Fantasy Race Bloat?

[Ragitsu]

In your experience, what's the appropriate number/number-range of fantasy races in the campaigns you've ran or played in? What should GMs be on the lookout for in regards to supplements that introduce new races? Do societies become too unbelievable when there are twenty-six varieties of elves and fourteen kinds of dwarves?

[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Personally, I don't think it comes down to a specific number. Yeah, there is the possibility off having too many races in one area of the game world, but that can stem from the gm not playing up the 'rarity' of those races which are small in number. If the party has, say, a catfolk character in it, and there are few, if any, other catfolk in the area, and he doesn't put some focus on that (having passers-by stop and gawk, little kids point and say 'kitty', merchants try to treat the character according to a well-known stereotype, etc.) even if there is no Social Complication (even in the most cosmopolitan city you will encounter this occasionally) then the race looses it's 'flavor'.

 

That being said, there is also the flip-side: having every new npc encountered being some new, exotic race. Eventually it becomes old-hat, and players no longer focus on any character's race.

 

It boils down to the individual gaming group, imo, and what their personal tastes in the matter are. But the big question to ask when looking at including the race is what niche does it fill, and just how similar are it's abilities to the existing races. Are you including it simply to have another race, or do you think it has a hook that could appeal to at least one player? Keep in mind that most FRPG settings tend to have individual regions set asi cde for each race (however remote they may be) and you either get a landscape of mutlnational confusion, running the risk of not having any truly 'wild' areas, or some races need to be from far-away lands, decreasing their number, and leading back to the start of this post.

[Tasha]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

In your experience' date=' what's the appropriate number/number-range of fantasy races in the campaigns you've ran or played in? What should GMs be on the lookout for in regards to supplements that introduce new races? Do societies become too unbelievable when there are twenty-six varieties of elves and fourteen kinds of dwarves?[/quote']

 

IMHO it's MORE realistic to have many different versions of Dwarves, Elves, Humans, Orcs etc. Cultural and environmental differences would make for wildly different people even of the same Species. (Pet peeve, Dwarves, Elves etc are different Species, not Races.... A race is Drow vs High Elf).

 

It's pretty unlikely that any species that was spread all over the world could manage to keep their language and culture totally the same. Just being apart and dealing with different histories would change that. The only way that language could stay the same is if they had instantaneous communication (AKA Magical Telephones). That would keep the Language the same. ie If Elves had Teleport gates that linked all of their cities, that allowed for free and easy transportation of goods and people to all of the Elven cities. Then you would see the Culture stay similar between the cities.

 

I would recommend looking at the USA and the Cultural differences between San Francisco CA, Dallas Texas, Chicago Illinois, and New York New York. Heck throw in Vancouver Canada and Quebec Canada for more Cultural variety. France is a good place to study for how they are keeping their language more or less free from foreign influences.

 

I guess it bugs me that most fantasy worlds are so monocultural outside Humans. ie All High Elves are the Same, All Wood Elves are the Same, All Mountain Dwarves are the same, etc. It would be interesting to have Human cultures that are influenced by the Old Races, while the Nearby Cities of the Old Races are also being influenced by their Human Neighbors. It's probably too complicated to actually pull off, but it would make for a world that felt more real.

 

Also, I hate that species are "good" or "Evil" by the fact that they were born as that species (ie Drow Elves are all evil, Goblins, Orcs, etc are all Evil because of their species). The best campaign I ever ran had the Orcs being real. They only Disliked humans because the Humans were encroaching on their lands and were killing their people to force the Orcs to relocate (ie Native Americans vs White Settlers).

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

http://www.grey-company.org/Maerdyn/resources/language.html

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

It depends on the kind of game you want/like, really. I've never had any problems with 'fantasy kitchen sink' style games, but I tend not to play up race/species as a theme. In other words, nobody actually cares what species you are, outside of a few jerks who are in a very distinct minority.

[Markdoc]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Given that many of these "races" are apparently interfertile, I'm not sure that race even covers it.

