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Fantasy Race Bloat?


Ragitsu

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Those are reasonable preferences and I sympathize with them. Mind you, a Vanir is generally tall, muscular, and fair-skinned, while a Zamoran is short, dark, and wiry, so physical differences aren't completely absent. Not at all to the same degree as humans and cat-people, of course, and that degree makes all the difference for some.

 

At nearly the opposite end of the fantasy race spectrum from Hyboria is the classic RPG world of Talislanta. There are no humans there in the real-world sense, nor any of the stock literary or mythic nonhumans (although there are a few Talislantan species who occupy similar ecological niches to elves and dwarves, for example). What Talislanta does have is a dizzyingly wide array of sapient species with their own distinct physical appearances, racial powers, and skill propensities. Almost all of them are presented as potential Player Characters.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

That said' date=' I do prefer fantasy PC races to be humanoid and mammalian. Dwarves and (gag) elves are fine. Felines and erqidlit, okay. Thri-kreen and aarakocra start to bother me.[/quote']

 

Those are pretty similar to my preferences (though my favorite race is the awesomely artificial Warforged), but I also take the stance that, if someone else wants to play an elf, or a thri-kreen, or an aarakocra, well, that's their business, not mine.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Those are pretty similar to my preferences (though my favorite race is the awesomely artificial Warforged)' date=' but I also take the stance that, if someone else wants to play an elf, or a thri-kreen, or an aarakocra, well, that's their business, not mine.[/quote']

 

Oddly enough, I would have no problem with someone wanting to play a construct in my game (in fact, it's already happened twice). I had to think about why this is so for a minute, and came to the conclusion that it's because it doesn't come with any cultural/racial baggage of its own, but would reflect whatever society it was created in. In other words, a construct is a cultural artifact - much like a person. It doesn't have broader implications.

 

Because at core, this is my objection. As a GM, I can't say "if someone else wants to play an elf, or a thri-kreen, or an aarakocra, well, that's their business, not mine". It is my business, because I have to put together a species and one (or more) cultures, explain how it interacts with other species, etc. Introducing a new sentient life form has significant consequences for the game world. I'd no more accept a player who wanted an aarakocra race so that he could play one, than I'd accept a player who insisted on me adding a pseudo-japanese culture so that he could play a samurai*.

 

As a player, I'm perfectly happy to go with whatever: our current main D&D group has no humans at all in it (well, we still have one kind-of human, but she's turning into a dragon, and already has wings, claws and scales, so I'm not sure that counts anymore ...). But that's a game world where all races are pretty much humans in fursuits and nobody bothers about that aspect. In that game, an Orc holding down a senior position on the town council is a bit unusual, but no more than that, and his flirting with the female elf was considered a bit pushy, but no more.

 

Cheers, Mark

 

* and I've encountered that player. :P

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

 

Because at core, this is my objection. As a GM, I can't say "if someone else wants to play an elf, or a thri-kreen, or an aarakocra, well, that's their business, not mine".

 

I do it all the time, it's not a big deal. Of course, I apparently do something taboo and completely decouple species from culture and behavior, as stated above. There's no elven culture, or dwarven culture, or thri-kreen culture, etc. Race is just genetics. You have nations with cultures, and whatever races are there, are there, and that's their culture ... and, of course, not everybody born into a culture embraces that culture, anyway. So, at most, I have to deal with maybe a half-dozen major cultures, no matter how many species are running around the continent.

 

I also believe that there is only one bad reason to play a character, and that's spoiling the game for everybody else. Anything else I consider a valid reason, whether it's 'I have cool powers' or 'I look awesome' or 'I want to turn this stereotype on its head' or anything else. So long as it's not ruining the game for anybody else, whether by being broken or by the player being disruptive, I keep my hands off it.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

From the posted comments, it appears to me most people who want to limit PC races do so because too many races make things too complicated. To a lesser extent, races that are too far from human can't be played or integrated easily because they are too alien.

