[Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

VIPER's inflitration or influence of the Canadian Government.

 

Cyberlord has returned, but it is the original, an imposter, or a copy.

 

Tilingkoot how does a Demon cope with defeat after defeat by heroes.

 

 

Cheers

 

 

QM

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Not to interrupt the wonderful dialogue on "Champions Down Under" (a book I'd very much like to see:

--------

Changes I Would Make in a COTN6.

Looking at about a 256 page book, available as PDF only. Possibly with a small 96 page book available for those who have the 5th edition COTN and only want the changes.

 

Revisions

 

History

A couple of gaps in the real world timeline would be filled. Substantially more details on the history of the major superteams would be added.

 

Canada-US Relations

With Necrull's defeat, and the assistance of American superhumans against Kigatilik, the border has become more relaxed to superhumans, However, there's still some tensions, especially when American heroes ignore Canadian sovereignty and attempt to transport villains across the border, or carry heavy ordinance. Additionally, a secret base was discovered on Canadian soil, built by an American security agency researching WMDs, which also caused controversy.

 

Updates

Each of the major city sections would be updated for the current date, and errors corrected. I'll be asking for more info from gamers on what should be included in descriptions of their city, and if I can find a few public domain maps to include, I will.

 

Major Events

 

New events covered by the history section include:

 

- The release of Kigatilik and the battle of Lynx's Fold to drive him back into the Frost Tomb.

- The defeat of Necrull, and his slow rebirth.

- Borealis's two week conquest of Toronto.

- The Roin'esh invasion of Steelhead (and how Canada joined the space race) and the subsequent creation of the New Canadian Rocket Brigade and Canada's own orbiting space base.

- Stormcaster's attack on Newfoundland and the death and subsequent transformation of Argosy.

- The death of Wally Thompson (pending Cryptic approval), the original Forceknight.

 

Heroes and Villains

 

STARFORCE 2012

Now pretty much the de facto National team, though they're still mostly dealing with Toronto issues, they do help out the Steelheads when called upon. The current roster is:

 

Justiciar: Canadian cyborg, leader, industrialist, and (gay) husband.

 

Prism Girl: Perky Greek-Canadian heroine.

 

Dust Devil: Rambunctious and surly Western Canadian brickhouse.

 

Forceknight (VI): Sean Doerksen, teenage son of Forceknight III, probationary member.

 

Astral: Celestar's cosmically imbued daughter, now sharing some of her father's power.

 

Argos: Prince of Water Elementals, now inhabiting the vastly changed body of Argosy.

 

Reserve members: Thundrax, Ravenspeaker, the Constable, three unnamed supers (probably can be bought as kickstarter levels). Also, Starforce's AI Kivioq will be described.

 

Other Heroes: I'll also solicit from friends, in both PnP and Champions Online, about 8-10 Canadian NPC heroes who'll get a brief mention in the city writeups (possibly included as kickstarter levels.).

 

Other Significant Character Changes:

 

The Constable

He resigned from Starforce to become Derringer's right hand man in the Steelhead division.

 

Forceknight V

Alice Hellion is now Rocketknight, head of the New Canadian Rocket Brigade.

 

Celestar

Lon stupidly attempted to force his way into the Frost Tomb to free his imprisoned teammates, nearly opening a catastrophic rift that could have brought about a new Ice Age. He was punished by the Land, who stripped him of some of his power, granting it to his illegitimate teenage daughter, Astral.

 

Steelhead Division

There'll be more info on some of the people introduced to Steelhead in Champions Online, especially in Whiteout.

 

Villains

 

Kigatilik is now active, as seen in Champions Villains Volume One.

 

Punition will be forced into at least temporary retirement (he attempted to form an alliance with Nihil and to his horror, he was treated as "just another Canadian" by the insane Nazi, whose hatred of Canadians didn't seem to make any allowances for Quebec sovereigntists). A new Quebecois feature villain will emerge in his place.

 

Necrull will be slightly reimagined, as he has been reduced in power, he's turning back to more of his pulp science background and performing new, grisly Necrullitic experiments.

