Stop Hits

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I wouldn't say "better". Just "more immediate".

 

I was thinking better because don't you have to worry about same the next phase together to get the advantage of going first from a successful block?

[psyber624]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Aborting to an offensive action, if allowed, really negates the purpose of DEX, (and to a much lesser extent SPD). What does it matter if my DEX is better than yours if you can simply declare that you are aborting your next action so that you can attack faster. I am not saying that it CAN'T be built in a manner that isn't abusive, but seeing something like that instantly gets my guard up. (Also, triggers in themselves are dangerous things. A trigger that can reset instantly can allow you an attack as often as the trigger is used. Also, triggers don't require phases to use so you can potentially get extra attacks in a turn even if they take some time to reset... dangerous little buggers I say...)

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I've done a bit of this in training myself, and seen a wicked demonstration of what I think was a Kung Fu style (it looked very bear inspired, might have been an Animal style) where virtually every block was also a hard strike to a major muscle group or joint on the attacking limb. I think the Trigger option is going to be the most accurate depiction of this sort of stop-strike, whereas the armed combat version is more to slow an opponents advance or interrupt an attack, and I think that Defensive strike is a perfect model for that sort

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Aborting to an offensive action' date=' if allowed, really negates the purpose of DEX, (and to a much lesser extent SPD). What does it matter if my DEX is better than yours if you can simply declare that you are aborting your next action so that you can attack faster. [/quote']

 

This seems to be similar to the comment my friend made that aborting to a strike messes the speed chart. Is allowing a abort on a strike that bad? Dex (well at least in 5thr or earlier editions) isn't going to lose that much value is it? Your still getting the value of your CVs so you still have to be hit. And if the aborted strike doesn't land its still a wasted phase. Lets not forget that the defender can still abort to block or dodge - which does start making a headache to the GM I'll grant. And if I have a higher speed, then I will catch up on you in phases. Now I'm not saying everyone should have this ability either as an abort nor as a trigger but it can be used for a unique manuever to be a nice surprise.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Aborting to an offensive action' date=' if allowed, really negates the purpose of DEX, (and to a much lesser extent SPD). [/quote']

Only if it is something everyone could do. Since you have to spend points (and an "action that takes no time and instantly resets" Trigger can be a substantial amount of points, especially in a Heroic level game) it does not automatically negate DEX or SPD, because who can do it, and how it functions, will be extremely limited.

 

What does it matter if my DEX is better than yours if you can simply declare that you are aborting your next action so that you can attack faster.

I think you are the only one talking about "Aborting to an offensive action" in general. The conversation in general seems to be about aborting to a specific defensive action that would Trigger a purchased offensive action. There is a big difference in the generality you seem to be afraid of and what is actually being discussed. Even if we were talking about the ability to Abort to any offensive action whenever you wanted (Naked Advantage Trigger of some type perhaps?) you are still losing your next action and the ability to Abort for defense. Probably a slightly overpowered ability but I doubt it would be (affordably) game breaking.

 

I am not saying that it CAN'T be built in a manner that isn't abusive' date=' but seeing something like that instantly gets my guard up. (Also, triggers in themselves are dangerous things. A trigger that can reset instantly can allow you an attack as often as the trigger is used. Also, triggers don't require phases to use so you can potentially get extra attacks in a turn even if they take some time to reset... dangerous little buggers I say...)[/quote']

 

Triggers do take time to use (I forget if the default is 1/2 phase or 0-phase action), unless you pay more for them. They also take time to reset unless you pay even more to have them reset instantly. Since Trigger is an Advantage it also means in a game using Active (and to some extent Real) Point Caps the ability will be weaker than an equivalent Power that isn't Triggered. What is the price for a Trigger that Takes no Time and Resets instantly?

[psyber624]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I can see your point about DEX (although I disagree, to an extent.) After double checking the rulebook you are right that they by default take time (I had forgotten about that, thanks) I was under the impression that only the reset took time by default. And I will concede that most of my arguments are about ways that triggers COULD be abused, with this information. I am still not sold on the idea of allowing a trigger to go off on a block. You would essentially be allowing a player to both get the benefits of a block AND attack in one phase, not to mention doing this on an abort. But that is simply an opinion, TETO.

[dmjalund]

Re: Stop Hits

 

the "hard-block" could be simulated using damage shield

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Stop Hits

 

the "hard-block" could be simulated using damage shield

 

Withou a doubt. Fifth ed (to me anyways) complicated damage shield so the trigger method is easier for me to build.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I can see your point about DEX (although I disagree' date=' to an extent.) After double checking the rulebook you are right that they by default take time (I had forgotten about that, thanks) I was under the impression that only the reset took time by default. And I will concede that most of my arguments are about ways that triggers COULD be abused, with this information. I am still not sold on the idea of allowing a trigger to go off on a block. [b']You would essentially be allowing a player to both get the benefits of a block AND attack in one phase, not to mention doing this on an abort[/b]. But that is simply an opinion, TETO.

 

That could be said of Damage Shield as well.

[Greywind]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Not really. Normally a Damage Shield only punishes an attacker. Unless there's another mechanic in play, there's no defense with it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Stop Hits

 

If you Block there is.

