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The One, True Son of Krypton

SSgt Baloo

By SSgt Baloo
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massey Veteran

massey

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

In the context of an RPG, doesn't Superman, if he exists in that campaign world, inhabiting an alternate universe anyway?

 

I'm really surprised no-one has yet suggested that it is somehow "wrong" to call a character Superman when he should rightfully be constructed with X points, Y powers, skills, talents, etc., and Z disadvantages/complications; where any deviation from this is a counterfeit unworthy of the name and should be publicly denounced as such. Is there no-one who will argue that Superman should not be exactly what you want him to be in your campaign?

 

You guys are being way too reasonable about this. :eg:

 

You should not be upset that people criticize a Superman who can be killed by taking a hairdryer into the shower, because that's not Superman. If you want to play Superman In Name Only, that's your business. I won't stop you, or even make fun of you to your face (but that's probably just because we're on the internet and I can't see your face), but really?

 

Otis: "So, fire and bullets can't hurt this guy, but this stuff here..."

Lex: "No no. Fire and bullets work just fine. That's our plan, fire and bullets."

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

You should not be upset that people criticize a Superman who can be killed by taking a hairdryer into the shower, because that's not Superman. If you want to play Superman In Name Only, that's your business. I won't stop you, or even make fun of you to your face (but that's probably just because we're on the internet and I can't see your face), but really?

 

Otis: "So, fire and bullets can't hurt this guy, but this stuff here..."

Lex: "No no. Fire and bullets work just fine. That's our plan, fire and bullets."

 

 

Obviously it can be taken too far but there is actually lots more leeway than some rigid minds seem to think is the point. I prefer TAS Superma who would be a flea to Silver age Superman but kick original golden age Superman's ass so there is lots of valid variation especially in the context of a roleplaying game. There is certainly a minimum "super" but even that has a bit of pull and tug according to the universe. Things can range from "nothing less than a bursting shell" to dipping in the sun to clean off microbes and it still be Superman.

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massey Veteran

massey

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

Obviously it can be taken too far but there is actually lots more leeway than some rigid minds seem to think is the point. I prefer TAS Superma who would be a flea to Silver age Superman but kick original golden age Superman's ass so there is lots of valid variation especially in the context of a roleplaying game. There is certainly a minimum "super" but even that has a bit of pull and tug according to the universe. Things can range from "nothing less than a bursting shell" to dipping in the sun to clean off microbes and it still be Superman.

 

I think that's what we're talking about. The minimum level of "super". If you're playing a "realistic" street level game and there's a guy with a 30 Str who can jump on top of a single story building and is mildly bullet resistant, it's not Superman no matter what his name is or what costume he wears. Now, so far, I don't think anyone has written up that character. But the idea that his concept scales all the way down to the lowest power level is false.

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massey Veteran

massey

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

Really, because Doc Savage has had the term Superman show up here and there, and seems to fit the mold.

 

~Rex ... Doc even had a Fortress of Solitude First.... :D

 

I don't think we're talking about Doc Savage, or Nietzsche, or Hugo Danner, or anybody except the dude with the spitcurl and the big S on his chest.

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SSgt Baloo Veteran

SSgt Baloo

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

It doesn't matter.

 

In a game where Superman is portrayed as he was in the 1950s, (or as he first appeared in the comics, etc.) his build, in game terms, varies with each interpretation of the role, within the limits of the technology used to portray the character. In those cases, one is restrained because of various restrictions. Movie SFX cost money, some are completely unconvincing. (Ever watch the Superman movie serials? :nonp:) In any case, each medium exacts a toll on verisimilitude. You have different "versions" of Superman that are completely different, apart from a few unifying themes and as much of his powerset as can be effectively portrayed given these limitations.

 

 

Likewise, when building Superman to fit within the confines of a campaign, the GM doesn't give a player carte blanche. Instead he says "Here are the campaign limits and here are [starting] points. Buy as much Superman as you can afford and I'll see what we can do". Or he doesn't. In that campaign, you can build Superman for however many points you think aren't nearly enough. He's a blurry portrait, but he is Superman in that setting for the same reason I have had characters with names like Bob Tiger or Argus or Thunder Rabbit or whatever. They were them in those universes. The independent existence of Superman outside that setting is a moot point. Within the limitations of the game, he is Superman, even if he isn't anywhere else in the multiverse?