 

At least one new villain team (probably the Bannermen, a coalition of disaffected children of silver and bronze age heroes led by the Black Banner) and several new supervillains will be detailed. I want to go back and work in the Leonarch from the original proposal; Borealis's crew will get at least two new members, H.E.C.T.O.R (a battlesuit engineer), and one other to be decided later.

 

The Hunter-Patriots

The H-Ps have suffered a major defeat with two of their three most important leaders captured and cut off from the H-P psi link. However, other more dangerous ones have stepped up in their place, including the Perfect Patriot, who claims to be a rogue clone of Teleios (the truth will be more complicated), and the battlesuit-clad brickhouse Dark Dreadnought, who's trying to turn the H-Ps into an unknowing instrument for his true masters, ARGENT.

 

VIPER

The ancient power of The Whisperer in Jade has been reborn, and is extending its curse across Canada again, including an attempt to infiltrate VIPER. However a new power has risen, the Ascendant, a Project: Awakening created telepath who has her own plans for VIPER in the true North.

 

Cyberlord

The creator of Justiciar's cybernetics and his arch-enemy (and father-in-law!) has

returned. But what are his secrets?

 

Tilingkoot

The demon of the lost also suffered a defeat along with his (now former) master Kigatilik, but has regrouped and is in the process of extending his influence into the remnants of DEMON in Canada.

 

GM Section

More cool bits of Canadiana, a list of differences between Canadian law and American law that might trip up a GM, a list of items and businesses unique to Canada, and various American chains with little to no presence here.

 

NEW SECTIONS

 

Wild West Canada: Packages and information for running Canada in Old West campaigns.

 

Pulp Canada: Packages and information for running Canada in pulp campaigns.

 

The Worlds of Canada: We'll be covering the mystic world, the martial world, the mercenary world, and the business world, and also clarifying the place of various mystic entities in the Champions Universe cosmology.

 

Due to its importance in Champions Online, Force Station Steelhead will be described, though there will likely be a few changes (some of the sub-sections of that zone, such as the sasquatch villages, will probably be left undocumented for computer game players to discover).

 

Sounds like fun, Scott. What's a Whisperer in Jade? And what, exactly, is up with those VIPER dudes in Abbotsford?

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Something interesting and cool about this: there is evidence of aboriginal cultural continuity extending back to what in the CU would be the Atlantean Age, and beyond. Contacts with Lemuria would certainly have been possible. The creation of the Birdmen of Thaar occurred while aboriginal cultures existed too.

 

 

Did someone mention delicious babies?

 

From my perspective, the less we have to fiddle with out geological past to get to Steve Long's timeline, the better. Looking at the maps that we have, the only one that really has to be thrown out is the one in Atlantean Age. Ambrethel is close enough to a two-Ice-Ages back Eurasia for me, while Valdoria is an island continent close to another island continent on the other side of the world from Ambrethel and Atlantis.

 

Sound like anywhere we know? Australia has clearly changed a great deal since the days when it was Valdoria. I'd think that the drying out of the Smouldering Sea would do that to a place. Alan Thomas' map shows New Zealand (Ureth Kalai) far too close to the east coast, but that's the kind of thing that happened in medieval geography, and Abyzinia/New Guinea is more than a little fanciful in outline, and also a little hotter and wetter than it was 50,00 years ago. (Those paleontologists don't know everything, you know.)

 

As to what happened between the days of the end of the Valdorian Empire and the Australia of the aborigines (clearly themselves Elothian-descended), well, it's all a bit hazy. Dreamy, even.

 

From my perspective, the question is how Takofanes' tomb moved from the north coast of New Guinea to Oklahoma. I have a feeling that there's a bit to this story (apart from Krim's activities since days agone) that hasn't been told.

[assault]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Not to interrupt the wonderful dialogue on "Champions Down Under" (a book I'd very much like to see:

 

Sorry about the hijack. COTN is just such an inspiration for such a thing.

 

Changes I Would Make in a COTN6.

Looking at about a 256 page book, available as PDF only. Possibly with a small 96 page book available for those who have the 5th edition COTN and only want the changes.

