Hyper-Man Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 I just recently read BATMAN: EARTH ONE. It is an updated origin story that incorporates the recent film's idea that Batman does not invent most of the gadgets that he uses, especially what he carries in his Utility Belt, but instead finds people to do it for him. Based on this I don't believe he truly qualifies to be called a Gadgeteer. He's also not really a Weapon Master as those are only a small part of what he carries in his Belt. I consider him a Detective first and foremost (not sure if that's an official archetype from Champions though). What archetype do you think he fits best? (I considered making this a poll but I'm more interested in folk's responses and reasons behind them) HM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? Lunatic? I think he was a gadgeteer back in the TV show, as he tended to use the bat-computer to solve crimes. In the comics he's best as a Detective, but that's not an archetype so I'd make him a martial artist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? There's a story in one of the prose Batman anthologies where Batman got some of his gear from the same place Riddler got his trick question marks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? There's a story in one of the prose Batman anthologies where Batman got some of his gear from the same place Riddler got his trick question marks. I read that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 6, 2012 Report Share Posted September 6, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? Neutral Ground Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nolgroth Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? I am not steeped in Batman lore going back to his earliest incarnations. Honestly, I didn't become a Batman fan until The Dark Knight Returns series was first released. Even then, I never really jumped on the regular series. I stuck mostly with the graphic novels and movies. That said, and this is in Hero terms, I would call Batman a Martial Artist with gadgets. He has a staple of old favorites (Batarang, Grapple Hook Gun, etc) but has access to even more goodies. In fact, I would go so far as to say that Resource Pools were pretty much designed around the Batman concept. More than anything though, he is a martial artist. When the gadgets fail, he beats people up. When he successfully follows the clues to the Evil Lair , he beats people up. When he is in disguise and needs information from an informant, he beats them up. After he is done posing dramatically, he beats people up. You get the idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywind Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? During the Justice League/Suicide Squad cross-over Cap'n Boomerang challenged Batman to see whose weapon was better. They each tossed their respectives and Boomerang's sliced the batarang in half. Boomerang was jumping for joy over it when Batman clocked him. "I AM my weapon." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? Hyperman I would say that just because he because he doesn't create his his gadgets he still would be considered a gadgeteer because alot of his 'super' powers come from his gadgets. Just like I would call Stronghammer the dwarf from Enemies III a gadgeteer even though his gadgets are magical in nature. As for Bats being a martial artist, I agree depending on which version of bats you go with; Batman:tas-yes, Batman the adam west '60s not really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JmOz Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? Weapon Master. By the descrition it includes aspects of gadgeteer and martial artist...sounds like Bats to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? He's the G_____mn Batman. Lucius Alexander This is a palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? I think he was a gadgeteer back in the TV show, as he tended to use the bat-computer to solve crimes. He also had a Bat-device for nearly every situation. These days, he's likely built on so many points he transcends any archetype. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enforcer84 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? He's the G_____mn Batman. Lucius Alexander This is a palindromedary Gollomn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danbuter1 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? He's a gadgeteering detective. It kind of morphs together. Of course, the last few years, he's also super-martial artist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? A couple of the Novelizations and outright Novels have built on what The Batman IS and Does Archetype wise. He's a Thinking Martial Artist Detective that Uses Gadgets. In short, back in the old days he was what was known as an "Other" ..... ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psyber624 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? Some incarnations may vary on this, but in quite a few batman does indeed "invent" any number of his own gadgets, especially the "one story" type gadgets. True he gets alot of them from other sources (Lucious Fox for example) but he is generally seen as being about to cobble something together. To me, Batman is an amalgam of types. and he is highly flexible in that he will even change archetype when the circumstances call for it "Powered Armored Brick Batman!" for instance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan D. Hurricanes Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgetee or something else? There's a story in one of the prose Batman anthologies where Batman got some of his gear from the same place Riddler got his trick question marks. I recall that story fondly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgeteer or something else? I think Batman is like James Bond when placing him in an archetype. That is, he doesn't really fit into one, but several. I think it comes down to storyline/writer to determine which archetype he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
