[New Product] Champions Complete

[Orion]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Thank goodness. I always hated that rule.

 

Bah...I've thought it a great idea from the moment I heard of it. :-) But then, by definition certain mental powers like telepathy and mind control cannot work on computers and robots in my games, so the concept has always been there.

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

The horse has probably already left the barn' date=' but I have to second this. I think softcover with color interior art would be the way to go. A book with black and white art just does not appear as polished as the competition, especially when dealing with the superhero genre which cries out for dynamic color artwork.[/quote']

 

It's all about the Benjamins. Colour artwork costs money. It increases the cost-per-unit which reduces the profit-per-unit. Given that the industry isn't in the best shape right now, colour might not be a good idea.

[Orion]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

If you don't mins me asking' date=' why the name change to Naked Advantage?[/quote']

 

Naked Advantage is for when Captain Kirk loses his shirt and gains fighting skills, or when smaller bikinis mean the heroines are more bullet-proof.

 

Independent Advantage is a metagamey, character design thingy.

[esampson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Does that mean Naked Advantage is the exact opposite of Overall Levels?

[JamesG]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

It's all about the Benjamins. Colour artwork costs money. It increases the cost-per-unit which reduces the profit-per-unit. Given that the industry isn't in the best shape right now' date=' colour might not be a good idea.[/quote']

 

Depends on if color would sell enough additional units to make up for the lower profit per unit. It could go either way, I really have no way of knowing. I do think that a new gamer looking for a super hero game to buy would be more likely to purchase Mutants and Masterminds with its color artwork than Champions Complete with B&W artwork.

 

Then again the "new gamer" market might not be large. If the the company figures most buyers for Champions Complete are the Hero diehards who would buy it B&W or color then yeah, color does not make a lot of sense.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Depends on if color would sell enough additional units to make up for the lower profit per unit. It could go either way, I really have no way of knowing. I do think that a new gamer looking for a super hero game to buy would be more likely to purchase Mutants and Masterminds with its color artwork than Champions Complete with B&W artwork.

 

Then again the "new gamer" market might not be large. If the the company figures most buyers for Champions Complete are the Hero diehards who would buy it B&W or color then yeah, color does not make a lot of sense.

 

I would think that part of the ideal market for any RPG is the people who have tried other RPGs in the same genre, come out seriously dissatisfied, but still want to play in that genre. That's the Pathfinder formula as far as I can tell -- grab the people who love the fantasy genre but have become disenchanted with where D&D has gone. I can easily see Champions appealing to disenchanted M&M players who want something meatier and more readily customizable.

[gojira]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Does that mean Naked Advantage is the exact opposite of Overall Levels?

 

*groan*

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I would think that part of the ideal market for any RPG is the people who have tried other RPGs in the same genre' date=' come out seriously dissatisfied, but still want to play in that genre. That's the [i']Pathfinder[/i] formula as far as I can tell -- grab the people who love the fantasy genre but have become disenchanted with where D&D has gone. I can easily see Champions appealing to disenchanted M&M players who want something meatier and more readily customizable.

 

There's also the possibility that James briefly touched on: Champions could sell fewer copies than M&M, but still make a larger profit due to lower production costs. Large profits are good.

 

 

To Derek and Jason: If Hero Basic is going to be PDF only, have you guys thought about a "Champions Basic" to fill that niche? I've had roleplaying neophytes tell me that the BBB was too big. A smaller version of Champions Complete wouldn't be a bad idea. It'd go a long way towards eliminating any lingering doubts about Hero's simplicity.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

To Derek and Jason: If Hero Basic is going to be PDF only' date=' have you guys thought about a "Champions Basic" to fill that niche? I've had roleplaying neophytes tell me that the BBB was too big. A smaller version of Champions Complete wouldn't be a bad idea. It'd go a long way towards eliminating any lingering doubts about Hero's simplicity.[/quote']

 

Speaking only for myself, I think Champions Complete is short enough. It's already going to be over 100 pages shorter than the BBB was. It's actually closer in length to Hero System Basic than it is the 4E BBB.

 

And while I certainly don't think Champions is complicated (no more than most RPGs), and I think it has an undeserved reputation for complexity (partially due to a gradual buildup of detail and digression that Champions Complete largely removes), let's also be honest... it's not a "simple" RPG either. I don't personally think there's any value in pretending it is, because players who truly want that experience probably wouldn't like Champions's approach anyway. If they were drawn in with a product that deliberately made the game seem simpler than it is, then later discovered the truth, I'd worry they might feel baited-and-switched.