 

Want.

[assault]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

From my perspective' date=' the question is how Takofanes' tomb moved from the north coast of New Guinea to Oklahoma. I have a feeling that there's a bit to this story (apart from Krim's activities since days agone) that hasn't been told.[/quote']

 

Wonderful.

 

On an unrelated note, I've noticed that UNTIL trains its supers at their base in Port Hedland, Western Australia. Oh dear. No wonder there is so little supercrime in Australia - villains get dogpiled by UNITY reservists and trainees.

 

Who, of course, don't count as "active" supers.

 

It's likely that a fair number of Australian supers train with UNTIL and then either join overseas teams or work for UNTIL in roles appropriate to their powers. UNITY itself is only one of the places where UNTIL can use supers.

 

Historically, I'm thinking that the people who would have become "mystery men" in the US joined the military in 1939, and become elite commandoes and fighter aces. I don't want to rule out the existence of heroes with real powers though. There wouldn't have been too many though - Australia's population was only about 7 million during WW2.

 

I have no idea about the Silver Age. I might acknowledge that Australian superheroes existed in the early 80s - about the time Champions started being played here! The 90s would probably feature the 4e characters.

 

In all cases it would be: "here are some heroes that existed at this time. There were probably some others as well." Anything else needlessly closes off options.

 

The 19th century could be fun. Captain Thunderbolt was a real person.

[DShomshak]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

This might tie into the origins of Saguenay, the extra-dimensional pocket realm ruled by Baron Nihil. Thanks, Dean!

Saguenay? Oh. OH.

 

See, the west coast of North America is even more of a patchwork than the East. Over hundreds of millions of years, North America has collected dozens of old volcanic islands, shreds of oceanic crust and scraps torn off other continents. In fact, everything from the coast inland to the Rockies consists of such "exotic terranes" (the geological term) that have been swept up and smooshed together.

 

Until now it didn't occur to me to have the same thing happen metaphysically. Bits get torn off Earth or one of the Parterres, drift through the Astral Plan and merge with another dimension. Astral cysts accrete. Maybe even little Outer Planes stick to bigger dimensions and slowly merge -- a slow, natural version of what Skarn and Tyrannon do by force.

 

Saguenay could be a North European culture that got erased from Earth by powerful magic or time paradox, but continued to exist as a pocket dimension. Maybe it's all Nihil's dream. Maybe it's a little Outer Plane that Greater Earth swept up. It's only begun to assimilate to Earth. By traveling back and forth, Nihil is speeding the process. At some point, the whole pocket world splices itself into Canada, BLOOP. The event is likely preceded by earthquakes, auroras, rains of toads and other natural and supernatural prodigies. The metaphysical shock might also crack open other prisons and portals. Preventing or easilng the merger could be a suitably epic challenge for heroes.

 

Dean Shomshak

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Or maybe it's squatters hanging out in a structure built by someone else, for other reasons.

 

"your Grace? There's a lich waiting to see you. He wants to know what you did with his dragons. He said you have thirty seconds."

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Reading this made me want to write Champions Down Under. Fortunately I was able to resist the temptation.

 

Still, I whiled away a couple of hours thinking about how to get around the canonical shortage of superbeings in the Champions Universe.

 

My solutions were:

(a) Don't bother. Australia is a place to visit, not a place to set a campaign.

( Superbeings emerge now. Either foreign heroes have to come to help with the resulting crisis, new heroes emerge, or both.

© The superbeing population is chronically underestimated. This works for limited origin games: all mutant groups, non-powered street level supers or Challengers of the Unknown/Fantastic Four type explorers. None of these necessarily have the high profile of "standard" superheroes. (Australia is nice and close to a bunch of Hidden Lands, and the Well of Worlds allows access to a bunch of dimensions, making the exploration thing quite feasible).

(d) Ignore the whole thing, and raid the CU for parts. (What I would actually do).

 

Funnily enough, I've been having computer issues too over the last few days. All sorted now, hopefully.