 

And if you're the GM in this situation, you can just tell the player no.

 

This is Hero System. "You're doing it wrong" isn't part of the mindset. Instead it's "Here's how I do it". It's a paraphrase of someone else's tagline, but it fits.

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RexMundi Grand Master

RexMundi

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

It doesn't matter.

 

In a game where Superman is portrayed as he was in the 1950s, (or as he first appeared in the comics, etc.) his build, in game terms, varies with each interpretation of the role, within the limits of the technology used to portray the character. In those cases, one is restrained because of various restrictions. Movie SFX cost money, some are completely unconvincing. (Ever watch the Superman movie serials? :nonp:) In any case, each medium exacts a toll on verisimilitude. You have different "versions" of Superman that are completely different, apart from a few unifying themes and as much of his powerset as can be effectively portrayed given these limitations.

 

 

Likewise, when building Superman to fit within the confines of a campaign, the GM doesn't give a player carte blanche. Instead he says "Here are the campaign limits and here are [starting] points. Buy as much Superman as you can afford and I'll see what we can do". Or he doesn't. In that campaign, you can build Superman for however many points you think aren't nearly enough. He's a blurry portrait, but he is Superman in that setting for the same reason I have had characters with names like Bob Tiger or Argus or Thunder Rabbit or whatever. They were them in those universes. The independent existence of Superman outside that setting is a moot point. Within the limitations of the game, he is Superman, even if he isn't anywhere else in the multiverse?

 

And if you're the GM in this situation, you can just tell the player no.

 

This is Hero System. "You're doing it wrong" isn't part of the mindset. Instead it's "Here's how I do it". It's a paraphrase of someone else's tagline, but it fits.

 

"You're Doing it Wrong!" is more of a power build. Something like a Severe Transform....around 6D6 "Here's How I Do It!" is probably more of a tagline for a Deflection Build to protect oneself from "You're Doing It Wrong" attacks....

 

~Rex

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RexMundi Grand Master

RexMundi

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

Very True. Seriously though you could in the setting of Doc's, drop the Doc Savage moniker, and call him Superman and he would be Legit as Superman. That was his Niche. That type of guy.

 

Enemies and Allies by Kevin Anderson gives a nice rendition of both Superman and Batman as set against the backdrop of the 50's that I thought would have made a great comic story much less the fun book that it was to read. There was no doubt that Superman WAS Superman. He fit the Niche of the Setting and conformed to the scale of the story as well.

 

~Rex

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Lawnmower Boy Veteran

Lawnmower Boy

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

"You're Doing it Wrong!" is more of a power build. Something like a Severe Transform....around 6D6 "Here's How I Do It!" is probably more of a tagline for a Deflection Build to protect oneself from "You're Doing It Wrong" attacks....

 

~Rex

 

A transform that leaves you a more munchkinny version of yourself and uncontrollable berserk versus trolls?

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Orion Community Regular

Orion

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

Very True. Seriously though you could in the setting of Doc's, drop the Doc Savage moniker, and call him Superman and he would be Legit as Superman. That was his Niche. That type of guy.

~Rex

 

I think this is the key point of the argument for some of us. You say Superman is a niche idea. I say it is a person with a distinct set of powers and abilities. To me at least, there is no possibility of agreement in these two positions. Your position is so far from mine that I had never even considered it before, nor heard it mentioned before the current discussion here.

 

If someone wants to reuse the name Superman for their new character, more power to them. Just don't try to claim "this is the DC character from X story". If they want to say it is Superman, then I feel it must have all the powers and abilities of whatever version they are modeling. Points, playability, and game balance don't enter the equation at all. Don't leave off some of the powers and say that getting the important ones is all that matters - include them all. There is a difference between modeling a character, and making a character that has similarities to an existing one. Both are fine to do, just don't confuse which is being done.