 

I think the best approach is presenting it as clearly and cleanly as reasonably possible (making it seem no more complex than it actually is), but without trying to make it seem falsely simple either.

 

In my (obviously biased) opinion, Champions Complete does that, though of course the proof will be in the pudding, as they say. Of course, if there's still a perceived need for a "gateway" book other than Champions Complete, I'm sure Hero Games will consider how to best address that.

[RexMundi]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Good consistent black and white art in a game book meant to be used will out do inconsistent "Bright Shiny and Moving" any day of the week. Proven workhorse.

 

~Rex

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Speaking only for myself' date=' I think [i']Champions Complete[/i] is short enough. It's already going to be over 100 pages shorter than the BBB was. It's actually closer in length to Hero System Basic than it is the 4E BBB.

 

And while I certainly don't think Champions is complicated (no more than most RPGs), and I think it has an undeserved reputation for complexity (partially due to a gradual buildup of detail and digression that Champions Complete largely removes), let's also be honest... it's not a "simple" RPG either. I don't personally think there's any value in pretending it is, because players who truly want that experience probably wouldn't like Champions's approach anyway. If they were drawn in with a product that deliberately made the game seem simpler than it is, then later discovered the truth, I'd worry they might feel baited-and-switched.

 

I think the best approach is presenting it as clearly and cleanly as reasonably possible (making it seem no more complex than it actually is), but without trying to make it seem falsely simple either.

 

In my (obviously biased) opinion, Champions Complete does that, though of course the proof will be in the pudding, as they say. Of course, if there's still a perceived need for a "gateway" book other than Champions Complete, I'm sure Hero Games will consider how to best address that.

 

:nods: In 100% agreement. Champions/Hero is far from "rules lite" or simple, but it's not the math fest ("calculus and log charts") that it's made out to be. That's what I meant by "simple." (Seriously, I flunked grade 12 math, never learned calculus, and have no recollection of what a "log chart" is.) Personally, I tend to think of Hero as "rules medium" instead of "lite" or "heavy". At least until you throw in the optional rules and toolkitting stuff.

 

Next question: Is there going to be some version of the Superhero Gallery in Complete? This isn't a deal breaker for me (I'm already sold, the money is just a formality at this point), but it is the only reason I bought the Champions Genre book.

 

Also will you include rules (optional or otherwise) for HAPs in the book?

[esampson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

While it's not as complicated as something like the old BTRC's Time Lords systems Champions is plenty complex, especially in the character creation. That's both good and bad. Good because you can really make fantastically well thought out characters but bad because for someone jumping in it can be really off putting.

 

Forget that I have to understand this concept of base points to active points to real cost. If I'm going to make an energy projector I have to flip through pages of powers trying to spot the ones I want, then flip through all the advantages doing the same thing an finally flip through all the limitations, repeating the process for the third time. The whole time I'm doing this a lot of the information that I might want (blast, flight, resistant defenses.) are buried among things I more than likely have no interest in (stretching, leaping, swimming, etc.).

 

Most game systems with any moderate degree of complexity include template characters now. I'm not referring to the balanced starter characters that appear in the book such as Eagle-Eye and Hardpoint but characters who are given more generic names (Dark Detective, Powered Armor) who are more or less complete although there is still some room for new players to personalize by deciding what Professional Skills, Hunteds, Susceptibilities, etc. that they want.

 

I would also personally vote for chucking out the optional rules (hit locations, bleeding, impairment, etc.) and recommend putting them in a separate book. They're great rules, don't get me wrong. They just add greater complexity to the game and if everyone at the table is playing Champions for the first time you need to reduce that complexity. Where they currently sit many newbie gamemasters might decide to throw them in and try running before they've even learned to walk.

 

Barring removal I would recommend putting them in a separate section of the rules such as an advanced section that starts out "With a few games under your belt maybe you feel like experimenting with the world, making it darker and grittier. Here's rules that might interest you" or something.

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Most game systems with any moderate degree of complexity include template characters now. I'm not referring to the balanced starter characters that appear in the book such as Eagle-Eye and Hardpoint but characters who are given more generic names (Dark Detective' date=' Powered Armor) who are more or less complete although there is still some room for new players to personalize by deciding what Professional Skills, Hunteds, Susceptibilities, etc. that they want.[/quote']

 

Hero has that stuff in the Champions Genre book. It's called the Superhero Gallery.