 

That said, the proliferation of "race of the week" was one of the things that drove me away from D&D. My own feeling is that if being a different race doesn't mean that much (and our second-line D&D game has two humans, an orc, an elf, a half-elf, all of whom interact more or less equally) then really having different races is pretty pointless. Make them all humans or make them all orcs, keep the personalities the same, and it wouldn't change the party dynamic at all. From what I have seen so far, it wouldn't change our interaction with NPCs significantly either.

 

My own games have been human-only PCs for many years now, and nobody seems to miss non-human races.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

First off, I have to agree with most of what Tasha said on principle. Practially speaking though it is hard enough for the GM to invent 5 distinct cultures much less 30, so I totally understand the conceit that non-humans tend to be a lot more uniform in disposition. If you can invent multiple cultural identies for various elves and what not, all the better, but that can be a lot of work.

 

In my experience, players want to pick non-humans for one of two reasons. First, the player wants a unique character. Personally I think that is a lazy reason, because if you want a character who looks unusual or has a culturally interesting background, then give them Distinctive Features and invent an interesting culture to come from. Humans are a pretty diverse group. This also encourages the player to better define the character which is always good for an RPG.

 

They second reaons to play non-humans is that they frequently get nifty abilities, like Nightvision or some forms of Life Support or natural weaponry. If you are using Characteristic Maxima, then nonhumans can more easily be stronger or quicker too. That is kind of a mercenary way to build a character, but understandable. If you want to avoid that kind of thinking, you can get around some of it by not giving CHA Maxima breaks for non-humans and allowing players to pick Talents or low-level persistant magic abilities. Or tack on Complications to go with those cool abilities so that being an elf or a half-troll doesn't make you automatically more kick-a$$ than the humans in the group.

[Lethosos]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Rules-wise, variant races are merely basic stats with a minor alteration to them, IMO. Or at least that's how I see things with the various races beyond the eight in Eight Sages. For example, there's only one difference between the Dragon-kin and, say, a civilization of snake-men that rule an Ageypt-like society. Both are serpentine, and could, if inclined to do so, "hybridize" without any problems whatsoever. The only question is what their "blessing" is from their deities, so to speak.

 

I see no issue if someone wants to be unique, I just request that they use a basic template of one of the main races and don't be absurd with the alterations. Too many racial offshoots causes too many issues, and I'd rather not make further paperwork than neccesary.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Whatever works!

[Orion]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

My preference is 1 race - humans. While there may or may not be non-human races out there, they ain't PCs. If a player is capable of playing a different race, I may allow either dwarf or elf (and they must be the Tolkien versions), but not both. And if this is allowed, then interaction with that race will be a major part of the campaign. Gnomes and halflings do not exist, and neither do orcs and monsters of good alignment. I'll play in another campaign that does any of these things, but I won't run them as a GM.

 

I never have valley, high, dark, wood, etc., elves. There are just elves. I don't see a need for different stat blocks for each area of settlement, as there is too much overlap. Sure, there may be some minor differences in body types, but it is the cultural differences that matter. And for the average human, they can't tell the difference between the different elves anyway, because they have only ever met one of them. I also try to limit the number of human cultures the players can come from. Everyone is from the local dominant culture - no bringing a samurai to a Viking game.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I can name three scaly races off the top of my head: Lizardfolk, Troglodytes, and Dragonborn.

[Enforcer84]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

What about the snake men? Yuan-ti?

And...why are we naming them?

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Practially speaking though it is hard enough for the GM to invent 5 distinct cultures much less 30' date=' [/quote']

 

I do it the easy way ... I separate race and culture, so I can have 30 races and still only 5 cultures, based on nationality and such. So, for example, an elf and a dwarf both from nation A will have more in common than an elf from nation A and an elf from nation B.

[Cancer]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

All too often, race bloat is one aspect of power creep in published materials. The new stuff has to be cooler than the old stuff or the powergamers won't have a reason to buy it.