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ErikModi Enthusiast

ErikModi

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

maybe we should build a generic kryptonian first. this suit of power would just stack. if you use source material clark is just a farmboy turned hero i'm sure there are soldiers doctors athletes ect. on krypton the should be able out stripe him in there fields if we are honest with his creation

 

Awhile ago, I did just that. Based more on the Smallville presentation of Kryptonians, the 75 active points is to make the powers legal for the HERO game I'm playing in.

 

Kryptonian Strength: +60 STR (60 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 30

 

Kryptonian Agility: +30 DEX (60 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 30

 

Kryptonian Constitution: +60 CON (60 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 30

 

Kryptonian Speed: +7 SPD (70 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 35

 

Kryptonian Recovery: +71 REC (71 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 35

 

Kryptonian Endurance: +355 END (71 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 35

 

Kryptonian Body: +65 BODY (65 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 32

 

Kryptonian Stun: +130 STUN (65 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 32

 

Kryptonian Toughness I: +73 PD (73 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4), Bypassed by Kryptonian Strength (-1/4) Cost: 32

 

Kryptonian Toughness II: +73 ED (73 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 36

 

Kryptonian Resistance I: Resistant Protection (50 PD) (75 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4), Bypassed by Kryptonian Strength (-1/4) Cost: 33

 

Kryptonian Resistance II: Resistant Protection (50 ED) (75 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 37

 

Kryptonian Invulnerability I: Damage Negation (-15 DCs Physical) (75 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4), Bypassed by Kryptonian Strength (-1/4) Cost: 33

 

Kryptonian Invulnerability II: Damage Negation (-15 DCs Energy) (75 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 37

 

Kryptonian Indomitability: Knockback Resistance -75m (75 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4), Bypassed by Kryptonian Strength (-1/4) Cost: 33

 

Kryptonian Regeneration: Regeneration (3 BODY per Turn), Can Heal Limbs, Resurrection (73 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4) Cost: 36

 

Kryptonian Movement: Movement, 75-point reserve

4f Kryptonian Flight: Flight 75m (75 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4)

4f Leaping +150m (154m forward, 77m upward) (75 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4)

4f Running +75m (87m total) (75 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4)

2f Swimming +75m (79m total) (38 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4)

 

Kryptonian Tricks: Multipower, 75-point reserve

4f Heat Vision: Killing Attack - Ranged 5d6 (75 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4)

4f Arctic Breath: Blast 15d6 (75 Active Points); Deleted by Gold Kryptonite (-1/2), Suppressed by Blue Kryptonite (-1/4), Suppressed by Green Kryptonite (-1/4)

 

Of course, you still end up with an almost 800 point character BEFORE applying points to ordinary characteristics, skills, etc.

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RexMundi Grand Master

RexMundi

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Re: The One, True Son of Krypton

 

I think this is the key point of the argument for some of us. You say Superman is a niche idea. I say it is a person with a distinct set of powers and abilities. To me at least, there is no possibility of agreement in these two positions. Your position is so far from mine that I had never even considered it before, nor heard it mentioned before the current discussion here.

 

If someone wants to reuse the name Superman for their new character, more power to them. Just don't try to claim "this is the DC character from X story". If they want to say it is Superman, then I feel it must have all the powers and abilities of whatever version they are modeling. Points, playability, and game balance don't enter the equation at all. Don't leave off some of the powers and say that getting the important ones is all that matters - include them all. There is a difference between modeling a character, and making a character that has similarities to an existing one. Both are fine to do, just don't confuse which is being done.

 

Superman is just a niche though. A spot in the food chain, an Apex Predator. I look at Superman like any real Editor or World creator does in the comic industry. As part of the bigger picture that everything else is scaled against one way or another. Of course The folks that cling to the idea that Superman HAS to BE this or that one specific build, regardless of history or evolution, aren't looking at it it the same way I am. They're focused a lot smaller, their favorite tree as opposed to the forest. My Superman, following the way the industry looks at him, is the keystone in an arch. Not just a specific rock, and like that keystone, it has a job and meaning that goes beyond being a specific rock. That's been the successful view of an industry that's kept Superman, and others like him, around for closing in on a century. When you cage that idea down to the ultimate in specifics, you end up with something more like Savage Dragon, and far removed from the ideal that is Superman.

 

~Rex

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