[esampson]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Yes and no. The Superhero Gallery does help out someone who needs to make a character quickly but it still requires quite a few decisions on the part of a newbie (I'm counting around 11 for the Blaster). Even worse some of those decisions include advantages and limitations or powers I probably would not recommend for a completely new player (indirect, force field + deflection). I'm thinking of something much more basic than that.

 

As an example here's a character template from Eclipse Phase:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44052[/ATTACH]

Now in this case they don't really leave any room for customization. I would think a few of the skills, especially Knowledge Skills and Professional Skills, could be left generic so the character can chose whatever they want. Likewise if the character is built with a Hunted it is simply "Hunted: More Powerful, NCI, Infrequently". The player can then chose a group to fit in there and come up with their own story why they are being hunted. The end result though is a sheet which can be pretty much photocopied and played right away by someone with almost no knowledge of the game (with some help from the GM).

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Yes and no. The Superhero Gallery does help out someone who needs to make a character quickly but it still requires quite a few decisions on the part of a newbie (I'm counting around 11 for the Blaster). Even worse some of those decisions include advantages and limitations or powers I probably would not recommend for a completely new player (indirect, force field + deflection). I'm thinking of something much more basic than that.

 

As an example here's a character template from Eclipse Phase:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]44052[/ATTACH]

Now in this case they don't really leave any room for customization. I would think a few of the skills, especially Knowledge Skills and Professional Skills, could be left generic so the character can chose whatever they want. Likewise if the character is built with a Hunted it is simply "Hunted: More Powerful, NCI, Infrequently". The player can then chose a group to fit in there and come up with their own story why they are being hunted. The end result though is a sheet which can be pretty much photocopied and played right away by someone with almost no knowledge of the game (with some help from the GM).

 

I see your point. Personally, I prefer the gallery, but then I'm not really the audience for it.

[steriaca]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Question: Is there a unified Feedback limitation, or do each power where Feedback is posable have, for example, "Telepathic Feedback" or "Barrier Feedback"?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Next question: Is there going to be some version of the Superhero Gallery in Complete? This isn't a deal breaker for me (I'm already sold' date=' the money is just a formality at this point), but it is the only reason I bought the Champions Genre book.[/quote']

 

Similar in concept, but different in execution. The Superhero Gallery is a useful quick character-generator, but its sheer length precludes putting it in Champions Complete. The new book approaches it by discussing "sets" of abilities commonly taken together for various Special Effects, backgrounds, or concepts. The character archetypes then refer to these "sets" when talking about typical characters of that archetype. So it's less of a literal plug-and-play character builder, and more of a freeform guideline to help players associate game mechanics with character concepts.

 

For example, one of the sub-types of the Brick character archetype is:

 

AQUATIC

 

In campaigns featuring sunken civilizations, natives may develop Super-Strength due to bodies evolved to withstand enormous pressures, and these dense bodies are at least Tough as well (usually Bulletproof). The classic Aquatic Brick is obviously Aquatic, and often Telepathic as well (though usually only with sea creatures).

 

Many Aquatic Bricks are Leaders in the undersea world, and also have the appropriate Perks. They're Undersea Dwellers, and may be considered Aliens.

 

Earlier in the book, the capitalized terms above are discussed as "sets" of abilities. For instance, Tough and Bulletproof are Defensive Sets:

 

Tough:

More resilient than a normal person, and resistant to normal weapons but not completely immune (PD and ED from 10-19, with about half of that Resistant).

Bulletproof:

Usually immune to the BODY damage of most normal weapons. Attackers typically need heavier weapons or superpowers to hurt the character significantly (PD and ED from 20-29, with half to three-quarters of that Resistant).

 

Aquatic is a Miscellaneous Powers set, and Super-Strength and Telepathic are an Attack Sets:

 

Aquatic:

Allows a character to thrive underwater (Environmental Movement [underwater], Life Support [breathe Underwater, Intense Cold, High Pressure], enhanced Swimming).

Telepathic:

Permits mind-to-mind contact, communication, manipulation, and/or control (Mind Link, Mind Scan, Telepathy; possibly also Mind Control and/or Mental Illusions).

Super-Strength:

Able to exert incredible amounts of strength (High STR [at least 40]).

 

Leader is a Skill Set, and Undersea Dweller and Alien are Complications Sets:

 

Leader:

Able to inspire and coordinate others (Persuasion, Oratory, Tactics, Teamwork).

