Stop Hits

[Duane From RI]

I am not trained in any combat arts. I do know that some of them incorporate maneuvers whereby a defender launches his own attack when an opponent has already launched his. I know that this exists in epee (where first touch counts and you don't have to worry about right-of-way) and that Bruce Lee also emphasized this strategy.

 

My question to those people who game and at the same time know a thing or two about combat:

1) Are stop hits a result of readying an action in response to a move you know is coming?

2) If not, would you advocate adding a martial maneuver element as a house rule to cover these?

3) It occurs to me that Trigger is going to be way to expensive, but is that the right approach?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Stop Hits

 

1. That's one way to do it. I'm sure there are others (such as Trigger, which you mention).

2. In the 5e Ultimate Martial Artist book, there was an option (a heavily stop-signed, no-more-than-that, this-is-probably-a-really-bad-idea-but-hey-it's-your-game option) to add Abort as an element to Strikes. Not sure if that's in 6e.

3. It's a right approach, at least, and probably the most balanced in terms of its utility. There's rarely only one way to do something in a HERO game, though.

[griffinman01]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I don't know any martial arts myself, but I do know a bit about fighting since my brother has taken a number of years of Karate.

1) In real life it's generally a combination of momentum (where you use your opponent's momentum against them) and catching them off-guard (which is timing as well as speed). In game terms you'd do it as either holding an action to anticipate the attack and then using it when you're attacked (similar to how we were discussing the clothesline in another thread), a trigger attack, or as a damage shield as shown in the UMA (pg 131):

 

Example: Counterstrike: HA +6d6, Damage Shield (+½), Continuous (+1), Reduced Endurance (½ END; +¼) (82 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-½), Requires A Successful Attack Roll (-½), Not When Grabbed (-¼). Total cost: 36 points.

 

That example would trigger on any attack until you decide to turn it off but I think that's a bit more than what you were looking for.

2) I don't think you could use a martial maneuver for that because it violates the 'cannot abort to an attack rule' and even if you built a maneuver as per the UMA source book, dodges, blocks, and strikes are considered exclusive meaning you could only do one. So you couldn't design a maneuver that allows you to block and attack or dodge and attack.

3) Trigger would work and the cost would depend on how you want the trigger to work. If it's only when an HTH attack hits then it's +1/4 since it's one defined (or related) set of conditions. The reset (I'm assuming you wouldn't want to keep spending an action to reset it each time) would probably be +1/2 for an automatic reset. That would be a total of +3/4. If you put it to an HTH attack (I'm assuming a +4D6 HTH) then it would cost 23 points (20 active points, +3/4 Trigger, -1/2 HTH attack = 23 points). You can decrease that by putting on other limitations such as "Must be aware of attack" (-1/4) and "Not While Grabbed" (-1/4) which would take it down to 17 points.

 

17 points is pretty reasonable for this kind of maneuver with all things considered so I think this would be an easy way to simulate the ability.

 

EDIT: I just saw that Steve Long stated that you would need to purchase it on the strength which would add to the cost. It would probably be a naked modifier with the same limitations and end up costing roughly the same as the HTH trigger so probably around 30 points for the whole package.

[Bloodstone]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I have done some JKD and fencing, so I'm familiar with the concept.

 

However, what really matters here is what you want to accomplish with it in game.

 

For example, if you just want to interupt a guys attack and hit the guy before he hits you, there's a few ways to do that.

 

However, if you want to interupt his attack and hit him in such a way that it is impossible for him to continue his initial attack well, that's a signifigantly more powerful ability and would probably need to be built differently.

[psyber624]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I have not yet gotten the HMA book yet (though i do plan to at some time.) For more advanced Martial Arts moves you will probably need a source book of that kind to reliably come close to simulating this.

 

Fists of Fuzion is a supplement I used for just such a thing for several years when I didn't know HERO was still around. Its a free supplement to the FUZION rules (which were a sort of HERO Light freebie RPG that came out a while back). While I would HIGHLY recommend getting the HMA if your looking to simulate MA with more accuracy, you could adapt the rules in FoF to substitute till then.

[Greywind]

Re: Stop Hits

 

"Block"

"Dodge"

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Stop Hits

 

If you just want to stop the incoming attack, it's simply a Block.

 

If you want to hit first, it's a readied action.

 

If you want to deal damage and prevent the incoming attack, then this may sound odd but perhaps Missile Reflection with the No Ranged limitation on it would suffice.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stop Hits

 

A block can also be used to hit first - sort of. A block will stop an incoming attack and let you attack first next time (assuming you go on the same or an earlier segment next time). It is a 2 part process, but combat is a flow not a series of freeze frames. The practical effect, using dramatic licence, could be:

 

Nunja (the Holy Assassin) hardens her hand into a knife fist and spears it toward Whirlwind's throat. Whirlwind twists to the left, raising his elbow to deflect the blow, then snaps out his arm, the fist clenched in a hammer blow to Nunja's temple...

 

What has happened is that Nunja attacked (Phase 3, DEX 23) with a killing strike martial maneouvre, Whirlwind aborted his action (from Phase 3, DEX 20) to block (the elbow deflection) then attacked with a martial strike (the hammer blow to the temple) that goes before Nunja because, well, that is what block allows you to do.