薔薇語 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgeteer or something else? I think something people end up doing with the archetypes is to try and go against the HERO mandate. The mandate that we worry about the essentials of a power, ability, etc., and leave everything else to special effect. How does that apply in this situation, though? I think it applies because we are trying to too narrowly define what makes a gadgeteer a gadgeteer. What is essential to the type? I'd say that the most crucial aspect is that the character make primary use of various nick-knacks. This helping us understand that this class of character, unlike the kind archetypes of Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, or most others in the JLA. They may, from time to time, use some device to accomplish a goal, but it isn't the source of their influence on the world. It isn't SOP for them, as it were. But in the case of Batman, his main impact on the world comes from two large sources - super intellect and gadgets. Without those gadgets (everything from Util Belt to car to super comp), Batman's influence would be drastically reduced. It is to that end that I would classify Batman - in all incarnations that I am aware of - as a gadgeteer. Even in the movies, where he personally invents nothing, he still is aided dramatically by his gadgets. But I take the "creation of gadgets" to just be the special effect of one class of Gadgeteer - not a defining characteristic. It is to this end that I would consider a variety of Magic users (potion masters, ring bearers, etc) to be Gadgeteers. Their method of developing the gadget may vary, but the essence of who they are is in their access to varied trinkets of value. All else is fluff. All that said, though, I might consider the Batman of the modern movie franchise to be a weapon master simply because his gadget almost always focus on the action intense scenes (weapons, vehicles, etc). He is rarely using gadgets outside of that narrow arena. That accompanied by his primary focus as an ex-League of Shadow's Ninja does muddy the waters. Anyway, that is my 2 cents. La Rose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahuna's bro Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgeteer or something else? would nija/gadgeteer work i?n the animated series bruce wayne described hi as much a ninja as kodia ken[avillian orignal to the show] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrosshairCollie Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgeteer or something else? I would call him a Martial Artist/Gadgeteer hybrid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haerandir Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgeteer or something else? I believe I can categorically state that Batman is not a jelly donut. After that things get a little fuzzy. I've never understood this fascination with debating whether an existing character fits into one archetype or another. As far as I can tell, the inclusion of a list of 'superhero archetypes' in Champions was never intended to create an overarching taxonomy of every possible superheroic character. It's just a list of suggestions for players having trouble coming up with a character concept. This is why there are separate 'archetypes' for character concepts that clearly overlap with other 'archetypes', like Gadgeteer/Power Armor or Weaponmaster/Martial Artist. Mystic and Patriot were particularly frustrating, because they basically boiled down to, 'buy a bunch of powers and call it magic' and 'buy a bunch of skills and powers, then wear a snazzy costume'. If they had truly tried to cover all the bases, they'd have either come up with a shorter list of hopelessly broad archetypes (Ranged Combatant! Puncher! Guy With Powers That Don't Neccessarily Do Damage!) or a list so long it would have to have been it's own book, and still would've been incomplete. Champions 6th attempted to clarify things by creating a separate category of 'Meta-Archetypes' and including more thematic suggestions like 'Detective' and 'Cosmic'. And they've got a nice little text box at the end of that chapter reminding you that 'Archetypes aren't supposed to be straitjackets; they're intended as inspiration and guidance only.' Still, people keep asking, 'Is Batman a Gadgeteer or a Martial Artist?' or 'Is Superman a Brick or an Energy Projector?' 'Is Psylocke a Martial Artist or a Mentalist?' 'Is Spider-man a Martial Artist?' The answer is always, always, always going to wind up being 'Yes, but also no, and something else besides.' So why even ask? Is Batman a Gadgeteer? He uses lots of different, custom-built devices to accomplish a variety of tasks, so sure. Is he a Weaponmaster? Well, he specializes in a particular, unique weapon (the Batarang), so yeah, that too. Is he a Martial Artist? Check. Can we find a way to define him as a Speedster? He kinda-sorta does have some wacky movement powers, like a grapple-gun, glider cape, acrobatics, assorted vehicles and that whole 'disappearing when you glance away' schtick, so why not? Who cares? Let's call him a Metamorph, too! He uses disguises and alternate identities sometimes. Matches Malone FTW! Batman is Batman, and he does Batman things. As far as character design goes, your guideline is that he can do the things Batman can do, and not the things Batman can't do. If you find a useful power suggestion in a list titled 'Mentalist Powers', go ahead and use it. If you already know what kind of character you're trying to build, then archetypes are moot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin2 Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgeteer or something else? I think you need to define which Batman you are talking about. He has so many differences he will fit into anyone you want and all of them. Batman is Batman. Name a hero which has 50+ years of comic time that has always fitted into an archetype perfectly with no SFX that fits into another archetype? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmjalund Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgeteer or something else? I believe I can categorically state that Batman is not a jelly donut. After that things get a little fuzzy.So he could be a cream donut? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninja-Bear Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgeteer or something else? would nija/gadgeteer work i?n the animated series bruce wayne described hi as much a ninja as kodia ken[avillian orignal to the show] Now that you mention it, I consider ninjas to be the gadgeteers of the martial art world. They always have a gimmick or tool besides weapons to help them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan D. Hurricanes Posted September 7, 2012 Report Share Posted September 7, 2012 Re: Do you consider Batman to be a Gadgeteer or something else? I think you need to define which Batman you are talking about. He has so many differences he will fit into anyone you want and all of them. Batman is Batman. Name a hero which has 50+ years of comic time that has always fitted into an archetype perfectly with no SFX that fits into another archetype? The Thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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