[The Main Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

For me, race bloat happens in the following ways: when the presence of a new race fundamentally changes the setting despite the logical conclusion that they always existed; when a new race fills a storytelling or setting niche already fulfilled by a previously established race (so much setting, so little planet); or when a new race only seems to exist to upstage other races or else is there only for "kewl" factor. That said, I think it also depends on the established setting as well as the tone and style of the campaign. If it leans more towards beer and pretzels, then fantasy kitchen sink doesn't hurt anyone. If it is something to take more seriously, then there should be more focus on the cohesion of the setting.

 

There are and have been many human cultures, but they have one thing in common: they are Homo Sapiens one and all. Earlier and separate species of human (Ergaster, Erectus, Habilis, Neanderthal, etc) did in fact coexist (and some even with Sapiens), but they weren't globalized as a species - only Sapiens got to achieve this. So when a fantasy setting has dozens and dozens of outright different sentient species, it strains the imagination to think that they all manage to coexist. Maybe a few of them could manage, but dozens and dozens of different species? I think not. Again, I say this in the spirit of creating a coherent and believable setting. If one is not concerned with such details (and not every campaign needs to be), then it doesn't matter how many races there are.

 

All that said, I have a rather flipped opinion when it comes to space operas and races. I find it very difficult to believe such settings could ever truly get bloated in terms of races so much as political powers.

[Burrito Boy]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

What about the snake men? Yuan-ti?

And...why are we naming them?

 

"The only good serpent man is a dead serpent man."--King Kull

[Lucius]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

It's pretty unlikely that any species that was spread all over the world could manage to keep their language and culture totally the same. Just being apart and dealing with different histories would change that. The only way that language could stay the same is if they had instantaneous communication (AKA Magical Telephones).

 

Not necessarily.

 

Suppose for example one continent is discovered and opened to colonization from another, and Elves and Humans settle it. Then for whatever reason the new land is cut off for a thousand years.

 

When contact is re-established, the Humans will not speak a mutually intelligible language and their culture is likely to be very different. But when Elves from the new continent meet Elves from the old continent, it's "Hi big brother. How's mom?" Because for them, it's been less than one lifteime. But for the Humans, it's been many generations.

 

Similarly, if a group were widely spread but few in number and maintained close ties - a "diaspora" situation - they might manage to retain some degree of unity in language, religion, and culture.

 

But yes, in many cases it's hard to justify what I've heard called a "monoculture." If Goblins have short lifespans, breed quickly, are numerous, and are widely spread, they will almost inevitably have numerous cultures and languages, unless some other fantastic element is at play such as a God or pantheon actually speaking to them frequently and always speaking in their ancient tongue, or their culture is actually encoded in them genetically (or in some fasion equivalent to genetics.)

 

That would keep the Language the same. ie If Elves had Teleport gates that linked all of their cities' date=' that allowed for free and easy transportation of goods and people to all of the Elven cities. Then you would see the Culture stay similar between the cities.[/quote']

 

I have to admit, that's a possible factor I hadn't considered.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

fantastic palindromedary at play

[Steve]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Speed of cultural drift tied to lifespan is definitely a major thing to look at in creating a sentient species. Elves with millenial lives would drift apart more slowly than goblins with lifespans of twenty years.

 

Of course, longer-lived species could also play puppet master to those with shorter lifespans. Or a god could do the same thing.

 

When gods are thrown into the mix, cultures could be more static or drift apart even faster, especially if different gods claim different species or groups.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

So when a fantasy setting has dozens and dozens of outright different sentient species' date=' it strains the imagination to think that they all manage to coexist. Maybe a few of them could manage, but dozens and dozens of different species? I think not. [/quote']

 

I dunno ... once you accept things like magic as existing, it seems weird to fuss over how many species there are.

[The Main Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I dunno ... once you accept things like magic as existing' date=' it seems weird to fuss over how many species there are.[/quote']

I don't believe the existence of magic is an automatic free pass to dismiss believability, cohesion, or logic in a setting that strives for such qualities. Again, I have no problem with a setting lacking those qualities if it is meant to be that way from the start.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Sub Species of , I never had that problem. Occassionally we altered a Player Character Race, but rarely added new races.

