread, I didn't want to slog through 38 pages of forum.

 

From what I read in the first 10 pages of this chat, it says 4 books (one of which I have found out is 400 odd pages) down into 240. How did it fit that much in there? Is it in really tiny font? Did it completely skip the description of powers from Volume 1?

 

What lends Champions to be a better supers game than other systems? What does it have over, say, M&M or Heroes Unlimited?

 

Thank you for your time.

 

Power creation that allows you to systematically simulate almost anything. A combat system that you can really get into. You can build the character you want instead of picking cookie cutters. The system can be used for multiple genres without any changes.

 

M&M really is a great system if you come to it from playing D&D. It simplifies many elements of the D20 system to make it a quicker, better oiled machine. But let me be the first to tell you that it cribs its Power Creation system straight from Champions and I say accept no substitutions. Furthermore, M&M is geared towards building and simulating Superheroes only; Champions only begins with Superheroes.

 

Heroes Unlimited presents Superheroes in highly cookie cutter ways. It lacks consistency and isn't particularly balanced well.

 

 

Champions, as you may have heard, does involve math, but ask yourself if the following would strain your brain:

 

Power Creation:

Base Points x (1 + Sum of Advantages) = Active Points

Active Points / (1 + Sum of Limitations) = Real Points

 

That is all the math in Power Creation and it's only done when creating your character or buying new things. The following is as complex as combat calculation ever gets:

 

Attack Roll: (Offensive Combat Value + 11) - 3d6 = Defensive Combat Value hit

 

If you can handle that and Power Creation, then that is the toughest math ever gets in Champions.

 

Then there is the combat system, which is intricate, thorough, and highly flexible once you catch onto its internal logic of allocation. Blocking, Dodging, Grabbing, Throwing, etc. Champions does it all and it isn't so confusing that you don't bother, this creating more dynamic, more exciting combat.

 

So again: power creation, combat, internal logic and consistency, flexibility, and adaptability. Champions should be the first name in superhero (and multigenre) gaming if you like your gaming crunchy. If you're more of a Marvel Super Heroes guy, then Champions operates from the opposite side of that rules spectrum. So if you like hard coded, crunchy rules systems, then go with Champions.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

. . .From what I read in the first 10 pages of this chat' date=' it says 4 books (one of which I have found out is 400 odd pages) down into 240. How did it fit that much in there? Is it in really tiny font? Did it completely skip the description of powers from Volume 1?. . .[/quote']

When originally written Champions was less than 100 pages in length. Now obviously there have been additional powers, skills, and combat maneuvers added since then but not 900+ pages worth.

 

That isn't to imply that 6e is bloated. It is simply that within those 4 volumes there's a lot more depth than is absolutely required for learning the game (expanded descriptions of powers, explanation of edge cases, campaign suggestions for non-Champions campaigns, detailed suggestions for Champions campaigns, detailed world information for the Champion's universe, etc.).

 

To put it in terms of D&D, since nearly everyone is familiar with it, those four books represent your Player's Handbook, Player's Handbook II, DM's Guide, DM's Guide II, Monster Manual, Monster Manual II and Forgotten Realms. That's really much more than what you need to get into the game. CC is more like a concise version of the Player's Handbook and DM's Guide, as I understand it.

 

(N.B.: This is far from a perfect analogy. D&D's rigid structure means that without the PHB II you won't have all of the character classes and races to choose from which does not occur in the case of going from 6e to CC. The four books also don't really include a 'Monster Manual' among them, but while that's viewed as an essential part of a D&D game it is really an optional part that isn't that hard to do without).

 

I've actually thought for a while that a reworking of the books into something more concise was a good idea, not because the current rules are bloated but simply because they provided more data than was necessary and all that extra data, while useful, presented both a monetary barrier (buying all 4 books was very expensive) and a psychological barrier (wow, that's a lot of pages) to someone trying to enter the game.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

So for example, in CC, the Linked advantage is about one column long. Four short paragraphs, and a table with some example linked situations; basically half of a page of explanation. Even in 5er, Linked was four pages long, which is pretty ridiculous.

 

The other thing that's been cut is a lot of illustrations: the layout feels like the Basic Rulebook. So it's a little plain, but the text size is fine and so far I don't actually see anything missing. It's also two column text with no sidebars, so it's physically dense copy.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I've just got a few questions about Champions, sorry if these have been answered earlier in the thread, I didn't want to slog through 38 pages of forum.

 

From what I read in the first 10 pages of this chat, it says 4 books (one of which I have found out is 400 odd pages) down into 240. How did it fit that much in there? Is it in really tiny font? Did it completely skip the description of powers from Volume 1?

What are the 4 books you speak of? The bulk of CC is from "Hero System 6E Volume 1: Character Creation" (466pg) and "Hero System 6E Volume 2: Combat and Adventuring" (322pg) - prior to CC these were the only two books you really need, everything else is an exploration of genre and examples.

 

Third book might be the genre book: "Champions 6E" (304pg). But honestly there isn't that much of that book in CC there is only 20 pages of exploration of genre, templates, and other Champions focused stuff in the book. There is nothing of "Champions Universe" the dedicated setting book.

 

Maybe the 4th book was "Hero System 6E Basic" book at 138 pages. But that was a simplified (less explanation and examples) version of volume 1 and 2 with some things missing.... CC feels like the complete version of basic.

 

CC is a condensed version of V1&2 that has all the rules but less of the explanation and examples (plus some reorganization like putting all the power modifiers not specific to a power in one place).