Alien:

The character isn't from Earth (Physical Complication: Unfamiliar With Earth Culture; Social Complication: Alien [may lack legal status, suffer from discrimination, and so on]).

Undersea Dweller:

The character's a native of an underwater civilization (Dependence on periodic immersion in sea water; Physical Complication: Unusually Heavy [dense body]; Psychological Complication: Distrusts Surface-Dwellers).

 

So it's not a full-blown character template exactly, but if you took all the abilities it mentions, you'd be well on your way to building a character who feels like a classic Aquatic Brick.

 

Also will you include rules (optional or otherwise) for HAPs in the book?

 

Yes, they're in there. And really, nothing is specifically flagged as "optional." Items are flagged with the Caution Sign and Stop Sign icons (as they have been since 4E), and Champions Complete introduces two icons as well: Superheroic and Heroic. These quickly highlight mechanics more appropriate for one or the other style of campaign.

 

So in a sense, GMs running a Superheroic campaign might consider anything with a Heroic icon to be "optional" or not specifically aimed at their game, but the book doesn't literally call anything an "optional rule." (Well, except for Optional Combat Maneuvers, which are still called that.)

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Similar in concept' date=' but different in execution. The Superhero Gallery is a useful quick character-generator, but its sheer length precludes putting it in [i']Champions Complete.[/i] The new book approaches it by discussing "sets" of abilities commonly taken together for various Special Effects, backgrounds, or concepts. The character archetypes then refer to these "sets" when talking about typical characters of that archetype. So it's less of a literal plug-and-play character builder, and more of a freeform guideline to help players associate game mechanics with character concepts.

 

For example, one of the sub-types of the Brick character archetype is:

 

AQUATIC

 

In campaigns featuring sunken civilizations, natives may develop Super-Strength due to bodies evolved to withstand enormous pressures, and these dense bodies are at least Tough as well (usually Bulletproof). The classic Aquatic Brick is obviously Aquatic, and often Telepathic as well (though usually only with sea creatures).

 

Many Aquatic Bricks are Leaders in the undersea world, and also have the appropriate Perks. They're Undersea Dwellers, and may be considered Aliens.

 

Earlier in the book, the capitalized terms above are discussed as "sets" of abilities. For instance, Tough and Bulletproof are Defensive Sets:

 

Tough:

More resilient than a normal person, and resistant to normal weapons but not completely immune (PD and ED from 10-19, with about half of that Resistant).

Bulletproof:

Usually immune to the BODY damage of most normal weapons. Attackers typically need heavier weapons or superpowers to hurt the character significantly (PD and ED from 20-29, with half to three-quarters of that Resistant).

 

Aquatic is a Miscellaneous Powers set, and Super-Strength and Telepathic are an Attack Sets:

 

Aquatic:

Allows a character to thrive underwater (Environmental Movement [underwater], Life Support [breathe Underwater, Intense Cold, High Pressure], enhanced Swimming).

Telepathic:

Permits mind-to-mind contact, communication, manipulation, and/or control (Mind Link, Mind Scan, Telepathy; possibly also Mind Control and/or Mental Illusions).

Super-Strength:

Able to exert incredible amounts of strength (High STR [at least 40]).

 

Leader is a Skill Set, and Undersea Dweller and Alien are Complications Sets:

 

Leader:

Able to inspire and coordinate others (Persuasion, Oratory, Tactics, Teamwork).

Alien:

The character isn't from Earth (Physical Complication: Unfamiliar With Earth Culture; Social Complication: Alien [may lack legal status, suffer from discrimination, and so on]).

Undersea Dweller:

The character's a native of an underwater civilization (Dependence on periodic immersion in sea water; Physical Complication: Unusually Heavy [dense body]; Psychological Complication: Distrusts Surface-Dwellers).

 

So it's not a full-blown character template exactly, but if you took all the abilities it mentions, you'd be well on your way to building a character who feels like a classic Aquatic Brick.

 

 

 

Yes, they're in there. And really, nothing is specifically flagged as "optional." Items are flagged with the Caution Sign and Stop Sign icons (as they have been since 4E), and Champions Complete introduces two icons as well: Superheroic and Heroic. These quickly highlight mechanics more appropriate for one or the other style of campaign.

 

So in a sense, GMs running a Superheroic campaign might consider anything with a Heroic icon to be "optional" or not specifically aimed at their game, but the book doesn't literally call anything an "optional rule." (Well, except for Optional Combat Maneuvers, which are still called that.)

