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"Can normally reach" Limitation


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Some powers/abilities, especially in Dark Champions, have some variation of the "Can normally reach" limitation.

 

My question to Herodom is what, exactly does this entail?

 

The way I look at it is if, for example, I have a Teleport (which is normally what this Lim is applied to) that has enough range to reach the top of the building behind me as long as my character could logically get there then he can poof to the roof top.

 

Now, thing is, should I be taking into account things like locked doors, maybe "no roof access" stairs, etc? What about the feasibility of climbing the outside of the building?

 

Or should this be a Lim that's entirely in the hands of the GM on whether or not each location fits within the Lims constraints?

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

Can you cite a page number with an example for 5e Dark Champions?

 

The only modifier I am familiar with that matches that description is "Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4)" which is normally only applicable to Teleportation. I often use the combination to represent one aspect of "superspeed" used by characters like Flash & Superman.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

Can you cite a page number with an example for 5e Dark Champions?

 

Disappearing Act, p130, with the specific limitation being Can Only Teleport To Places Character Could Normally Go (-1/2)

 

Basically, if you can't Run/Jump/Climb your way there, you can't teleport to it.

 

So even if you have 12" of Teleport, you can't use it to just port straight up into the air in the middle of an empty field.

 

But you COULD teleport to the top of a 12" tall tree or onto a roof of a building of similar stature that has a fire escape. In both instances you could hypothetically get there using your otherwise normal modes of movement.

 

It's meant to be used as the Ninja Vanish/Batman "I hate when he does that" gone in the blink of an eye type effect.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

Thanks for the reference Bloodstone.

 

What I'm curious about, is do you have to take in account locked doors, keypad access etc. Or, like some of the higher end apartment buildings where you have to be buzzed in, could you use your "Ninja Vanish" to get there. I mean you *could*, hypothetically, get there . . . but there are/would be obstacles to doing so. So would it negate your ability/power?

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

What I'm curious about' date=' is do you have to take in account locked doors, keypad access etc. Or, like some of the higher end apartment buildings where you have to be buzzed in, could you use your "Ninja Vanish" to get there. I mean you *could*, hypothetically, get there . . . but there are/would be obstacles to doing so. So would it negate your ability/power?[/quote']

 

It really depends on the character, the GM, and the situation, IMO. Generally speaking, I'd say that if the character could bypass the obstacles in a negligible amount of time, using only means under his own control, then he could still use the ability. If not, he couldn't.

 

So for example, if he has to be "buzzed in," then it wouldn't work. If an intervening door was locked, it generally wouldn't work, because even if he could unlock it, it would take time to do so. But even that could depend on the circumstances; maybe the GM would rule that a character with Lockpicking 20- trying to get past an extremely simple door lock could use his ability (or could with a successful Lockpicking roll at -10 or some such).

 

I don't think this is a question with a clear-cut yes/no answer. It depends on the exact factors involved. :)

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

What I'm curious about' date=' is do you have to take in account locked doors, keypad access etc. Or, like some of the higher end apartment buildings where you have to be buzzed in, could you use your "Ninja Vanish" to get there. I mean you *could*, hypothetically, get there . . . but there are/would be obstacles to doing so. So would it negate your ability/power?[/quote']

 

That's one of the example in the book actually...

 

Yes, you should take into account such things. Remember, the power also has Must Pas Through Interveening Space and a few other lims to restrict it's effect.

 

Locked doors can block the power, but if you have Lockpicking the GM might allow the character to instantly bypass those locked doors if you can make a fairly difficult role.

 

Keep in mind, this is a dramatic effect power for Dark Champions characters. You're not supposed to use it as a normal means of transportation or as a way to quickly get through locked doors without having to take the (sometimes considerable) time that it would take to pick locks.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

Huh, seems I'm getting the same responses I'd thought about.

 

And that's pretty much "It's situational/up to the GM". Which is all good but I was kind of hoping for a more "And thus it shall be done thusly".

 

Silly me, I forget it was Hero and it just doesn't work that way. :)

 

Thanks folks.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

I'd have to say that, as a -1/2 limitation, I would interpret this as being "not overly restrictive". Given that, I'd be inclined to err on the side of the ability being functional. At a -1 level, roughly half the areas the character would want to reach should be inaccessible. -1/2, to me, means the power should function considerably more often than it would fail.