 

 

The Mythic History part is the really interesting bit in Scott's work. It's the kind of thing I probably wouldn't have thought of, although I have toyed with some vaguely comparable ideas in the past.

 

Looking at the existing published material, there is already something of a high concept to CU Australia - it's all about the Well of Worlds and the Dreaming. That would have to be a starting point for an "official" "Champions Down Under".

 

Unfortunately, it's not a concept I particularly care for. If I was writing an unofficial version for whatever reason, I would have to come up with something else. Or perhaps not. Is such a high concept actually necessary? Would anyone actually use it? Probably not, I think.

 

I've long thought that the Well of Worlds would be a very appropriate mechanism to suddenly up the official supers population Down Under, considering that in the official Champions Universe higher ambient magic loosens the laws of physics enough for all the varied origins of comic-book supers to be possible, and that was launched by a malfunctioning ritual by Third Reich mystics in 1938. All you would need is some occult tampering at the Well -- say, a scheme by Marmoo, or DEMON investigating its potential -- to accidentally loose a wave of magic across Australia, sparking a cascade of origins.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

I read that as implying (intentionally or not), that Taipan's origins are linked to those Melbourne supers.

 

So who is Taipan? Australia's failed supersoldier project. There's some pretty embarrassed people in Canberra who really don't want to talk about how the Melbourne Super Friends' last mission involved taking out the brood project that would have created a million Taipans....

 

FWIW in my own CU-based campaign, I made Taipan the mentioned but unspecified third child of Nama from VIPER: Coils Of The Serpent. In my campaign the child who would become Taipan was given over to VIPER's order of ninja-like assassins, the Takara-shinja, to be raised and trained as VIPER's ultimate assassin, as his half-sister Viperia is the organization's premier enforcer. But Taipan chafed at serving anyone, preferring to strike out on his own. Using VIPER's own criminal contacts in the Far East he faked his death and adopted a cover identity in Australia, far from VIPER's main operations. For years he lay low, continuing to hone his abilities, until he felt ready to make a name for himself.

 

As a result of Taipan's very public trial, Nama became aware his prodigal son was still alive. Over the years Taipan was in hot sleep in prison Nama insinuated dreams into his subconscious, chastising, tempting, threatening. When Nama believed he had broken Taipan's mind to his will he awakened him and aided his escape from prison. Whether Taipan actually is fully under Nama's control hasn't yet been put to the test.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Saguenay? Oh. OH.

 

See, the west coast of North America is even more of a patchwork than the East. Over hundreds of millions of years, North America has collected dozens of old volcanic islands, shreds of oceanic crust and scraps torn off other continents. In fact, everything from the coast inland to the Rockies consists of such "exotic terranes" (the geological term) that have been swept up and smooshed together.

 

Until now it didn't occur to me to have the same thing happen metaphysically. Bits get torn off Earth or one of the Parterres, drift through the Astral Plan and merge with another dimension. Astral cysts accrete. Maybe even little Outer Planes stick to bigger dimensions and slowly merge -- a slow, natural version of what Skarn and Tyrannon do by force.

 

Saguenay could be a North European culture that got erased from Earth by powerful magic or time paradox, but continued to exist as a pocket dimension. Maybe it's all Nihil's dream. Maybe it's a little Outer Plane that Greater Earth swept up. It's only begun to assimilate to Earth. By traveling back and forth, Nihil is speeding the process. At some point, the whole pocket world splices itself into Canada, BLOOP. The event is likely preceded by earthquakes, auroras, rains of toads and other natural and supernatural prodigies. The metaphysical shock might also crack open other prisons and portals. Preventing or easilng the merger could be a suitably epic challenge for heroes.

 

Dean Shomshak

 

The same sort of process could account for Lyoness, which according to the website's listing of Champions Universe Places And Things, is "An extra-dimensional/underwater mystic realm located off the coast of Europe, home to (among others) the fiendish Fomorians." Lyoness might even be a survivor of the lands and creatures of Tuala Morn, adrift in the Astral Plane after the change in the Earth that destroyed the civilizations of that era.

