NBC Revolution

[Ternaugh]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Wouldn't diesel engines still work if you use some kind chemical charge to take the place of the glow plugs? I have seen generators that used a shotgun type shell to start.

 

Yes, some diesel engines should still function, so long as they don't have all those newfangled computer controls (So a Volkswagen TDI won't, but an older diesel truck might). I doubt that the writers will think that far, just as I doubt that they'll show any steam trains.

 

JoeG

 

Edit: I mentioned this to the housemate, who is retired Army, and worked for a time in the motor pool during the Vietnam War era. What he said:

 

You push them. Or you roll them down the hill. The older army diesel engines don't require any electricity, and glow plugs are only needed if you are starting them cold. To stop them, you have to strangle the fuel supply (with a fuel cutoff), or they'll keep on running as the fuel pump's mechanical. It's important to use the fuel cutoff when parking the older military trucks, as they will start if they have fuel flow and roll down a hill.

[tkdguy]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

I guess there's also a reason no automobiles or modern firearms work as well. After all, wouldn't gun makers nowadays know more about producing contemporary firearms than flintlocks?

[Shadow Hawk]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Black powder's not diffucult to make. Smoothbore muskets aren't hard either. Lead shot isn't hard. You won't be able to mass produce them, but take your gunsmith, assign him a bunch of helpers and apprentices... (once the chaos settles down enough that you can worry about such things, that is.)

 

Rifled muskets and Minie ball are both harder, but might be worth it due to improved accuracy.

 

Given the 15 year thing, I'd think that there would be communities making smoothbores and/or rifled muskets, black powder, and ammo.

[sinanju]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Black powder's not diffucult to make. Smoothbore muskets aren't hard either. Lead shot isn't hard. You won't be able to mass produce them, but take your gunsmith, assign him a bunch of helpers and apprentices... (once the chaos settles down enough that you can worry about such things, that is.)

 

Rifled muskets and Minie ball are both harder, but might be worth it due to improved accuracy.

 

Given the 15 year thing, I'd think that there would be communities making smoothbores and/or rifled muskets, black powder, and ammo.

 

My understanding is that *smokeless powder* (i.e., modern gunpowder) is the sticking point. It's not easy to produce, and requires considerable tech to do it well and in quantity. If you try to use black powder (or even something a bit more sophisticated but not modern), you get a lot of fouling, which makes it nigh impossible to get semi-autos to function well. But even so, I think you'd see people resorting to modern-style revolvers (which could function with black powder, even if they required a LOT of cleaning afterward) instead of muskets and smoothbores. (A modern reloading set-up could be made to work with black powder quite easily, I think. You'd eventually have to mold your own (unjacketed, lead) bullets, but that too is fairly easy if you know what you're doing.

 

P.S. In response to another post, yes, Ariel: The Book of the Change (by Stephen Boyett) was a fascinating novel, and one of my favorites for a long time. In that world, not just electricity but all high tech stopped working (guns, motors, explosives, even complex machines*) when magic came back into the world. There's a sequel, I'm told, though I haven't read it.

 

*The author has admitted that he wrote the novel when he was very young (eighteen or thereabouts, I think), and didn't think through some of the implications of his premise. But he didn't revise the book when it was reissued because that's how the story was written.

[Brother Jim]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

This sounds like "Dies the Fire".

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

I'm sure that they're going for some mysterious suppression of electrical devices (especially after watching the extended preview with the magic pendant).

 

I'll give the show a try, but I don't have high hopes for it.

 

JoeG

 

I read a book called Solar flare and why all the electrical systems died is that with a strong enough solar flare, it fried all the unprptected eletronics and then it flipped our magentetic field which really messes up things. animals can't migrate correctly, in order to get some mototrs to work, you had to rewire everything.

[Ternaugh]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

I read a book called Solar flare and why all the electrical systems died is that with a strong enough solar flare' date=' it fried all the unprptected eletronics and then it flipped our magentetic field which really messes up things. animals can't migrate correctly, in order to get some mototrs to work, you had to rewire everything.[/quote']

 

A massive solar flare would create a whole host of problems, not the least of which would be fried technology. See Larry Niven's "Inconstant Moon" for a fictional take.

 

Motors are essentially a magnetic rotor and a coil of wire, with power fed in to spin the rotor. Generators are basically motors run in reverse, with mechanical energy fed in to induce a current. Changing the magnetic field of the earth wouldn't have much effect on either.

 

JoeG

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

A massive solar flare would create a whole host of problems, not the least of which would be fried technology. See Larry Niven's "Inconstant Moon" for a fictional take.