 

Standard Sub Species or Major Races is common, but nothing outside Half-Elves/Orcs/Ogres etcs...

 

QM

[Portland Barbie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

. . . When gods are thrown into the mix' date=' cultures could be more static or drift apart even faster, especially if different gods claim different species or groups.[/quote']

 

Take a look at the old TSR Hollow World Setting . . . the "gods" (Immortals) created the realm as a "preservation" of cultures/creatures/races that they didn't want to die off or evolve/merge with others culturally. Yes, there was still some minor cultural alterations after various lengths of time due to interactions with other cultures, but part of the setting was the fact that very dissimilar cultures, or those that would be extremely antagonistic to each other were placed in separate ares, and they tended to be cut off from others around them. Add to that the magic that was used to allow the inner world to support life and to prevent it's discovery/destruction also played a part in preventing the cultures from advancing on their own, to become more savvy technologically, socially, or even magically . . . and the most extreme example was when the "gods" reached out and saved the Empire/Island of Alphatia from complete destruction by relocating it to the Hollow World.

[bluesguy]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I have played in High Fantasy games where their are every known race and culture all pretty much 'slammed together'. My experience is that many new players want to play elves, dwarves, and a few other species because they are 'cool', have interesting abilities or cultural/species quirks. I have also seen this with new GMs as well. I know my first campaign had more than a few species that just didn't make sense. There were also cultures (human and otherwise) that were too close together and didn't make sense.

 

I like playing humans and I have never wanted to play another race. In fact I have only played one other species - gnome fighter/illusionist. He didn't like 'big people' (bordered on bigotry). His favorite thing to do was go find a roof near a bar and when people came out drunk he would create an illusion of a pink dragon flying by spewing puce colored vomit. He thought that was a riot.

 

 

One of the things I like about the Valdorian Age is that humans are the predominate hominid species. There rumors of 'dwarves' and a few gnomes and halflings around but they are rare. As for elves they are the Drindrish and everyone is glad to be rid of them because they left the entire area many years ago.

 

Everyone in the party is human, except for one dwarf. He gets a fair amount of hassle when he goes into new areas because people don't have a clue what he is. And he doesn't even know where he came from because he has amnesia . When people asked "Can I play an elf?" I would tell them that elves are called Drindrish in this world and no one has seen one in a long time. And if one was found they would be killed pretty much on the spot. The Drindrish enslaved humanity for a long time in the Valdorian Age.

[Old Man]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

For me, Fantasy Race Bloat is achieved when the bar stops looking like the Prancing Pony and starts looking like the Mos Eisley Cantina.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I have played in High Fantasy games where their are every known race and culture all pretty much 'slammed together'. My experience is that many new players want to play elves, dwarves, and a few other species because they are 'cool', have interesting abilities or cultural/species quirks. I have also seen this with new GMs as well. I know my first campaign had more than a few species that just didn't make sense. There were also cultures (human and otherwise) that were too close together and didn't make sense.

 

I like playing humans and I have never wanted to play another race. In fact I have only played one other species - gnome fighter/illusionist. He didn't like 'big people' (bordered on bigotry). His favorite thing to do was go find a roof near a bar and when people came out drunk he would create an illusion of a pink dragon flying by spewing puce colored vomit. He thought that was a riot.

 

 

One of the things I like about the Valdorian Age is that humans are the predominate hominid species. There rumors of 'dwarves' and a few gnomes and halflings around but they are rare. As for elves they are the Drindrish and everyone is glad to be rid of them because they left the entire area many years ago.

 

Everyone in the party is human, except for one dwarf. He gets a fair amount of hassle when he goes into new areas because people don't have a clue what he is. And he doesn't even know where he came from because he has amnesia . When people asked "Can I play an elf?" I would tell them that elves are called Drindrish in this world and no one has seen one in a long time. And if one was found they would be killed pretty much on the spot. The Drindrish enslaved humanity for a long time in the Valdorian Age.

 

Thank you for making sure I'll never set foot in a Valdorian Age setting.