 

Very often the basic unmodified combat rules can simulate pretty much anything you want.

[Lucius]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I'd call it Defensive Strike, or any attack with levels on DCV.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I call this a palindromedary tagline

[Greywind]

Re: Stop Hits

 

There's always the Block/Counterstrike option.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I'd go with Hand attack with a trigger on it and the trigger being block. So when you block, then you can fire off the attack. Of course, you may want to keep this option as for a master of the style to keep it unique. Oh and look at trigger carefully, iirc if you buy it at the zero phase option, then you character can't move and use the stop-hit (which might be ok). If you want to move and fire, then it has to have the no time option. And either way, I always buy my triggers with the 1/2 phase option. So he can only use it once per phase.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I'd go with Hand attack with a trigger on it and the trigger being block. So when you block' date=' then you can fire off the attack. Of course, you may want to keep this option as for a master of the style to keep it unique. Oh and look at trigger carefully, iirc if you buy it at the zero phase option, then you character can't move and use the stop-hit (which might be ok). If you want to move and fire, then it has to have the no time option. And either way, I always buy my triggers with the 1/2 phase option. So he can only use it once per phase.[/quote']

 

Odd thought: if two people with triggered attacks are fighting each other, do they keep triggering until one misses or falls over?

[Bloodstone]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Odd thought: if two people with triggered attacks are fighting each other' date=' do they keep triggering until one misses or falls over?[/quote']

 

Make it interesitng and add a "counter strike" damage shield or two into the mix

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Odd thought: if two people with triggered attacks are fighting each other' date=' do they keep triggering until one misses or falls over?[/quote']

 

Not the way I bought it. If used, then its done for that phase.

[gojira]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I'd call it Defensive Strike' date=' or any attack with levels on DCV.[/quote']

 

This might work the best, or it would for me. A stop-thrust, at least in foil, is an attempt to psych your opponent out and get them to stop their attack and defend. In epee, it's an attempt to salvage a point after you've got beat and missed a chance to defend.

 

I both cases, it's really just a strategy for a sport. You're not being stabbed, your losing (or gaining) a point. I don't think most kind of stop thrusts would work in the real world.

 

One example of a "stop-thrust" in the real world is a maneuver like the fight scene in Seven Samurai. There's a scene where the villagers are still gathering samurai to fight for them. The "blade master" is trying to avoid a fight wit one of the punk ronin hanging around. Finally the insults get too much and he agrees to a duel. At the last second, the blade master dodges the punk's blow with a kind of quick jump, and strikes at the same time, dodging his opponent's blow.

 

You might model that with some kind of Dive for Cover, along with a held action or some extra speed or a trigger. But Defensive Strike, along with a huge bucket of Skill Levels to simulate a "blade master," sounds like the easiest and most straight forward to me.

[psyber624]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I personally have an issue with a Trigger assigned to go off when you block. That is allowing you to "abort" to an offensive action and screams abusive to my GM sense... but that's just me.

[Greywind]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Which is why I suggested the "block/counterstrike". That's already there for use as intended.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I know that kempo uses hard parries and hard blocks that use the attackers force against him which I have been trying to model. "Every block is a strike and every strike is a block" is a mantra I heard often when I was still studying. Perhaps, a damage shield that uses the opponents STR modifier for damage.

[Greywind]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Something like that would be a style thing, though, more than anything else.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I personally have an issue with a Trigger assigned to go off when you block. That is allowing you to "abort" to an offensive action and screams abusive to my GM sense... but that's just me.

 

Everyone gets defensive Aborts for free. This is something the character pay for. I've seen lots of builds like that that were not remotely abusive, especially when you consider the cost of Trigger. It depends on the campaign.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I personally have an issue with a Trigger assigned to go off when you block. That is allowing you to "abort" to an offensive action and screams abusive to my GM sense... but that's just me.

 

Oh I can see that. But for me, that is why I feel the half phase reset is reasonable. It only allows one hit. Not like the deadly risposte example in 5thr every single block- OY VEY! And after thinking about what Sean Waters posted, I would rule that the trigger is dependent on the block being sucessful at all. Iow, if I use the block manuever, the trigger is fired but if the block misses, then the trigger is used and wasted.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I know that kempo uses hard parries and hard blocks that use the attackers force against him which I have been trying to model. "Every block is a strike and every strike is a block" is a mantra I heard often when I was still studying. Perhaps' date=' a damage shield that uses the opponents STR modifier for damage.[/quote']

 

Fwiw, I originally built this for the block so hard it hurts.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Everyone gets defensive Aborts for free. This is something the character pay for. I've seen lots of builds like that that were not remotely abusive' date=' especially when you consider the cost of Trigger. It depends on the campaign.[/quote']

 

Forgot to mention that way I posted the original manuever, it costs endurance so if you want it to be more like a martial manuever, then you need to buy red. END 0. Conversely, to make the power less powerful, you could add Increase END, in crease the reset time to a full phase or greater, or even a act. roll.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Which is why I suggested the "block/counterstrike". That's already there for use as intended.

 

But the trigger advantage is better than the block/counterstrike option. It is of course is up to the GM and the type of game.

[Greywind]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I wouldn't say "better". Just "more immediate".