 

Motors are essentially a magnetic rotor and a coil of wire, with power fed in to spin the rotor. Generators are basically motors run in reverse, with mechanical energy fed in to induce a current. Changing the magnetic field of the earth wouldn't have much effect on either.

 

JoeG

 

That theory sounds fine but I've seen too many science programs and heard the phrase "We didn't believe that would happen to..." to trust the flipping the electromaginetic poles not to have a derisive effect.

[Ranxerox]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

I've seen the commercials for this show and I keep getting stuck on the clothes. Everybody in the commercials is wearing clothes that look new, clean and modern. How do you manage that in a world with no washing machines, mechanical looms, or ability to transport things global distances? Really, I'm not asking that the actors run around naked. I just think that their clothes should look either hand sewn or old and patched together. Also, it would be nice if all the actors didn't look made up and perfectly coiffed. If the idea was to show a people who had been forced by circumstances to get back to nature IMHO they should look like they had gotten back to nature.

[Ternaugh]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

That theory sounds fine but I've seen too many science programs and heard the phrase "We didn't believe that would happen to..." to trust the flipping the electromaginetic poles not to have a derisive effect.

 

Flipping the poles would have a damaging effect. It would essentially reduce the magnetosphere to nearly zero during the process, resulting in more high-energy particles (radiation) hitting the surface of the earth. That would make for bad times if you had to go outside, but your electric motors would still work.

[McCoy]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Flipping the poles would have a damaging effect. It would essentially reduce the magnetosphere to nearly zero during the process' date=' resulting in more high-energy particles (radiation) hitting the surface of the earth. That would make for bad times if you had to go outside, but your electric motors would still work.[/quote']

Poles have flipped in the past, none of these changes seems to be associated with an extinction event, don't think the radiation would be that serious.

 

On the other hand, switching the poles is not going to be like flipping a switch. The field will "flicker," get weaker, get stronger, flip, flip back in a few seconds, for a time before it settles in to the new orientation. This could mean a decade or century of intermittent EMP's. If the motor's not running when a pulse hits, probably all right. If it is running, possibly end up fried.

[Ternaugh]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Poles have flipped in the past, none of these changes seems to be associated with an extinction event, don't think the radiation would be that serious.

 

On the other hand, switching the poles is not going to be like flipping a switch. The field will "flicker," get weaker, get stronger, flip, flip back in a few seconds, for a time before it settles in to the new orientation. This could mean a decade or century of intermittent EMP's. If the motor's not running when a pulse hits, probably all right. If it is running, possibly end up fried.

 

No, probably not extinction-level. Though cancer rates would go up, as would the incidence of mutations (in the non-comic book sense).

 

Solar EMP events don't generally generate the E1 or E2 effects of nuclear EMP, but do generate E3 effects, like geomagnetically induced current in long structures, including power lines, (non-fiber) communications lines, pipelines, and railroad tracks. I'd suspect that as the magnetosphere lost strength, these events would weaken as well, as it is essentially the moving magnetic field of the magnetosphere that is inducing the current in the objects.

 

I wonder, however, if local power sources (like solar or wind) that aren't hooked up to a larger grid would be as susceptible to geomagnetically induced current. I kind of doubt it.

 

JoeG

[Beast]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

a few things I have heard about pole flipping

yep the magnetosphere goes to near zero protection and it would take about 3000 yrs to burn off the ozone layer to make radiation a problem

the ozone holes at the poles are more that all the radiation from the sun is directed there by the magnetosphere

 

but the last flip was 750,000 yrs ago and we are over due by 500,000 yrs

 

 

Poles have flipped in the past, none of these changes seems to be associated with an extinction event, don't think the radiation would be that serious.

 

On the other hand, switching the poles is not going to be like flipping a switch. The field will "flicker," get weaker, get stronger, flip, flip back in a few seconds, for a time before it settles in to the new orientation. This could mean a decade or century of intermittent EMP's. If the motor's not running when a pulse hits, probably all right. If it is running, possibly end up fried.

[RexMundi]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

I'm willing to give the show a shot to start mostly because of the Hot Chick running around with a LeoPro Arbalest. Also considering that it's a J.J. Abrahms show, all wigged out violations of science will be explained with Magic and it will loop back to some mumbo jumbo that was argle barrgled at us on Lost or one of his other shows.....