 

Or maybe it's squatters hanging out in a structure built by someone else, for other reasons.

"your Grace? There's a lich waiting to see you. He wants to know what you did with his dragons. He said you have thirty seconds."

 

Takofanes is supposed to have a lot of extra-dimensional real estate which serves as his bases of operation in the modern world. What you describe sounds like a very plausible alternative to the (super)natural process described above.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Did someone mention delicious babies?

 

From my perspective, the less we have to fiddle with out geological past to get to Steve Long's timeline, the better. Looking at the maps that we have, the only one that really has to be thrown out is the one in Atlantean Age. Ambrethel is close enough to a two-Ice-Ages back Eurasia for me, while Valdoria is an island continent close to another island continent on the other side of the world from Ambrethel and Atlantis.

 

Sound like anywhere we know? Australia has clearly changed a great deal since the days when it was Valdoria. I'd think that the drying out of the Smouldering Sea would do that to a place. Alan Thomas' map shows New Zealand (Ureth Kalai) far too close to the east coast, but that's the kind of thing that happened in medieval geography, and Abyzinia/New Guinea is more than a little fanciful in outline, and also a little hotter and wetter than it was 50,00 years ago. (Those paleontologists don't know everything, you know.)

 

As to what happened between the days of the end of the Valdorian Empire and the Australia of the aborigines (clearly themselves Elothian-descended), well, it's all a bit hazy. Dreamy, even.

 

From my perspective, the question is how Takofanes' tomb moved from the north coast of New Guinea to Oklahoma. I have a feeling that there's a bit to this story (apart from Krim's activities since days agone) that hasn't been told.

 

Between the Turakian Age and the modern world, we have two epic magically-induced catastrophes that radically reshaped the surface of the globe (at the end of the Turakian and Atlantean Ages), plus one lesser upheaval which overthrew at least Western Europe, and probably the Middle East, during the age of Tuala Morn. There's no need to depend on real-world geologic history to justify nearly any landmass relocation needed for a given story, unless including such real details works for the particular background you want.

[assault]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

I've long thought that the Well of Worlds would be a very appropriate mechanism to suddenly up the official supers population Down Under' date='[/quote']

 

Decades ago, I remember reading the Superhero 2044 supplement, Hazard, which presented a very bizarre portrayal of Australia in the Superhero 2044 setting.

 

At the time, my response was strongly negative, but I have since thought that the idea of a Weird Australia has potential.

 

A lot of it is just making stuff like this actually true.

 

Of course, making a Weird Australia canonical in the CU would be a mistake, but as a fan project... hmm...

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Villains

 

Kigatilik is now active, as seen in Champions Villains Volume One.

 

[sNIP]

 

Tilingkoot

The demon of the lost also suffered a defeat along with his (now former) master Kigatilik, but has regrouped and is in the process of extending his influence into the remnants of DEMON in Canada.

 

I'd just like to point out that Glacier is believed to have headed back to the far North after escaping from Stronghold. He'd be a natural for Kigatilik to draft into his service. For that matter, Kigatilik might have had something to do with Glacier's creation.

 

I'll also mention that I've long wanted to run a major story arc in which Kigatilik encounters Eclipsar, and the two epic mystic villains discover their natures and goals are highly compatible. They plan to merge their vast powers to plunge the entire Earth into unending winter night.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Decades ago' date=' I remember reading the Superhero 2044 supplement, Hazard, which presented a very bizarre portrayal of Australia in the Superhero 2044 setting.

 

At the time, my response was strongly negative, but I have since thought that the idea of a Weird Australia has potential.

 

A lot of it is just making stuff like this actually true.

 

Of course, making a Weird Australia canonical in the CU would be a mistake, but as a fan project... hmm...

 

But that's exactly the point I was trying to make: higher magic in the CU made possible all the genetic mutations, supertech, freak radiation accidents, and other diverse origins for supers who in and of themselves are not magical. Using the Well of Worlds as a triggering event doesn't have to result in "Weird Australia" -- you could just have an upsurge in all the different types of supers as in the rest of the world, exactly as post-Walpurgisnacht Working.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

When people talk about Canada, or even think about the country, they think about two things: the vastness and beauty of the geography, and the cold. Those two elements are at the heart of our national mythology.