 

Given the SFX, I'd also be inclined to say that a character with Climbing, Swinging, etc. could get to the roof using the fire escape, the walls, etc. So Batman would not be prevented by the fact there are no stairs to access the roof, for example, or locked doors in between. If his only route would have to pass through a locked door, I'd say he gets that far before being "blocked", and then has the choice to pick the lock.

 

The discussion of the "lockpick 20-" and a very simple lock seems to highlight a need for rules equivalent to "casual STR" and "casual power use" for skills. Maybe that just means determining the roll required to move the "open lock" skill down the time chart to a step below half phase. If he makes that roll, opening the lock is trivially easy and does not disrupt his movement. If not, it delays him.

 

Actually, I like the idea that the level of success on the roll determines the time it takes - you get the fastest time your roll would permit.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

I'd have to say that' date=' as a -1/2 limitation, I would interpret this as being "not overly restrictive". Given that, I'd be inclined to err on the side of the ability being functional. At a -1 level, roughly half the areas the character would want to reach should be inaccessible. -1/2, to me, means the power should function considerably more often than it would fail.[/quote']

 

It's not the only restriction on the power though. The power also has Must Pass Through Interveening Space, which would normally block teleportation through walls or closed doors.

 

Allowing them to try the lockpicking is actually actually suggested in the write up of the power, though at a -3 to the roll.

 

Still quite a generous option all things considered...

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

Thanks for the reference Bloodstone.

 

What I'm curious about, is do you have to take in account locked doors, keypad access etc. Or, like some of the higher end apartment buildings where you have to be buzzed in, could you use your "Ninja Vanish" to get there. I mean you *could*, hypothetically, get there . . . but there are/would be obstacles to doing so. So would it negate your ability/power?

 

The version I'm familiar with explains that yes, typically things like locked doors would prevent the power from working, but the GM may allow a penalized Lockpicking (or other appropriate skill) check to do it in mid-action (for the 'Vanishing Teleport' power, specifically).

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

::nods:: It's been a while since I've read the description. (Been out of action for a bit) . .

 

I wasn't sure if the power, specifically, allowed for the/a roll (if appropriate) during the move or if it was something the GM had to determine. (Although it's all based on what the GM will allow in the end . . )

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

I would also consider the sfx here as well. What you are basically doing here is using one power (teleport) to represent an ability that while not strictly a teleport functions mechanically in game in a similar fashion. So a speedster using this rule might have a different set of restrictions than Batman, who might have different restrictions than someone else (We let our speedster do the lock pick, since he can do it REALLY fast and even bought skill levels to counteract the "doing things faster" penalty. But he didn't buy flight, in contact with a surface so getting up to the top of a cliff isn't possible for him. Batman can use his grapple to access the high areas as part of this power, but we rule that any lock would take him too long to pick to be effectively a "teleport" so he doesn't get to go through locked doors, etc.)

 

Both these examples would have the same limitation, at the same value, but actually represent different restrictions to the person using it.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

I would also consider the sfx here as well. What you are basically doing here is using one power (teleport) to represent an ability that while not strictly a teleport functions mechanically in game in a similar fashion. So a speedster using this rule might have a different set of restrictions than Batman, who might have different restrictions than someone else (We let our speedster do the lock pick, since he can do it REALLY fast and even bought skill levels to counteract the "doing things faster" penalty. But he didn't buy flight, in contact with a surface so getting up to the top of a cliff isn't possible for him. Batman can use his grapple to access the high areas as part of this power, but we rule that any lock would take him too long to pick to be effectively a "teleport" so he doesn't get to go through locked doors, etc.)

 

Both these examples would have the same limitation, at the same value, but actually represent different restrictions to the person using it.

 

I get what you saying but (there always is one) if you purchase, in this case Vanishing Teleport, you shouldn't need to have any other type of movement power to let it work.

 

And none of your restrictions to the two heroes make sense to me.

 

In your above example, you're speedster shouldn't need "flight in contact with a surface" to use his Vanishing Teleport because he should be "fast" enough to zip around the building, up the fire escape and onto the roof. Or, if no fire escape, then into the building and then up the stairs and onto the roof. If there was a locked door in the way, he could easily deal with it thanks to fore thought on the players part and the Lockpicking skill with the +levels for "really fast".

 

With your Batman example, why would batman need lock picking if he could just use his grapple to get to the top of the roof and thereby bypass any locked door that might be in the way?