[psyber624]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I almost brought up damage shields myself, but was worried about thread derail. As its already off track (so to speak ) I will say that I would not allow a damage shield to go off of a block (personal opinion, NOT saying this is RAW). I would also closely monitor damage shields as well as they can be overly powerful quite easily vs melee opponents, and at the very least your damage shield + your standard melee attack (not counting martial maneuvers and the like) would have to remain under the AP cap.

[Greywind]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I would look at the SFX of the Damage Shield to decide whether or not it goes off on a block.

 

You want to punch the Torch? Yeah, his Damage Shield is going off on a block.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I would look at the SFX of the Damage Shield to decide whether or not it goes off on a block.

 

You want to punch the Torch? Yeah, his Damage Shield is going off on a block.

 

How about the Thing? I can easily see super hard characters having a sumilar effect. Ever punch steel? Well you just punched the man of steel!

[griffinman01]

Re: Stop Hits

 

How about the Thing? I can easily see super hard characters having a sumilar effect. Ever punch steel? Well you just punched the man of steel!

 

The Ultimate Brick source book has something similar with an HKA to simulate breaking your fist on the guy.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I would look at the SFX of the Damage Shield to decide whether or not it goes off on a block.

 

You want to punch the Torch? Yeah, his Damage Shield is going off on a block.

 

If you make this type of ruling then you have to allow for attacks that should be unaffected as well (example: Captain America making a shield-bash attack).

 

from this thread:

 

3u 1) Shield Bash: (Total: 75 Active Cost, 26 Real Cost) Hand-To-Hand Attack +4d6, Personal Immunity (Only To Counter Damage Shield; +1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Does x1 1/2 Knockback (+1/2), Indirect (Any origin, any direction; Only To Counter Damage Shield; +3/4) (60 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) (Real Cost: 20) plus +3 with HTH Combat (15 Active Points) (Real Cost: 6)

[Notes: Up to 20 STR damage can be added with Advantages. Non-movement based Martial Arts and Haymaker bonus DC's add normally. Multiply velocity divisors by 3. Move By adds +1 DC/15". Move Through adds +1 DC/9".] - END=0

[Greywind]

Re: Stop Hits

 

If you make this type of ruling then you have to allow for attacks that should be unaffected as well (example: Captain America making a shield-bash attack).

 

from this thread:

Absolutely. But it is a matter of how the different SFX would interact.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Stop Hits

 

If you make this type of ruling then you have to allow for attacks that should be unaffected as well (example: Captain America making a shield-bash attack).

 

from this thread:

Of course, the RAW gives options for applying a DS to a focus hitting the DS rather than the focuses wielder, and Cap's shield is pretty much an Unbreakable Focus, so this build might not be needed, but it's a creative build nonetheless

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I'm not a huge fan of sfx interaction determining whether something you have paid for works or not. My approach would be that a block would work the same way as a strike: 6.1.321 says that a strike by someone with a damage shield, such as a punch, WILL cause the damage shield to go off unless the damage shield has been bought not to go off (-0 or -1/4) when someone strikes you, or (in my little world) you block a strike. I'd be perfectly happy to suggest to a player that a particular reason for having a DS should be built so as not to go off with some or all strikes and blocks, and then I'd write it down and we would all know what to expect.

[Greywind]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I'd rather look at the characters and see if/why things will or won't, then make a note of how things work between the two of them. Usually being the GM that means it's a burden that's on me. I don't have a problem with it.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Stop Hits

 

I like to actually get what I pay for and having my Damage Shield simple not work sometimes would not sit well with me. You want your DS to not work sometimes versus some SFX? Then build it that way.

[Greywind]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Did you ever look at the sfx interactions that Steve created? I believe it was in the USPDb.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Did you ever look at the sfx interactions that Steve created? I believe it was in the USPDb.

 

It was in The Ultimate Energy Projector​.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stop Hits

 

USPDb? Ultimate Speedster book? If so, no, but I did look at a treatment by Steve of SFX in the Ultimate Blaster (I think it was) and I was a bit disappointed as it did not seem to work.

 

I think that any SFX interaction mechanics would probably have to be on a campaign by campaign basis.

 

Even if we had a decent set of sfx interaction rules, there would always be some situations we had not thought of.

 

My take is that we rely on the RAW, and ignore SFX as a starting point. SFX explain how the power works in game, not mechanically. once we are at the start point, we can use modifiers to make the power more or less useful (and more or less expensive) by using the SFX description to refine our mechanical description.

 

I say that even though, in some cases, you may make a power less useful but not get a cost break: you have applied a -0 limitation. It clearly IS a limitation, but will come up so infrequently that it is no cheaper than the full power. That may seem like semantics, but it has value - you can look at the mechanical description and know how a power works in a given situation.

 

The problem with relying on SFX is that they are necessarily somewhat vague and what two different people think of how they should work will vary, whereas "-0: does not trigger if blocked" is crystal clear to whoever looks at it. It may not have changed the cost, but it does define the power that much better, mechanically.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Stop Hits

 

Not the Ultimate Blaster - the Ultimate Energy Projector.