 

I couldn’t really present a unified First Nations origin of the continent’s myths because there is none. There are dozens of bands and nations, and the mythology varies greatly between cultures separated by thousands of miles. But mythologizing those two elements felt right to me, with the Sea as a third element because of its importance in maritime culture. Treating the Land as an entity ties in with the animism that’s a part of most First Nations cultures, so it “feels” true and respectful of those cultures, even if it’s not a copy of any First Nations myth. It was important to me that I tried to respect the cultures of my country, and the background of Ravenspeaker and Tilingkoot were both trying to draw on that part of Canada’s heritage beyond “just give them a magic pool”.

 

The Land//Ice conflict reflects in a mythological sense the end of the Ice Age which is when many anthropologists believe First Nations’ peoples began to settle into their modern habitation patterns across North America, so it appealed to me as myth mirroring actual history. And most importantly, it gave me a backdrop for character origins and conflicts that I could play with to tell the stories I wanted.

 

Thanks to global warming, it looks like the Ice is currently losing that conflict. Or is perhaps global warming not wholly as natural nor as man-made as we believe? Perhaps the actions of the Land, or some other force, has been helping to accelerate it.

 

In any case, the Ice may be getting desperate, and preparing some type of elemental counterstrike. Heck, if the Land could create superhuman champions, why not the Ice?

[Lawnmower Boy]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Between the Turakian Age and the modern world' date=' we have two epic magically-induced catastrophes that radically reshaped the surface of the globe (at the end of the Turakian and Atlantean Ages), plus one lesser upheaval which overthrew at least Western Europe, and probably the Middle East, during the age of Tuala Morn. There's no need to depend on real-world geologic history to justify nearly any landmass relocation needed for a given story, unless including such real details works for the particular background you want.[/quote']

 

Exactly. I want to downplay the extent of geological resculpting, so that it's invisible from a modern scientific perspective. It's just easier that way. It's relatively straightforward for the Turakian Age, because the map of Ambrethel isn't too far different from that of Eurasia before the Big Dry (the proposed Super-Ice Age of c. 70,000 years ago). For the Valdorian-age known world, there's a reasonable fit with (again) an interglacial-era Australasia. The only continental plate that we need to move around is the Kerguelen submerged minicontinent, which presumably was just off Australia to provide for the southern sub-(Antarctic) archipelago. It presumably got kicked over where it currently is by the Atlantean cataclysm that sank Lemuria.

 

And now we have a map that pinpoints the location of Takofane's tomb. It's on the north coast of New Guinea.

 

Until it was moved. To Oklahoma. By whom, and when? By the 1344th Seabee Battalion, in 1944. Just why, and who gave the orders, is another question entirely.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Astral: Celestar's cosmically imbued daughter, now sharing some of her father's power.

 

[sNIP]

 

Celestar

Lon stupidly attempted to force his way into the Frost Tomb to free his imprisoned teammates, nearly opening a catastrophic rift that could have brought about a new Ice Age. He was punished by the Land, who stripped him of some of his power, granting it to his illegitimate teenage daughter, Astral.

 

Hmm... not sure how I feel about Celestar having his power reduced. The Champions Universe has only a few heavyweight NPC superheroes, which since this is a PC-based game is only appropriate; but for that reason losing one seems a little drastic. Would you consider having the Land transfer Celestar's power to Astral entirely? That could make for some interesting story possibilities in itself. On top of that, giving such power to a relatively inexperienced super makes her easier to use with PCs, since she's unlikely to have the skill or breadth with her powers to render them superfluous.

 

I also have to mention that I've always questioned the logic of Celestar being given "the power of the stars" by the Land, when there's another great spirit of the North, the Sky, which presumably would have jurisdiction over their power. Perhaps the Land "called in a favor" from the Sky to borrow its power? If that were the case, it might also be that Borealis was primarily a creation of the Sky itself, a "yin/yang" balance to Celestar which was the price for its help to the Land.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

And now we have a map that pinpoints the location of Takofane's tomb. It's on the north coast of New Guinea.