 

In any case, if I take the power again, I'll just talk it over with the GM and see what he says on the matter. He'll probably rule it as "situational" so sometimes it'll work and sometimes it won't. Which is cool . . that's what limitations are for. :D

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

I had honestly never really noticed this limitation before (and I own the book it's in).

 

In my 5e version of Flash I used a Custom Limitation (and a badly worded one at that) to represent a version of this:

 

3u 4) Faster than...: Teleportation 8", No Relative Velocity, x2 Increased Mass, x4 Noncombat, Invisible to Sight Group, SFX Only (+1/4) (45 Active Points); Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4), Only When In Contact With The Ground (-1/4), Limited Power Affected by Adjustment powers as an EC (-1/4)

 

In my 6e version of the same build I dropped it but I'm not sure why though (maybe assumed it was part of the base Must Pass Through... Limitation). If I were to update this version I would probably add it back in some form (Only Moving Across A Surface -1/4).

 

1) Teleportation 18m, No Relative Velocity, Position Shift, Safe Aquatic Teleport, x2 Increased Mass, x4 Noncombat, Invisible Power Effects (Inobvious to [sight Group]; +¼); Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-¼), Concentration (½ DCV; -¼), Unified Power (-¼) Real Cost: 34 6
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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

The problem is that the modifier is badly defined.

 

The first thing you have to ask, is what is the power doing? I mean, it is all well and good tacking together several modifiers on a power and just going for it, but that is the wrong way round for Hero characters. Is the character teleporting? Is he moving invisibly? Is he doing something else?

 

I mean, think about it: Can I 'normally' get there? Well, what does that mean? I would probably assume it means 'can I get there on my own with whatever I have with me at the moment'? If the answer is 'Yes, but normally it would take a while, and might involve skill rolls', well, you can get there so the power works. You have bought a power, paid points for it, and it gives you utility. You STILL need to know how it works: if you are teleporting then you can probably pass though a jail house door without opening it: if you are 'moving unseen' then you have to open it and set off any alarms rigged to the door. Clearly there is a difference in utility there: in one case you ACTUALLY have to cover the intervening ground (which might limit your effective range) and might trigger traps, or at least show up on CCTV, in the other you are just there. There is a clear difference in utility and therefore there should be a clear difference in cost.

 

Teleport is naturally indirect: you can pass through intervening objects. If this modifier simply means you have to be able to draw a line of effect (which may limit range but and prevent you getting into sealed areas then it is probably a -1/2. If you can get into sealed areas, but only if you could get into them if you had time, well, that is more useful, so probably -1/4. It limits you a bit, but not much. I'd rule that for -1/4 you can get there (following line of effect) and would get through any intervening barriers if you COULD get through any intervening barriers if you rolled a 3 without resorting to automatic success.

 

I might even rule it was worth a bit more, if it actually limited range a lot in practice, and it might.

 

If it means that you actually have to cover the ground but do so in some sort of superstealth, I'd probably be asking why you are not buying some sort of superstealth instead.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

The problem is that the modifier is badly defined.

 

The first thing you have to ask, is what is the power doing? I mean, it is all well and good tacking together several modifiers on a power and just going for it, but that is the wrong way round for Hero characters. Is the character teleporting? Is he moving invisibly? Is he doing something else?

 

I mean, think about it: Can I 'normally' get there? Well, what does that mean? I would probably assume it means 'can I get there on my own with whatever I have with me at the moment'? If the answer is 'Yes, but normally it would take a while, and might involve skill rolls', well, you can get there so the power works. You have bought a power, paid points for it, and it gives you utility. You STILL need to know how it works: if you are teleporting then you can probably pass though a jail house door without opening it: if you are 'moving unseen' then you have to open it and set off any alarms rigged to the door. Clearly there is a difference in utility there: in one case you ACTUALLY have to cover the intervening ground (which might limit your effective range) and might trigger traps, or at least show up on CCTV, in the other you are just there. There is a clear difference in utility and therefore there should be a clear difference in cost.

 

Teleport is naturally indirect: you can pass through intervening objects. If this modifier simply means you have to be able to draw a line of effect (which may limit range but and prevent you getting into sealed areas then it is probably a -1/2. If you can get into sealed areas, but only if you could get into them if you had time, well, that is more useful, so probably -1/4. It limits you a bit, but not much. I'd rule that for -1/4 you can get there (following line of effect) and would get through any intervening barriers if you COULD get through any intervening barriers if you rolled a 3 without resorting to automatic success.