 

Thanks muchly.

[Lucius]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I would also personally vote for chucking out the optional rules (hit locations' date=' bleeding, impairment, etc.) and recommend putting them in a separate book. They're great rules, don't get me wrong. They just add greater complexity to the game and if everyone at the table is playing Champions for the first time you need to reduce that complexity.[/quote']

 

If there were plans to eventually reprint Volumes 1 & 2 of the 6th Edition Core Rules, this might be a good idea.

 

Unfortunately, it has been announced that this product is REPLACING the Character Creation, Combat and Adventuring, and Basic rulebooks, so this is a very, very BAD idea.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that it's moot in any case, as the decisions seem to have been made.

[Steve]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I wonder if collections of templates could be done as Hero Plus PDFs? I know that M&M sells template splatbooks for archetypes. You could call it something like "Ultimate Archetype" maybe, boiling down character creation for beginning players and harried GMs. Heck, it would work for Fantasy Hero too.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Most game systems with any moderate degree of complexity include template characters now. I'm not referring to the balanced starter characters that appear in the book such as Eagle-Eye and Hardpoint but characters who are given more generic names (Dark Detective' date=' Powered Armor) who are more or less complete although there is still some room for new players to personalize by deciding what Professional Skills, Hunteds, Susceptibilities, etc. that they want.[/quote']

 

While there are none of these as such in Champions Complete, the example characters slated to appear in the book (assuming there's room for all of them after layout and such) match up to the ten character archetypes. So while there aren't things specifically designed to be 80% of a complete character, there are a fair number of examples to follow.

 

There will also be some additional material that either there isn't room for in the book, or that seems like it would work just as well (or better) as a download, that will be added to the Free Stuff section when the book is released.

 

I would also personally vote for chucking out the optional rules (hit locations, bleeding, impairment, etc.) and recommend putting them in a separate book. They're great rules, don't get me wrong. They just add greater complexity to the game and if everyone at the table is playing Champions for the first time you need to reduce that complexity. Where they currently sit many newbie gamemasters might decide to throw them in and try running before they've even learned to walk.

 

Barring removal I would recommend putting them in a separate section of the rules such as an advanced section that starts out "With a few games under your belt maybe you feel like experimenting with the world, making it darker and grittier. Here's rules that might interest you" or something.

 

Since this will be the core rulebook, removing them isn't really an option, and I don't think it's necessary anyway. They're clearly flagged as Heroic rules, and can easily be skipped.

[assault]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I was going to make the Naked Advantages/Overall Skill Levels joke, but was beaten to it. Of course it dates back decades anyway...

 

To be perfectly honest, designing characters becomes very simple if you use the 3(4) powers rule: Offensive Power, Defensive Power, Movement Power and (optional) Miscellaneous Power.

 

The resulting characters aren't as flexible as the last couple of editions have tried to encourage, but they're playable, and good enough to get people started. Skill sets are probably harder.

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I was going to make the Naked Advantages/Overall Skill Levels joke, but was beaten to it. Of course it dates back decades anyway...

 

To be perfectly honest, designing characters becomes very simple if you use the 3(4) powers rule: Offensive Power, Defensive Power, Movement Power and (optional) Miscellaneous Power.

 

The resulting characters aren't as flexible as the last couple of editions have tried to encourage, but they're playable, and good enough to get people started. Skill sets are probably harder.

 

QFT. For me, the hardest part of creating a Champs character is picking the right skills. However, it's more of a personal mental block than anything with the system.

[Andrew_A]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

I wonder if collections of templates could be done as Hero Plus PDFs? I know that M&M sells template splatbooks for archetypes. You could call it something like "Ultimate Archetype" maybe' date=' boiling down character creation for beginning players and harried GMs. Heck, it would work for Fantasy Hero too.[/quote']

 

Seconded. I'd buy this.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: [New Product] Champions Complete

 

Question: Is there a unified Feedback limitation' date=' or do each power where Feedback is posable have, for example, "Telepathic Feedback" or "Barrier Feedback"?[/quote']

 

Feedback is one of the few Limitations (possibly the only one) where multiple "versions" of it with the same name were left on the individual Powers. In other words, there's a Feedback Limitation on Barrier, Duplication, Mind Link, Reflection, and Telepathy, because it worked just enough differently on each one to make it a bit of a PITB to try and combine it into a single "Feedback" Power Modifier.