 

Until it was moved. To Oklahoma. By whom, and when? By the 1344th Seabee Battalion, in 1944. Just why, and who gave the orders, is another question entirely.

 

Um... the idea of Takofanes's tomb being moved by any modern agency isn't anywhere in existing books. In fact, his origin states pretty clearly that it was far underground in Oklahoma (although not as far after the intervening upheavals of the Earth as it originally was) when it was accidentally broken into by an oil drilling rig, rousing the Archlich. How could someone have moved it half way around the world, without waking Takofanes, then buried it again, only to leave it unguarded for oil riggers to disturb? That's gonna take a pile of justification.

 

Of course if you want to say his tomb was near New Guinea nothing's stopping you, since nothing published for Champions or the Turakian Age specifies a geographic location for it. But by the same token there's no reason for it to not have been on whatever land mass eventually became Oklahoma.

[assault]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

I wonder how much CU geologists know about the various cataclysms that occurred in relatively recent geological history. They'd be pretty hard to miss, and the establishment of their existence would have had an interesting impact in the 19th Century debates around evolution and so on.

 

I like the New Guinea tomb location idea. Perhaps his tomb is actually interdimensional - "bigger on the inside" - with more than one access point. The OK geologists might have actually drilled into a shrine, rather than a literal tomb.

 

Alternatively, Tako's last and most devoted followers might have fled across the world with his remains after his fall.

 

Looking at the map in Turakian Age suggests one obvious problem: Turakia is near the north polar ice cap. For the New Guinea tomb idea to work, the world must have shifted substantially on its axis. Possible, but a very big change needed to support a cool but non-essential idea.

 

I think the OK location is simpler.

 

How does that fit in with the COTN mythology?

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

I wonder how much CU geologists know about the various cataclysms that occurred in relatively recent geological history. They'd be pretty hard to miss' date=' and the establishment of their existence would have had an interesting impact in the 19th Century debates around evolution and so on.[/quote']

 

Normally I'm not a big fan of the "Because it's Magic!" explanation for inconsistencies between a fictional Earth and the real one; but in this case it might be a useful one to apply. The past cataclysms were sparked by massive releases of magic, which could have had any number of transformative effects on the strata of the planet, leading geologists to various "mistaken" conclusions, at least in the early stages of the science.

 

OTOH many of the discoveries supporting the theory of plate tectonics were made in the Twentieth Century, and on Champions Earth that century featured other radical discoveries and events that aren't part of real-world history: an actual living remnant of Atlantis, which today has diplomatic relations with the rest of the world; multiple invasions by aliens from space, and even a few from other universes; gods, demons, and other beings from legend mingling with humanity. Scientific speculation has to have been broadened by all this tangible evidence of the reality of what's considered radical or fringe in the real world. I wouldn't be at all surprised if contemporary scientists on Champions Earth are well aware that the planet underwent several very rapid and extreme upheavals, although they may have their own theories as to the cause.

 

As far as debates about evolution, in the real world the late Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries saw numerous scientific and pseudo-scientific proposals for antediluvian civilizations, sunken continents, subterranean ecosystems, "lost worlds" on islands or plateaus, and the like. In the CU, though, some of those theories turned out to be true.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Here's another thought about a Champions Down Under book: With its relative lack of representation from most of the major international criminal organizations, plus its plethora of dangerous snakes, Australia would be a logical area for King Cobra and COIL to expand their operations, making for a distinctive Australian variation from the usual suspects.

[assault]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Definitely.

 

I'd also emphasise ARGENT. In the Real World, organised crime groups in Australia have historically tended to be less structured and stable than their US counterparts. If that pattern held in the CU, there would be plenty of scope for a group to provide "services" to ambitious gang leaders. And to the next set of leaders that replace them after they get eliminated by heroes and each other...