 

I might even rule it was worth a bit more, if it actually limited range a lot in practice, and it might.

 

If it means that you actually have to cover the ground but do so in some sort of superstealth, I'd probably be asking why you are not buying some sort of superstealth instead.

 

It sounds like you have issues with the Limitation: Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4) which is from the core rules (5e & 6e).

 

Can Only Teleport To Places Character Could Normally Go (-1/2) from Dark Champions is arguably just an increase to the Must Pass... Limitation.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

It sounds like you have issues with the Limitation: Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-1/4) which is from the core rules (5e & 6e).

 

Can Only Teleport To Places Character Could Normally Go (-1/2) from Dark Champions is arguably just an increase to the Must Pass... Limitation.

 

I don't think that it particularly well defined, no: does the -1/4 'Must Pass through Intervening Space' prevent you from teleporting out of a jail cell which has bars that you could not get through without the power?

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

I don't think that it particularly well defined' date=' no: does the -1/4 'Must Pass through Intervening Space' prevent you from teleporting out of a jail cell which has bars that you could not get through without the power?[/quote']

 

Yes.

 

from 6e1 page 303:

 

Must Pass Through Intervening Space (-¼):

This Limitation represents a form of Teleportation that requires the character to actually pass through the intervening space physically. This can be a problem if barriers or other obstacles prevent the character from moving through that space. Characters cannot use Teleportation with this Limitation to escape from Entangles.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

The difference between 'must pass through intervening space' and 'must be able to reach' is this:

 

Character A is on the rooftop of a high building. He wants to go to the rooftop of another high building across the street. With 'must pass through intervening space' there can be no barrier between the two buildings. This is useful for things like a character who can briefly turn into light or a lightning bolt or something else where they can instantly go from A to B. With 'must be able to reach' he's going to have to either have a jump large enough to clear the street or flight or enough movement to run down to the first floor, run across the street, and run up to the roof of the other building (assuming there's no locked doors in the way). This is useful for representing superfast forms of movement the character already has.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

Yes.

 

from 6e1 page 303:

 

 

There's my point then: what is the difference between 'must pass through intervening space -1/4' and 'must be able to get to the target location normally -1/2'?, if the first one prevents you getting through barriers that have holes in them but you could not normally pass through?

 

Arguably if you can use 'Must be able to get there normally' to get through a door you could normally open without any problem, then it is MORE useful than 'must pass through intervening space' and so should not be more of a limitation. The devil is in the details.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

The difference between 'must pass through intervening space' and 'must be able to reach' is this:

 

Character A is on the rooftop of a high building. He wants to go to the rooftop of another high building across the street. With 'must pass through intervening space' there can be no barrier between the two buildings. This is useful for things like a character who can briefly turn into light or a lightning bolt or something else where they can instantly go from A to B. With 'must be able to reach' he's going to have to either have a jump large enough to clear the street or flight or enough movement to run down to the first floor, run across the street, and run up to the roof of the other building (assuming there's no locked doors in the way). This is useful for representing superfast forms of movement the character already has.

 

That makes sense, but if you can't pass through bars, because bars are a barrier, why is a skyscraper canyon not a barrier, assuming you can not fly or leap that far anyway?

 

It would make more sense to define it in game terms: must be able to draw line of effect: if you could hit it with a Blast, you can teleport there.

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

must pass through intervening space seems like merely a limitation of solidity. Meaning as long as nothing physically solid stop an unstraight line from joining the two locations, the destination could be hundreds of feet in the air.

 

must get there normally has to take into account movement types available to the character

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Re: "Can normally reach" Limitation

 

There's my point then: what is the difference between 'must pass through intervening space -1/4' and 'must be able to get to the target location normally -1/2'?, if the first one prevents you getting through barriers that have holes in them but you could not normally pass through?

 

Arguably if you can use 'Must be able to get there normally' to get through a door you could normally open without any problem, then it is MORE useful than 'must pass through intervening space' and so should not be more of a limitation. The devil is in the details.

 

I agree that it does seem a bit odd that an additional Limitation is the first place we see any mention of the concept of opening doors (regardless of whether a skill roll is involved). It sure seems like an example of a Limitation providing a net Advantage.

 

Also, the example Dark Champions build implies that the Must Pass.. Limitation needs to be in place first before taking Can Only Teleport To Places Character Could Normally Go.

(This & possibly That vs. This OR That).

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