 

What lends Champions to be a better supers game than other systems?

I've been playing champions since 81 (maybe 82) and its way of doing thing has influenced my expectations of games in general.

 

Most superhero games (actually most rpgs) have "description based" powers. Powers are things like Gravity Control, Fire Powers, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, etc. Each power is a rule in itself and not very modular. In all games there really are a limited number of effects you can do - damage someone, apply some modifiers to some roll, stun, KO, move, etc.

 

Instead of burying these discrete effects in complex powers; Hero System breaks out each effect you can achieve in the system into discrete effects and modifiers to those effects. You then build up a power out of these effects. So a lightning bolt is an Energy Blast (or Ranged Killing Attack) that looks like lightning and could have some secondary effects like jumpstarting a car at the GMs digression. A fireball is just an Energy Blast (or Ranged Killing) that looks like fire but has a modifier to make it area effect.

 

So in essence Hero breaks things down into an "effect based" system with "special effects" that flesh out the description.

 

I have a strong preference for "effects based" system because they expose the inner workings of the game to the GM and Players and allows them to build whatever they want. Other games often make you buy a supplement or make something up that may not be balanced at all to extend the system.

 

This toolkit approach makes Hero System/Champions easy to apply to just about any genre.

 

What does it have over' date=' say, M&M or Heroes Unlimited?[/quote']

Mutants and Masterminds 2E+Ultimate Power and M&M3E are an "effects based" system and in that respect a close sibling to Hero. M&M has roots in the d20 system (so is familiar to those that play d20) and is slightly less crunchy. I prefer M&M over Hero for superhero games for many reasons (much less to track, faster, fits how I see comic tropes more, easier to do power stunts) but I also find there are some things that are harder to model and easier to abuse in M&M (loved arrays at first but have found that an entirely new power for 1 point is open to some serious abuse). M&M I also find doesn't adapt as well to grittier games with rules as written... it is much more focused on comic simulation (gritty damage is hard for example and the excellent PL balancing factor breaks down a bit at really low PL).

 

All that said I really like Hero for fantasy games and gritty games over M&M (which is why I'd prefer if the core book was Hero System instead of Champions Complete). Unless I want to be able to run on the fly... despite using hero for a long long time, I can run M&M on the fly easier than just about any game (hits a sweet spot in crunch and ease of use for me... simpler systems often fall flat for me).

 

Heroes Unlimited is definitely a description based game and is saddled with (IMHO) an awful idiosyncratic system with a ton of subsystems (I've never been a fan of Palladium).... plus random generation is the norm where build what you want is what I often prefer (although a good random generator is great for stimulating ideas).

 

There are a bunch of other options out there for supers from this thread the top recommendations and their comparison to Hero are:

  • Champions - the game in question
  • M&M - Already lightly compared above.
  • Marvel Heroic Roleplaying - Excellent genre emulation from what I understand but not a traditional system with precise measurements - more new agey mechanics (powers are pretty loosely defined). You might think it as rules lite but the dice mechanics are very fiddly so I don't. There is no real character creation system as it is focused on picking up and playing existing characters they provide writeups for (there are some very light guidelines I don't see as a system).
  • FASERIP - The old marvel system. Definitely description based focused on random character generation. You use a table to figure your chances of success. I'm not fond of the game because the random generation can leave you with unusable characters - like one I was saddled with who's mightiest power could maybe be as strong as a normal person's punch working with people who could destroy mountains.
  • BASH - A somewhat effects based system. I'm pretty fond of the character creation mechanics but don't like the default dice rolling system (which multiplies dice roll by your ability) but there are optional rolling systems. It is a lighter system than M&M but offers similar options as it and Hero (less granularity certainly).
  • ICONS - FATE inspired, random character generation, and players are the only people who roll dice (I don't like those sorts of games as I like rolling dice and often have to run). M
  • V&V - Quirky old school game with many different mechanics and random generation. Like it more than Heroes Unlimited but that doesn't say much.
  • Marvel SAGA - Semi-random generation, description based powers, card based mechanics, players are the only ones who play cards.
  • DC Heroes - Description based powers, point buy like hero, power of two scale like M&M3E, with a table lookup needed for action resolution. I liked much of DC Heroes but would have liked an effects based system and a few things worked out (like the base points given making it hard to make someone as mighty as robin).
  • Supers! - Very rules light system with very abstract powers (use a power for whatever you want as long as it makes sense based on what you called/described it as... but only twice per turn). Doesn't sound like my thing.

 

There are many more. For me it comes down to Hero or M&M.

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Just put in my $40 (plus s&h) to get my copy. I've had the 6e Basic Rulebook for a while now and had meant to step up to the full ruleset at some point. This makes it much easier by having it in one volume again and at an affordable price (and since the preorder included the PDF at no extra charge, I had to put my money where my mouth is in supporting that kind of thing!).

 

Of course, it'll take a good while to plow through the material, but a glance-through shows a satisfying product so far. No, you won't get the presentation values of competitors like M&M/DCA or MHR, and it's definitely light on illustration work. However, they layout is definitely readable, even on my Galaxy S when using column view on EZPDF Reader. File size is even lighter than with the Basic Rulebook.

 

So far, I'm liking what I'm seeing!

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Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Picked this up in PDF from the Hero Store last night. On first impressions I can definitely say that this looks very nice indeed! Takes me back to the earliest editions in some ways. Job well done Sir and an excellent addition to the Hero library! Hope it sells bucket loads! :)

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