 

But what about those "evil" races/cultures? Clearly they are there in the source material (I have heard some unkind things said about Howard and Tolkien concerning bigotry), and the original D&D followed that pretty closely. While I understand how unlikely it is that an entire race could be morally corrupt (unless deities get involved in which case anything goes), it does let the GM paint stories in black and white which can be quite satisfying. Complex stories with political intrigue and shades of grey make for excellent role playing, but gaming is also about escapism and having some kind of moral certainty can be a relief from reality.

 

So is an evil or completely alien race that allows for indiscriminate killing necessarily a bad thing? Maybe not realistic, but this is fantasy after all.

 

For the record, I prefer games dominated by humans and the idea that few people are completely good or completely evil, but I have certainly had fun with other settings.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I don't believe in the concept of anything being 'inherently evil' (or 'inherently anything', really), so I can't really answer that question. I can't recall any time post-high school that I paid the idea of 'always Chaotic Evil' any heed whatsoever, and it's a thing I often turn on its head. Come across an elf fighting an orc? Guess which one's the brutal assassin on a mission to kill the benevolent king? If you said 'the orc', you're probably wrong. If my games have a theme, it's about individuality and self-determination. Any sapient being chooses its own paths in life; even a demon can change its ways, if properly motivated.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

We seem to have developed axes of race and culture.

 

At one extreme, race pretty much determines culture, so all Elves come from a monolithic cultural background just because they are Elves.

 

At the other extreme, culture is completely separate from race, so an Elf and a Man from the same city have an identical cultural background.

 

It reminds me of a Nature vs. Nurture argument.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

How do you define "Too Close together"? Heck' date=' if you look at history cities separated by less than a hundred miles have had radically different cultures. Look at Europe and how close everything is together and how many different cultures and languages sprung up there.[/quote']

 

Well those European cities/city states/nations were pretty much all variations of feudal societies. There were at least three languages with a very common root language (French, Spanish, and Italian). At one point in their history they all shared a common religion, theology & doctrine. Later they shared a common religion even if their theology & doctrine changed.

 

Because of the closeness of these places and the decent transportation/communication (see below in a moment) a more homogeneous culture emerged.

 

There were a ton of very different Native American Tribes when the settlers first arrived. Most of those had very different languages and cultures.

 

That is true. I would guess that if you compared Native American Tribes in the north east vs. plains vs. Southwestern portions of the US you would find very different cultures. I lived in New Mexico and got to know the three predominate Native American cultures and they are all different. But if you look at the size of NM & Arizona where Navajo, Zuni and Pueblo that is a lot of 'ground to cover' - on foot. In Europe people had pack animals - horses, mules, oxen and wheeled vehicles. And the ability to travel & communicate allowed for a more homogeneous set of cultures in Europe. But in the new world that wasn't as true.

 

Fantasy races are a great way to explore different cultures in a fairly safe way without seeming to be racist. SciFi Races are similar in this fashion.

 

That is an interesting 'justification' for having a bunch of different 'species' in a campaign. In my campaign we explore 'race' (and racism) because there are clashes of culture between Valdorians, Abyzinians, and Cynthians. They all have their distinct cultures. They are all human.

 

But I digress (and it was fun). You asked

How do you define "Too Close together"?

 

My simple answer is that if I was playing in a campaign world where I could find 6 to 12 distinct species/races (within species) all living within an easy month's travel of each other to be 'too close together'. I don't think they would be very distinct. I think the cultures would evolve into a much more homogeneous culture with 'quirks' between each one.

 

As for multiple intelligent species in the same area - I think the competition for resources would lead to many of those species being wiped out. I would think intelligent species want to preserve themselves and will do whatever is necessary to do that. I would think this would be doubly so if it turns out that two intelligent species can not interbred.

 

So if I was playing an a world roughly the size of Western Europe and there were humans, elves (multiple types), halflings, gnomes, orcs, serpent/lizard people, goblins, dwarves, giants, gnolls, hobgoblins, and ogres - each with very distinct cultures I would wonder if the GM just kept tossing in 'species/races' because they seemed cool without thinking about how it would all work together.

 

Finally I should mention that my first campaign world suffered from my lack of thought on how all the 'species/races' in that world could actually survive.