 

~Rex

[dmjalund]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

you say pole flipping

I say tossing the caber

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Flipping the poles would have a damaging effect. It would essentially reduce the magnetosphere to nearly zero during the process' date=' resulting in more high-energy particles (radiation) hitting the surface of the earth. That would make for bad times if you had to go outside, but your electric motors would still work.[/quote']

 

Trying to remember though even if your motor works, wouldn't you have to switch something in there because as a default, the motor is now in reverse?

[Ternaugh]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Trying to remember though even if your motor works' date=' wouldn't you have to switch something in there because as a default, the motor is now in reverse?[/quote']

 

Does a Prius go into reverse if you make a U-turn? Does a diesel-electric train suddenly lose all power if it rounds a switchback? In these cases, the motors are rotating in relation to the Earth's magnetic field (that is, we're flipping the motor, not the Earth's magnetic field), and nothing like what you are describing happens because the magnetic fields in the motor are many times stronger than the Earth's field. Generally, if a motor is reversible, you have to reverse the electric current to reverse the motor's spin.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_motor

 

JoeG

[Brother Jim]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

I watched the pilot On-Demand last night.

I thought it was pretty good.

 

But I'm gonna have to decide by the end of the month which of the 3 shows on Monday night at 10 isn't going to get DVR'ed, but will get watched On-Demand. Which means I won't be able to fast forward thru the commercials.

[Ternaugh]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Just finished the pilot. Sadly, it's all I expected. I'm just hoping that

it's all a virtual reality simulation after the Singularity that the characters can't get out of. That would explain the wonky physics, the new clothes that don't seem to get dirty, the asthma inhaler that still works after 15 years, and the magical pendant that allows a computer to dial up another one for a chat. With any luck, that's a connection to the outside world, and we're actually looking at a Philip K. Dick story like Ubik. Otherwise, it's a cheap rip-off of "Flash Forward", a bit of "Lost", a bit of "Fringe" and a clone of the lead from "The Hunger Games"

 

 

JoeG

[RexMundi]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Yeah I have to say, horribly Underwhelmed so far and one can throw in a good chunk of David Brin's The Postman in there as well.

 

~Rex....will give it a few more episodes.

[Nolgroth]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

I was whelmed. Not over nor under, just whelmed. The militia guy was casually evil. Not impressed. The drunken uncle just dripped Hollywood stereotype. Not impressed. The female lead was.....bland. I'm not talking physicality. Her acting did not engross me. Not impressed. I was hoping for more of a post-apocalyptic feel. Instead it was 1st Level D&D module ABC-1: In Search of the Missing Uncle. There were no spells, but still. I think I played that module. At any rate, there is no sense of real desperation. Fallen Skies did that so much better that I can't even fairly compare the two. Or at least, a fair comparison would really shine the light on the weakness of Revolution.

 

Still, the action scenes were decent. It was a pilot episode so just about everything can go upwards from here. I always like conspiracy plots and well, this is true to J.J. Abrams' style. I'll give it five more episodes. I had about the same reaction to Grimm when it came out and I gave it the same due. I'm glad I did for Grimm and I hope that Revolution will prove to be just as rewarding. If not, I can at least say I gave it a try.

[tkdguy]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

I thought it was okay. It's worth tuning in for a few episodes to see how it turns out. At least they explained why not too many people have firearms. The sword fighting scene was pretty good; I hope to see some unarmed martial arts thrown into the mix as well.

[Bloodstone]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

There was nothing about it that really impressed me, but I'll give it a chance because the Wife seems interested in it.

 

Still not sure if the mystery will really work as a hook for me. Right now I'm mildly curious to find out the explaination, but so far it's just pixie dust.

[RexMundi]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Pixie dust and some serious hanging of disbelief. Still can't get over the lack of infrastructure during their airport scene. Apparently highway stuff evaporates while Wrigley Field looms eternal. Watched the pilot twice now, and got a truck full of nits to pick. I do kinda wonder how all those kids in braces got by during the lack of dentist offices and such. So far I give the show 1.2 out of 5 magic lockets of making electricity work.

 

Rex

[Major Tom 2009]

Re: NBC Revolution

 

Pixie dust and some serious hanging of disbelief. Still can't get over the lack of infrastructure during their airport scene. Apparently highway stuff evaporates while Wrigley Field looms eternal. Watched the pilot twice now, and got a truck full of nits to pick. I do kinda wonder how all those kids in braces got by during the lack of dentist offices and such. So far I give the show 1.2 out of 5 magic lockets of making electricity work.

 

 

Rex

 

 

 

The first thing that went through my mind after watching that scene was that they'd ripped off a

bit from Jericho (a secret network of folks with a [somehow] functional computer network).

 

 

Major Tom 2009

Minus 40 and counting...