 

Part of my brain wants a bit of Mad Max action to be possible, but that would require a Weird Australia approach, with parts of the country falling out of control.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

Part of my brain wants a bit of Mad Max action to be possible' date=' but that would require a Weird Australia approach, with parts of the country falling out of control.[/quote']

 

Well, while it would not be a part of Australia per se, there might be an appropriate way to work that into the book. In the CU the dimension of Faerie embraces all the gods, races, and creatures of all the mythologies of Man which are still remembered. Portions of Faerie resemble mythic Greece, the Norse cosmos, etc. It's unclear whether the Dreamtime as described in Hidden Lands was intended to be part of Faerie (which from its description it easily could be), or its own separate dimension. In any case, the beliefs of the aboriginal people would naturally have created such an area in Faerie.

 

Now, The Mystic World describes a contemporary region of Faerie known as "The Even Wilder West." Originally the domain of the Native American myths, it became "colonized" by the imaginations of the European settlers to America, particularly the influence of dime-store novels about gunslingers and frontiersmen. Today the Even Wilder West is full of cowboys, homesteaders, outlaws, sherrifs, prospectors, and schoolmarms, who interact not only with Native American tribes, but with their gods, monsters, elves, and spirits.

 

The point of all this is that the iconic Mad Max characters and imagery may have become so affecting and pervasive in people's imaginations over the past thirty years, that they have begun to transform the Australian Outback portion of Faerie to resemble scenes from the movies, and created characters to fill roles from them. Faerie also encourages or even forces visitors from Earth to conform to the stereotypes of whatever region they're in. Note that the Well of Worlds not only leads to the Dreamtime, but to many other Assiatic and Astral dimensions; but spells to control exactly where you go are notoriously tricky.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

The Worlds of Canada: We'll be covering the mystic world' date=' the martial world, the mercenary world, and the business world, and also clarifying the place of various mystic entities in the Champions Universe cosmology.[/quote']

 

The Four Great Spirits from COTN have always perturbed me a little, since they don't fall neatly into the mythic cosmology of the Parterres. They're too elemental and metaphysical for Faerie, and not ethically motivated like the gods and spirits of Elysium. IMHO they would fit best in a dimension of the Outer Planes, in the sephiroth of Briah, the Creative World, with other Avatars of fundamental concepts (as described in The Mystic World p. 8). If that path was taken, it raises the issue of a reason for the Spirits' specific connection to the American North. Perhaps each region and/or culture on Earth has a conduit to one or more entities of Briah, who inspired the subsequent myths and folklore of the peoples of that region. Other primordial forces out of legend, such as Gaia or Ymir, might be similar entities linked to other areas of the planet.

[GestaltBennie]

Re: [Retro] COTN 5th edition proposal

 

A few quick answers/comments:

 

The predicament of the Ice because of climate change is certainly of interest to all four Spirits, and has been instrumental to the Land's actions over the last twenty years. And yes, the Sky's been pretty free with letting the Land use elements of his domain, both with Celestar and Borealis. The Sky and the Land are indeed close (to invoke the Silmarillion, they're like the Manwe/Ulmo bromance in the Valar. ).

 

(As an aside, I recently ran a scenario where Borealis was creating controlled microfissures into the Frost Tomb in key places, in an attempt to cool earth down and halt climate change, with Augury as a safety control to warn him when the fissures needed to be closed. Our heroes, of course, didn't agree with his solution.)

 

Celestar will still be a heavyweight. He'll be pared down somewhat, to maybe a 16-18d6 EB NRM on his primary attack (given the law of doubling per dice, you don't have to shave many dice at the high-end to represent a "depowering". Astral would be about the level of the other Starforce members, who are not especially a high-powered group (they'll receive a minor boost). Removing the powers from Celestar entirely would make things a little tricky for Cryptic in-game, and I'd rather avoid that.

 

I also want to build up Astral/Forceknight VI as a teen romance, because we don't have enough of that in the CU.

 

If I do the book, the relationship of the Four to the rest of the Mystic World and where it fits in will be decided. Steve felt they were from faerie; I'm not adverse to a Briahic connection, but nothing is decided.