 

This is what works for me and YMMV

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

We seem to have developed axes of race and culture.

 

At one extreme, race pretty much determines culture, so all Elves come from a monolithic cultural background just because they are Elves.

 

At the other extreme, culture is completely separate from race, so an Elf and a Man from the same city have an identical cultural background.

 

It reminds me of a Nature vs. Nurture argument.

 

Naturally the sweet spot is probably somewhere in the middle. Probably the best example I can think of for a campaign setting where race and culture are mostly unrelated is Shadowrun. It's kind of cheating since it's modern, but it's the best example I can think of.

 

To be fair I think the idea of race=culture comes from original sources, specifically Middle-Earth, where the Elves, Dwarves, and Men kept to themselves, had their own languages, dress, and customs, and as often as not were openly hostile to one another. Even Shadowrun has race-specific enclaves.

 

 

::waves::

 

Amateur.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

So how do all of you feel about a game like Gamma World' date=' which essentially has an unlimited number of character "races" and in which even some humans have special powers?[/quote']

 

I don't have a problem with it. GW's about the only 'post-apoc' game I'd ever try, just because it's not the 'grueling trial of survival' kind of thing. It's actually an adventure game.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

I don't really see it that way. Such beings are just extradimensional entities; as I stated at the end of the post' date=' even they can change their ways if they choose to (they just usually don't).[/quote']

 

This is system dependent. In D&D, for instance, they very much are concentrated evil as a philosophy made tangible. Sure, they might be able to become Good aligned, but this is even rarer than a certain drow ranger despising his culture's evil ways (not inherently the fabric of one's being, but merely cultural). You can imagine that it's a wee bit more difficult when you don't even feel the desire to change your ways at all.

 

It should be noted that a certain succubus that became a paladin still retained her Evil subtype.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

So how do all of you feel about a game like Gamma World' date=' which essentially has an unlimited number of character "races" and in which even some humans have special powers?[/quote']

 

There's a big difference between a "race" and a race. With a plot device like magic you can generate endless unique phenotypes, that do not constitute breeding populations. That's what the original meaning of the word "monster" was you know. Two headed chicken, bald goat, albino yak, or chimera and Melusine. Monsters were originally sui generis. For gaming purposes as well in mythology it's perfectly possible for a creature to have nothing else in the world like it. The curse of a whimsical god, random magical influence on a pregnant female, tinkering wizard, extradimensional summoning, materialized nightmare, shapeshifting oops. Any of them can create a single creature or a handful, just enough for the PC group to encounter them.

 

As for evil races, I have no problem with assigning traits like bully, a violent temper, sadistic, or a paranoid hatred of any creature that doesn't look them to a species template as a standard genetic trait. Individuals may buy off the traits, but the default is something pretty hard to get along with.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Its been touched on a couple of times in this thread already, but I think it's worth noting that in most Fantasy settings each race (species) usually has their own God or Gods. Now assuming that these Gods are super powered beings and in most cases interact with the mortal realms (whether directly or indirectly such as granting spells and prayers, etc...) , then a race's survival and growth, no matter how much competition or how close they are to other intelligent races, could easily be in the hands of these higher powers. Orc's and Goblins living in the same mountain ranges haven't wiped each other out over the centuries? Maybe their gods have struck a deal? Maybe their gods are friends and "keep the balance" through direct and indirect means?

 

And maybe in some setting this means that some races are all "evil". The race was created by an evil god and as such they are all inherently evil. Maybe any member of that race that tries to change and "be good" would be smiteed from above or be stricken with a horrible disease and die?

 

The fact of the matter is, in any fantasy setting where you have Gods that directly and indirectly muddle in the affairs of the races and most if not all of those races were created by the gods (so they feel protective of them), then you have to expect that the gods would mess with things to keep their creations alive (in the broad sense). In fact, in these types of setting, the only way any race should ever have the chance of going extinct is if their god/creator is killed so he/she/it can no longer protect them (or grant prayers to the loyal priests). Then the race would be on its own against all the other races that still have their own gods protecting them.

 

Of course, if another God were to "adopt" this now "godless" race, then maybe they could survive for a bit longer.

 

And as another thought, I guess the number of races in a fantasy setting might also depend on what a god is in that setting, and if it is possible to become a God by gaining enough power. If it is possible to become a god through sheer magical/mystical power, then is it also possible to create your own race of followers? So all the "new" races popping up, could be explained by the number of mortals who gather enough power to become gods themselves then create a race of followers to worship them and carry out their commands.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Its been touched on a couple of times in this thread already, but I think it's worth noting that in most Fantasy settings each race (species) usually has their own God or Gods. Now assuming that these Gods are super powered beings and in most cases interact with the mortal realms (whether directly or indirectly such as granting spells and prayers, etc...) , then a race's survival and growth, no matter how much competition or how close they are to other intelligent races, could easily be in the hands of these higher powers. Orc's and Goblins living in the same mountain ranges haven't wiped each other out over the centuries? Maybe their gods have struck a deal? Maybe their gods are friends and "keep the balance" through direct and indirect means?

 

And maybe in some setting this means that some races are all "evil". The race was created by an evil god and as such they are all inherently evil. Maybe any member of that race that tries to change and "be good" would be smiteed from above or be stricken with a horrible disease and die?

 

The fact of the matter is, in any fantasy setting where you have Gods that directly and indirectly muddle in the affairs of the races and most if not all of those races were created by the gods (so they feel protective of them), then you have to expect that the gods would mess with things to keep their creations alive (in the broad sense). In fact, in these types of setting, the only way any race should ever have the chance of going extinct is if their god/creator is killed so he/she/it can no longer protect them (or grant prayers to the loyal priests). Then the race would be on its own against all the other races that still have their own gods protecting them.

 

Of course, if another God were to "adopt" this now "godless" race, then maybe they could survive for a bit longer.

 

And as another thought, I guess the number of races in a fantasy setting might also depend on what a god is in that setting, and if it is possible to become a God by gaining enough power. If it is possible to become a god through sheer magical/mystical power, then is it also possible to create your own race of followers? So all the "new" races popping up, could be explained by the number of mortals who gather enough power to become gods themselves then create a race of followers to worship them and carry out their commands.

 

Good points in regards to theological implications that relate to race/species in fantasy settings, mallet.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

This is system dependent. In D&D' date=' for instance, they very much are concentrated evil as a philosophy made tangible. Sure, they [i']might[/i] be able to become Good aligned, but this is even rarer than a certain drow ranger despising his culture's evil ways (not inherently the fabric of one's being, but merely cultural). You can imagine that it's a wee bit more difficult when you don't even feel the desire to change your ways at all.

 

It should be noted that a certain succubus that became a paladin still retained her Evil subtype.

 

That proves my point, though. To use the D&D terms, having the Evil (or Good, or Lawful, or Chaotic) subtype has no effect whatsoever on a creature's behavior. In Hero terms, a creature designated as a demon can have any Psych Lims deemed appropriate by the GM. Yes, it would be a very rare occurance; I never stated otherwise. But it is possible; even the 3e Monster Manual stated that even creatures designated as an 'always X' alignment would have one-in-a-million exceptions.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

That proves my point' date=' though. To use the D&D terms, having the Evil (or Good, or Lawful, or Chaotic) subtype has no effect whatsoever on a creature's behavior. In Hero terms, a creature designated as a demon can have any Psych Lims deemed appropriate by the GM. Yes, it would be a very rare occurance; I never stated otherwise. But it is possible; even the 3e Monster Manual stated that even creatures designated as an 'always X' alignment would have one-in-a-million exceptions.[/quote']

 

Okay, so the race is 99.99999% evil then, dramatically and interesting story appropriate exceptions aside. Of course, you can change race so that it's a thin coat of paint, but then you run into the dwarf/elf problem.

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Re: Fantasy Race Bloat?

 

Okay' date=' so the race is 99.99999% evil then, dramatically and interesting story appropriate exceptions aside. Of course, you can change race so that it's a thin coat of paint, but then you run into the dwarf/elf problem.[/quote']

 

Which may or not be a problem, depending on one's perspective and preferences.

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